Ret Paladin changes are nice but...

[Morally Grey Storm]

Don't try to use logic around here. Won't get you very far.

Could you try to use logic around here, for a change?

An additional single target ability to use at range as a trade off for keeping the same mobility would be perfectly fine.

No.

Retribution had a lot of ranged abilities along with inarguably better mobility in WoD and still faced dire problems with cahtching up in PvP.
Why would you want to have the worst mobility in game as a tradeoff for a little bit of range on one ability?
Because you didn't try to use logic?

[Swampmoose]

Could you try to use logic around here, for a change?


No.

Retribution had a lot of ranged abilities along with inarguably better mobility in WoD and still faced dire problems with cahtching up in PvP.
Why would you want to have the worst mobility in game as a tradeoff for a little bit of range on one ability?
Because you didn't try to use logic?

Because if they aren't going to increase mobility, it's better than nothing. Pretty simple concept.

Can you please get yourself banned again? Nothing you post has ever been worth reading.

[Schattenlied]

Jesus Christ. It had nothing to do with something you "didn't do" genius. Do you need me to recap it for you or rephrase it for you? Let me try.

You are too worried about your arbitrary cap on the number of ranged abilities we "should" have to realize that there are only 2 abilities that would have their range increased if CS is excluded from the list of abilities that would become ranged. Those two abilities are TV and BoJ.

That is one thought. If you still can't understand this...there's no saving you.

No, it's not.

"You are probably too lost to even recognize that with the exclusion of CS from his list"

The above can only mean one thing, you missed the fact that I had specifically stated that I knew CS was being left out. You otherwise are dense enough to think I can't count, and I'd prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just completely missed it rather than you being a total tool, but I see now that I was wrong.

And again, as I specified in the rest of the post you didn't read: Yes, that's 2 abilities, plus the 2 we already have that are ranged (Judge, HoW), we do not need 80% of our rotational abilities to be ranged as a melee spec, it makes absolutely no sense.

Because if they aren't going to increase mobility, it's better than nothing. Pretty simple concept.

Or, we can just get better mobility... The dev working on Paladins already said he likes Long Arm of the Law and is looking into giving it back to us, so obviously they aren't against increasing our mobility.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Then what was the reason they removed the mobility talent row on top of that?

Because they suck when it comes to Retribution balance and design, if history is anything to go by.

Was that because melee don't need mobility talent options?

No.
It happened for the same reason I just stated: they suck at balancing Retribution on a normal daily weekly monthly yearly basis.

They could've taken one or the other and it would've made more sense, but both? Makes no sense.

Yes, they make no sense sometimes.

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Because if they aren't going to increase mobility, it's better than nothing. Pretty simple concept.

Would you settle for a crutch, then?
An unneeded one, at that?
Why would you advocate for a crutch instead of advocating for a balanced, well-thought-out spec?
Because you didn't try to use logic around here?

Can you please get yourself banned again? Nothing you post has ever been worth reading.

No, and no.
But you could try to use logic around here, and to lower you snobbish nose a little bit.

[Swampmoose]

No, it's not.

"You are probably too lost to even recognize that with the exclusion of CS from his list"

The above can only mean one thing, you missed the fact that I had specifically stated that I knew CS was being left out. You otherwise are dense enough to think I can't count, and I'd prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just completely missed it rather than you being a total tool, but I see now that I was wrong.

And again, as I specified in the rest of the post you didn't read, that's 2 abilities, plus the 2 we already have that are ranged (Judge, HoW), we do not need 80% of our rotational abilities to be ranged as a melee spec, it makes absolutely no sense.

Dear god ...done with you. Already answered your last paragraph too.

Would you settle for a crutch, then?
An unneeded one, at that?
Why would you advocate for a crutch instead of advocating for a balanced, well-thought-out spec?
Because you didn't try to use logic around here?

Do you respond to all posts in a serious of stupid questions?
Or is is just most posts?
Is it some sort of inability to compose thoughts in complete sentences?
Or are you just doing it as some sort of means of sarcasm?
Maybe you just don't have anything worthwhile to say?

...go back to the warrior forums.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Swampsplaining at it's finest

[Schattenlied]

Dear god ...done with you.

Good, then get out.

Already answered your last paragraph too.

To which I also responded, and you conveniently ignored, which is why I brought it up again. It's far, far more than any other melee can do, which kinda paints us as not a melee anymore but a hybrid of both, which we are not supposed to be, Blizzard has said that themselves, that is the entire reason they took ranged abilities away from us in Legion, we are supposed to be melee focused, not a hybrid melee/ranged.

[Swampmoose]

Swampsplaining at it's finest

Ah yes, the 2nd dumbest thing you do. Merging multiple words in an attempt to be funny when you have yet again nothing to say. Literally everything you say makes me cringe.

[Deleted]

The fact Divine Steed still exists is the single biggest threat to the spec in my view. It made me take 2 breaks this expansion alone due to completely intolerable mobility causing rage quits, after playing any other melee (excepting perhaps dk, but that's a whole other story) it's borderline unplayable levels of slow.

I think I must have spent countless hours trying to catch up with people in m+ groups, or reaching adds as they die, or running back to bosses after aoe's. EVERY melee needs a certain base mobility level to function properly, Ret doesn't currently have that.

Do you want another xpac of the rest of your group having to afk 20 seconds between packs or start without you because you can't keep up? As after every pack everyone proceeds to blink/sprint/leap/charge/grapple/teleport/dash/glide/run generally faster towards the next objective while u pull a pony out of your ass for a couple of seconds (which is still the most ridiculous visual in game) and then proceed to run at default speed for the next minute?

Dps doesn't matter if you aren't on your target. Unless they buffed you to the point you oneshot anything you connect with, which is equally stupid.

WoD Ret was best Ret. It has issues, but it had a passive 30% runspeed/7 sec sprint/on demand sprint with low cooldown and much more versatility/ranged attacks than this snail tied to the ground by a rock class fantasy.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Do you respond to all posts in a serious of stupid questions?
Or is is just most posts?
Is it some sort of inability to compose thoughts in complete sentences?
Or are you just doing it as some sort of means of sarcasm?
Maybe you just don't have anything worthwhile to say?

Do you constantly act like a giant frothing bag of pig manhoods?
Or is it just most posts?
Is it some sort of inability to act slightly less than snobbish?
Or are you trying real hard to act condescending but fail miserably each time for no apparent reason?
Maybe you just have some kind of a complex or an altered state of mind which makes you think you're shiny with these responds?
Because you are not.

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Ah yes, the 2nd dumbest thing you do. Merging multiple words in an attempt to be funny when you have yet again nothing to say. Literally everything you say makes me cringe.

Which is a good thing: snobs must cringe. Therefore, I did a good thing while pointing out your swampsplaining.
Light Side - 1 , Swam Side - 0

[Swampmoose]

Do you constantly act like a giant frothing bag of pig manhoods?
Or is it just most posts?
Is it some sort of inability to act slightly less than snobbish?
Or are you trying real hard to act condescending but fail miserably each time for no apparent reason?
Maybe you just have some kind of a complex or an altered state of mind which makes you think you're shiny with these responds?
Because you are not.

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Which is a good thing: snobs must cringe. Therefore, I did a good thing while pointing out your swampsplaining.
Light Side - 1 , Swam Side - 0

When you make a post worth a damn, I'll give you a decent response. You've proven over 4,000 times, you can't. All you manage to post is your 'its the end of the world and ret is forever doomed' whining that no one cares to read.

Please refrain from insulting other forum users.

[Talvindius]

@OP it's still in alpha, you need to wait another like 4 or 5 months for mid to late beta before you can accurately determine whether or not youre satisfied with BFA Ret.

Calm down in the meantime.

[Morally Grey Storm]

When you make a post worth a damn, I'll give you a decent response. You've proven over 4,000 times, you can't.

Did you give a decent response to anyone, ever?
So far I am not entirely sure Shattenlied feels like you did treat him with any decency in this very thread(not to mention me), which leads to quite singular conclusion: you're a rude person and you like being rude and unrestrained with your verbal forms.
You've yet to prove otherwise.

[Ulthane]

Well based on the feedback from Thete, Solsacra and other big ret paladins on the wowhead stuff I can take from it that so far it's generally positive feedback. From what I have seen I could say the following should actually occur, some mechanically some cosmetic honestly.

Abilities
-Hammer of Wrath: Baseline, hits harder. Does not activate during wings.
-Blade of Wrath: Proc made baseline into Blade of Justice.
-Crusader Strike: CD reverted or old Fires of Justice effect baked in.
-Divine Steed: Now has 2 charges.

Talents
ROW 1
-Zeal: More depth or more effect on what we are doing. If Auto attacks are a thing maybe these swings can have a higher proc rate for Blade of Justice or reduce it's cd a bit per swing or work with lowering Judgment cd per hit.
--Example 1: Your next 3 auto attacks hit 100% faster and lower Blade of Justice cd by .5 seconds each OR Judgment cd by .5 seconds each.
--Example 2: Your next 3 auto attacks hit 100% faster and have a higher than normal chance to reset the cd of Blade of Justice OR Judgment.

-Execution Sentence: Rename to Exorcism, better holy blasting animation.

Row 2: This row though good right now COULD use the most work in terms of flavor.
-The Fires of Justice: Replaced with the Templar's Strike ability that was seen in uncategorized spells. http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=198036/...trike#comments Tweaked of course but would be a fun option for players.
-Blade of Wrath: Blade of Justice now deals Holy Damage and has higher PPM.
-Execution Sentence: Hammer of Wrath is now usable at targets at 30% health and now is usable during Avenging Wrath/Crusade.

Row 3: Fine, maybe instant cast Repentance.

Row 4:
-Divine Vengeance: Feels VERY underwhelming. Honestly what if it were to reduce the cost of Divine Storm to 1 and maybe increase Divine Storm damage?
-Consecration: Needs to be able to follow the caster, so once you use it it follows you. In addition there may need to be a shorter CD.
-Wake of Ashes: Reduce cd to 30 seconds.

Row 5
-Knight Templar: Functions as the Prot paladin version.

Row 6
-Selfless Healer: may need to buff the healing component of it.
-Justicar's Vengeance: It's "Fine" but could use with maybe 3 cost instead of 5?
-Word of Glory: Needs to either have shorter CD, no cd OR just not cost any Holy Power.

Row 7: So far all this needs is proper balance so we actually have a choice.
-Divine Purpose: Increase proc chance to 25 - 30%?
-Crusade: We will have to see. Can't make a judgement call on this yet imo.
-Inquisition: Power of this needs to reflect Crusade.

Ultimately Crusade is the tuning fork. You buff Crusade you buff the other two, you nerf Crusade you determine if you have to nerf the other two. Crusade as it... well its very controlling as a talent for us. Would be nice to just use it as an option if you want burst via Sustained or procs.

[Reith]

Hell of a lot more than every other melee class can do.

Dude, every other melee class has better tools for that. Warriors can Charge back in, Shamans have more ranged attacks, DKs have ranged attacks and DOTs. Ret has judgment and a 3 second horse available every 45 seconds. Cavalier sucks for progression in most situations.

[Samuraijake]

Is this just a fix rather than something new?

Ive played my Paladin since BC but persevered through bad and good times. Legion is the first time I have felt utterly bored with it.

I seen the changes on the alpha and got excited then realised they are just reverting us back to how it should have been yet taking more away.

?

1. its alpha.

2. it was mentioned that the azerite gear (that provides extra traits/ability modifications) will be filling the gaps of missing functionality. Of which none of us even know whats all included in future azerite gear.

3. Its alpha.

[Reith]

2. it was mentioned that the azerite gear (that provides extra traits/ability modifications) will be filling the gaps of missing functionality. Of which none of us even know whats all included in future azerite gear.

This is what I'm hoping for, but I'd rather see what they're doing with it sooner than later. Fill in some of the missing context as to why Divine Steed was nerfed, possibly. Maybe they'll make movement options built into the Azerite armor for Ret, I don't know.

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Oh and "The team wants to double down on strengths rather than emphasize weaknesses." if this is true, either buff Word of Glory and Selfless Healer or get rid of the half-assed healing talents already, for the love of all that is Holy. Seriously.

[Schattenlied]

Warriors can Charge back in

Not a ranged attack, that's a gap closer.

Their ranged attack is heroic throw, it has a 6s cooldown and does less damage than Enhancement's Lightning Bolt.

Shamans have more ranged attacks.

Enhancement Shaman?

Let's see... They have... Lightning bolt, which does pathetic damage, takes 5 casts to do the same damage Judgment does in 1 hit.... And that's it. Unless we're counting abilities with a 10y range, which is a hair outside of melee... I don't think any shaman would really call those "ranged attacks"...

The only other thing they have is a 3 min CD (talent) that makes Stormstrike and auto attacks have a 30y range for 15 seconds.

DKs have ranged attacks and DOTs.

Their DoTs do tiny damage, especially for Frost, Howling Blast does tiny damage except in AoE.

Death Coil hits decently but they have no way to generate RP outside of melee range, so they can only cast it twice before they need to be in melee range to do literally anything again, assuming they had enough RP to cast it at all before they got out of melee range in the first place.

Ret has judgment

Which alone does about as much DPS at range as the other class' options, because it's only limiter is a cooldown and it hits pretty damn hard.

and a 3 second horse available every 45 seconds. Cavalier sucks for progression in most situations.

Yes, our mobility is awful, we do not have the tools we need to be an effective melee, so our mobility needs to be improved, we don't need to become a ranged hybrid.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Dude, every other melee class has better tools for that. Warriors can Charge back in, Shamans have more ranged attacks, DKs have ranged attacks and DOTs. Ret has judgment and a 3 second horse available every 45 seconds. Cavalier sucks for progression in most situations.

No.

1. its alpha.

I strongly urge you not to refer to "itsalpha" argument.

Yes, our mobility is awful, we do not have the tools we need to be an effective melee, so our mobility needs to be improved, we don't need to become a ranged hybrid.

Don't try to use logic here.
Or you might summon Swampie and he'll cuss at you

[Daffan]

Brung back Empowered Divine Storm please

And the old spinny Templar's Verdict animation.

This is important to me.