[SPOILERS]: Saurfang Stockades Dialogue

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I raid Antorus twice a week and I never, ever heard it myself. I doubt it's in the finished game. Maybe you need to kill Coven before him which we never do.

It's in there. There were forum posts about it when the raid went live. And I most definitely have heard it myself, on live server.

Also why trust literally the least trustworthy member of the least trustworthy race in the setting?

Absolutely should not trust him, but even devious people speak truth sometimes. I put it more in the category of 'stuff Blizz wants us to think about' - teasers, not guaranteed truths. Ask yourself this: Why did Blizz write those lines for him? What were they up to? Could be just a red herring, something they're doing to have fun with us.

[Jastall]

It's in there. There were forum posts about it when the raid went live. And I most definitely have heard it myself, on live server.

Absolutely should not trust him, but even devious people speak truth sometimes. I put it more in the category of 'stuff Blizz wants us to think about' - teasers, not guaranteed truths. Ask yourself this: Why did Blizz write those lines for him? What were they up to? Could be just a red herring, something they're doing to have fun with us.

Of course it's a red herring. He gains nothing by telling us this, and nothing in the story indicates Sylvanas wanted the position. And if there's one character that I trust on the subject of Sylvanas even less than Sylvanas herself, it's Varimathras.

I don't even like Sylvanas but having her be behind her nomination would be a total ass pull.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Oh my, you really did create an account just to post this. Like, for real.

- - - Updated - - -



I find myself agreeing with most of your points but your last paragraph makes me ask: it can seriously be seen necessary for Saurfang to literally turn his back to "Sylvanas' Horde", which nonetheless remains the same Horde he fought alongside for entire decades, over mostly offended feelings? It's this truly enough to start seeing anything so immensely great about Anduin, even though Saurfang, so far, seems to focus more on the "inexperienced pup" side of Anduin rather than his good morals, words and intentions?

We don't know enough to say what all Saurfang is thinking. I don't think Christie Golden or Blizz will have him do anything to intentionally hurt the Horde. Even in what leaked info we have, he is still aiding the party there to rescue prisoners. His grief is with Sylvanas and her leadership, not with the Horde itself.

Why does he not choose to leave with them? How can we know? Perhaps he thinks there is something strategic to be gained by meeting with Anduin. Maybe he never plans to meet with Anduin and is just using that as a ruse to give the others time. Maybe he suspects Sylvanas is being influenced by whispers and wants freedom to investigate. All we can do right now is hope that Blizz doesn't completely suck at writing for one of the Horde's great heroes, and that it all makes sense in the end. The story could still be great with Saurfang and Sylvanas at odds, as long as neither is made to be stupidly out of character, imho.

[Qualia]

I find myself agreeing with most of your points but your last paragraph makes me ask: it can seriously be seen necessary for Saurfang to literally turn his back to "Sylvanas' Horde", which nonetheless remains the same Horde he fought alongside for entire decades, over mostly offended feelings? It's this truly enough to start seeing anything so immensely great about Anduin, even though Saurfang, so far, seems to focus more on the "inexperienced pup" side of Anduin rather than his good morals, words and intentions?

I think it's rather to hard say if it's truly necessary because we are talking about emotional matters - those don't always make sense logically. What was Saurfang reflecting about during his imprisoned days? Did he think about Anduin's "My father gave everything for the Alliance. The question is, are you willing to do the same?" and questioned himself if he would be willing to throw away his Blood Oath (again) to bring Horde back to what he thought it should be (probably some sort of Thrall's Horde in its glory days)? Did he recalled what Sylvanas did that he disagreed with, together with her insults, and replayed it in his mind over and over? We don't share the same culture as the Orcs and I'm not a writer, so I can't say that I sympathize with Saurfang and know exactly what he should have thought about, but I think it wouldn't be strange for his brooding days inside the cell to affect his view of Sylvanas negatively. And Saurfang wasn't perfectly happy with how Sylvanas rule to begin with.

Moreover, we still don't know what Saurfang is going to do, or what the content of the talk between him and Anduin will be, but I don't think he is going to ally himself with Anduin and turn his back into the Horde yet. I think Saurfang might have improved his opinion of Anduin a bit, from a boy that knows nothing to someone he's willing to talk to, but he isn't seeing Anduin as anything great yet. When Saurfang said he won't be returning to Sylvanas' Horde, he probably was implying that he wouldn't be fighting for Sylvanas anymore, but I think it's fair to say that he might not be thinking that he will leave the Horde to fend for itself, but that he is trying to find a way to bring the Horde back to the right track for its sake instead. Talking to Anduin might or might not be a part of the preparation for it - maybe some discussions about what the other party think of the Alliance people, of the Horde, and of the war itself? Is he trying to discern how far Anduin will push the Horde if he is going to go against Sylvanas? Maybe he is there to answer Anduin's "are you willing to do the same" question in a calmer manner (instead of screaming "MY LIFE FOR THE HORDE" when they talked last time)? Maybe he thinks it's not honorable enough to sneak off when your capturers have been treating you with respect? All they talked about is to be revealed later, I guess, but I think after the brief interaction with Anduin and days sitting inside his cell, Saurfang is seeing Anduin more like a leader of a race / faction than just an inexperienced boy now.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Of course it's a red herring. He gains nothing by telling us this, and nothing in the story indicates Sylvanas wanted the position. And if there's one character that I trust on the subject of Sylvanas even less than Sylvanas herself, it's Varimathras.

I don't even like Sylvanas but having her be behind her nomination would be a total ass pull.

We already know Sylvanas isn’t behind it due to the before the storm preview

[bloodmoth13]

Yeah, I know. That's why Blizzard isn't going to go with something sensible and unique. Instead, we get to be "saturday morning villains", the Alliance doesn't have any agency because they can only "react" to the big, bad, Horde, and everyone gets to feel like shit!

I dont see anyone being happy about the horde attacking first except the anti-sylvanas crowd, who come to think of it would probably be the LEAST satisfied group simply because tehir severe hatred of her character.
alliance would feel like pacifist punching bags if the horde strikes first and the horde would feel like they are repeating MoP story arc. The alliance still wants to avenge theramore and broken shore, you can dismiss theramore as garrosh's action and broken shore as a misunderstanding, but they are great threads to pull on to organically produce faction conflict.

Its just too ridiculous to believe that they would start the story off with 'horde evil, alliance good' again when its far too easy to actually write something satisfying for both factions that isnt shit.

[Dagoth Ur]

I think it's rather to hard say if it's truly necessary because we are talking about emotional matters - those don't always make sense logically. What was Saurfang reflecting about during his imprisoned days? Did he think about Anduin's "My father gave everything for the Alliance. The question is, are you willing to do the same?" and questioned himself if he would be willing to throw away his Blood Oath (again) to bring Horde back to what he thought it should be (probably some sort of Thrall's Horde in its glory days)? Did he recalled what Sylvanas did that he disagreed with, together with her insults, and replayed it in his mind over and over? We don't share the same culture as the Orcs and I'm not a writer, so I can't say that I sympathize with Saurfang and know exactly what he should have thought about, but I think it wouldn't be strange for his brooding days inside the cell to affect his view of Sylvanas negatively. And Saurfang wasn't perfectly happy with how Sylvanas rule to begin with.

This is what I could somewhat accept as explanation for what's going through his head. It could be that ever since Thrall left and with Vol'jin's unfortunate fate, in his mind Horde has been straying away and away from what he thinks it should be. So disappointment and anger could have piled up and he's acting out driven by emotions instead of logic. Combine that with his old age and years of fighting for this idea of the Horde and it makes sense.

But I still think he's going rather stupidly about it. I mean he hasn't even tried to present his case to Thrall, Baine, Rokhan (or whoever leads the Darkspears) who would likely listen to what he has to say. Abandoning all the people he's responsible for and the Horde he fought for for decades because he's mad at Sylvanas is just out of character for him imo and isn't helping solve anything. Why go to Anduin for help when you didn't even try solving it in the house? I mean it's not like Sylvanas has unanimous and undisputed support within the Horde.

[OIS]

No intention to patronize, but there is a difference. Saurfang remains loyal in his heart to the people of the Horde and will act in what he believes to be their best interests, even if it means disobeying Sylvanas. You may disagree with his reasoning, but his motives remain consistent with the character he has always had. He hasn't changed; the Horde has.

How did the Horde change?

[ls-]

How did the Horde change?

Well, fighting a battle that you can't win and dying is no longer considered good, smart and, most importantly, honourable.

The Horde that retreats (pathetic), saves civilians, salvages as much as possible and tries to kill as many enemy combatants as possible along the way is not the Horde Saurfang signed up for.

-- edit #1

Sylvanas: Let's use Blight to buy us some time to retreat, save civilians and stuff.
Saurfang: No, let's fight and die! There's no honour in fleeing!
Sylvanas: WTF? Wasting your life is BS, there's no glory in death.
Saurfang: B-but.. Honour?!
Sylvanas: Fuck your honour, jeez...
Saurfang: NOT. MY. HORDE!

[Deleted]

He hasn't changed; the Horde has.

Actually, the current Horde is exactly how Thrall idealized. Home of ragtag exiles.

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Well, fighting a battle that you can't win and dying is no longer considered good, smart and, most importantly, honourable.

The Horde that retreats (pathetic), saves civilians, salvages as much as possible and tries to kill as many enemy combatants as possible along the way is not the Horde Saurfang signed up for.

Then why Saurfang didn't left when the Old Horde retreated back in the Second War, when Thrall exiled the Horde to Kalimdor, or when Vol'jin ordered the retreat after Broken Shores?

Wait, he went suicidal maniac during Legion, perhaps the problem falls with Saurfang and not the Horde?

[OIS]

Well, fighting a battle that you can't win and dying is no longer considered good, smart and, most importantly, honourable.

The Horde that retreats (pathetic), saves civilians, salvages as much as possible and tries to kill as many enemy combatants as possible along the way is not the Horde Saurfang signed up for.

-- edit #1

Sylvanas: Let's use Blight to buy us some time to retreat, save civilians and stuff.
Saurfang: No, let's fight and die! There's no honour in fleeing!
Sylvanas: WTF? Wasting your life is BS, there's no glory in death.
Saurfang: B-but.. Honour?!
Sylvanas: Fuck your honour, jeez...
Saurfang: NOT. MY. HORDE!

[ls-]

Then why Saurfang didn't left when the Old Horde retreated back in the Second War, when Thrall exiled the Horde to Kalimdor, or when Vol'jin ordered the retreat after Broken Shores?

Wait, he went suicidal maniac during Legion, perhaps the problem falls with Saurfang and not the Horde?

Just to be clear, I've never liked Varok, but even I think the way his char is being "developed" now is awful.

[Zulkhan]

I don't even like Sylvanas but having her be behind her nomination would be a total ass pull.

Not even an asspull, is utterly impossible. The Before the Storm excerpt showed Sylvanas' inner thoughts regarding the Warchief nomination and she's pissed about the whole situation just as much as her haters. Sylvanas may lie to other people but she can't lie to herself.

All they talked about is to be revealed later, I guess, but I think after the brief interaction with Anduin and days sitting inside his cell, Saurfang is seeing Anduin more like a leader of a race / faction than just an inexperienced boy now.

I have my doubts about that. Saurfang's unimpressed opinion of the human King sounded steady and slightly harsh still when he was questioned by Anduin. The fact that when Saurfang asked "What price have you paid for your people?" Anduin replied with "My father gave everything for the Alliance" is there to prove how the son is still overshadowed by the father and his deeds. The whole point of his 7.2 questline was showing how Anduin doubted if he could ever be like that, a doubt Anduin can't really shrug off until he'll face a true challenge testing his resolve.

Sure, it may be possible that Anduin's words potentially triggered depressing and lonely thoughts in Saurfang's mind, leading him to say the things he says. But I pretty much don't see anything in Anduin that an old-school Orc could genuinely respect, since Orcs respect actions over words and intentions. And I don't see Anduin being a kind jailer even remotely enough to earn that respect.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Not even an asspull, is utterly impossible. The Before the Storm excerpt showed Sylvanas' inner thoughts regarding the Warchief nomination and she's pissed about the whole situation just as much as her haters. Sylvanas may lie to other people but she can't lie to herself.



I have my doubts about that. Saurfang's unimpressed opinion of the human King sounded steady and slightly harsh still when he was questioned by Anduin. The fact that when Saurfang asked "What price have you paid for your people?" Anduin replied with "My father gave everything for the Alliance" is there to prove how the son is still overshadowed by the father and his deeds. The whole point of his 7.2 questline was showing how Anduin doubted if he could ever be like that, a doubt Anduin can't really shrug off until he'll face a true challenge testing his resolve.

Sure, it may be possible that Anduin's words potentially triggered depressing and lonely thoughts in Saurfang's mind, leading him to say the things he says. But I pretty much don't see anything in Anduin that an old-school Orc could genuinely respect, since Orcs respect actions over words and intentions. And I don't see Anduin being a kind jailer even remotely enough to earn that respect.

If anything, I think Anduin's words may have reminded Saurfang that Anduin's father once showed him kindness by allowing him to recover his own son's body. I don't believe Saurfang would betray the Horde for that - or for anything, for that matter - but I do believe it might influence him to give Anduin the courtesy of a listen. Out of respect for his father's gesture those years ago.

[Zulkhan]

If anything, I think Anduin's words may have reminded Saurfang that Anduin's father once showed him kindness by allowing him to recover his own son's body. I don't believe Saurfang would betray the Horde for that - or for anything, for that matter - but I do believe it might influence him to give Anduin the courtesy of a listen. Out of respect for his father's gesture those years ago.

Sure, but "courtesy" is the key word. It wouldn't be something earned by Anduin himself.

[Arrashi]

Sure, but "courtesy" is the key word. It wouldn't be something earned by Anduin himself.

But what if anduin inherited genetic honor of his father ? And now honorfang feels obliged to aid him in name of honor and restoring his honor ?

[ls-]

But what if anduin inherited genetic honor of his father ? And now honorfang feels obliged to aid him in name of honor and restoring his honor ?

Noice one

[Ash123]

But what if anduin inherited genetic honor of his father ? And now honorfang feels obliged to aid him in name of honor and restoring his honor ?

I am afraid that this is what would happen, given WOW's tradition of loving lawful good characters.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

But what if anduin inherited genetic honor of his father ? And now honorfang feels obliged to aid him in name of honor and restoring his honor ?

Humor aside, there is a certain symmetry to it being about son of Saurfang and son of Varian. When Saurfang sees Varian's son, surely he thinks of his own, and the respect shown by Anduin's father that day. He might also think of the last time Sylvanas mentioned his son, while threatening to make him into what his son had been. One family has treated him and his with respect; the other clearly doesn't.

None of that would make him betray the Horde, but it surely affects his thinking.

[Kallisto]

Well, fighting a battle that you can't win and dying is no longer considered good, smart and, most importantly, honourable.

The Horde that retreats (pathetic), saves civilians, salvages as much as possible and tries to kill as many enemy combatants as possible along the way is not the Horde Saurfang signed up for.

-- edit #1

Sylvanas: Let's use Blight to buy us some time to retreat, save civilians and stuff.
Saurfang: No, let's fight and die! There's no honour in fleeing!
Sylvanas: WTF? Wasting your life is BS, there's no glory in death.
Saurfang: B-but.. Honour?!
Sylvanas: Fuck your honour, jeez...
Saurfang: NOT. MY. HORDE!

Funny thing is people are trying to link Sylvanas to Garrosh and Garrosh's plan would have been the same as Saurfangs in this situation. No blight and rush the Alliance attackers in some death or glory suicide rush. (Though for Garrosh it likely would have been Forsaken front, then Blood elves and trolls, then Tauren and then Orcs wipe up what's left). But Sylvanas here is being pragmatic, use the weapon that would best bring victory or lessen the defeat. Make sure enemies deaths are high yours are low.