How 'Casualization' Is Saving WoW For Raiders

[Deleted]

A lot of people here, specially the Master Loot crowd, forget that in WoW the "middle ground" is way way wider then you think.

Of course a stable guild with mature member with 100% attendence, with 100% chance that the guild will raid till the new expansion can gain great benefit of ML, because eventually everyone will have the same loot and you will clear raid a lot faster. In this scenario, Master Loot seems to be the only reasonable choice.

But, but, how many guilds can be identified with the above?

The vast majority of Mythic Guilds are in the middle ground, and that means one or more of the following things happen: they guild members does not share goals, you have selfish people (also hidden); those people will sooner or later start drama; you don't have 100% full roster every raid, leading to the necessity of bringing outside players, with every consequnces in startegy and loot terms; the guild is very prone to disban, because you have half player very good that "carry" half people.

I cuold go on, but the point is clear: a full mature and stable Mythic Guild is not the rule, but the exception.

Blizzard doesn't care about the mature X guild and that X cuold clear Mythic in 3 less week if he was able to give gear with ML to the player who needed more. They care about the majority of players that can see Personal Loot as a incentive of stepping into a selective raiding scenario. THEN, after the player is matured, he cuold join a mature Guild where, even with Personal Loot, people are willing to trade gear for the greater good.

And yeah, i will be honest, this change will also make guilds take more time to clear stuff, and more time = more sub = more money (honestly i don't see this as a bad thing since they are not a Charity Society).

[kamuimac]

If you think master loot is the worst system in all of WoW, then you're probably someone that doesn't join a guild, and keeps socializing with other players to a bare minimum.

A mod should close this thread, because OP has no idea what the heck his on about.

master loot is also the reason why a a huge part of plaerbase dont join guild - because more then progression they value fair chance of loot.

thats why people mostly moved to pugging because why deal with loot coouncil consisting of people who behave like 13 year olds over each piece of loot when they can go pugging and have fait chance to get even bis loot on first raid night.

guilds went to far with loot systems and now karma is biting them back

[Emerald Archer]

and nobody is discussing it - why do you people keep brining this argument when everybody agrees with you about its convinience ?

even devs argree that is most convinient gearing up method - to the point that its too convinient artificially making progression faster

thats why they remove it - because you went with it too far making raids look to trivial

I understand why they're doing it, and am not arguing against their decision, while I have concerns, that's all they are. Concerns. I'll wait and see how it turns out. I'm just pointing out that people who think it has no value, or is an unfair toxic system, are incorrect in saying that's the case for all uses of it.

[kamuimac]

And yeah, i will be honest, this change will also make guilds take more time to clear stuff, and more time = more sub = more money (honestly i don't see this as a bad thing since they are not a Charity Society).

or it will mean that blizzard could tune content lower because people won be geared to teeth in bis in first 3-4 weeks.

the overall dififculty will be similiar just mechanics can be made much more forgiving

[Deleted]

As someone who started playing WoW in Vanilla who has played long enough, and is old enough to know Vanilla was extremely casual friendly (and also dogshit as an MMO)

Stopped reading after that, as this completely disqualifies you from being considered a mature person who's actually interested in other's opinion.

You're just looking for guys who will agree with you. No value added whatsoever.

[Gaidax]

Vanilla was a casual MMO at the time and in hindsight it was pretty terrible, but other MMOs were even worse many of which were basically ‘Leveling The Game’

[Daffan]

Hardcore raiders should go Classic anyway, where you can still farm 40 man raids for months and not get any gear upgrades at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if casuals went there too.

Getting upgrades every month is better experience then having 0 point to play because Blizzard hands out welfare and catchup each patch.

Come back when your level 120 to face me.

[Raelbo]

First step to implement true "casualization" would be to stop making systems that give advantage to nolifers. Legion with AP farming, legendary farming and mythic+ loot with no weekly lockout or cap opened a can of worms where Joe casual could not keep up with Bob the nolife. It was especially egregious during the first half of Legion when hardcore people boasted 1k+ maw of souls runs. Many others couldn't force themselves or enjoy this new "meta" so they called it quits. They were used from tbc to wod to cap their daily / weekly routine then move onto "having their life" and Legion suddenly told them "no, bro, you're never really DONE for the day / week".

Sorry, but I completely disagree with you here.

Firstly you need to start with the acceptance that nolifers will always try to find a way to spend more time playing in order to derive a benefit. The key isn't to try and prevent this from happening, but rather to direct how it happens. The simple fact is that if Joe casual isn't prepared to sink as much time into the game as BoB the nolife, then he needs to put on his big boy trousers and accept that he isn't going to be able to keep up. And that is OK.

The problem is when people like Joe casual believe they're entitled to have what Bob nolife has, or feel they have to compete. It's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with the player trying to play the game wrong. WoW is not a "winner takes all" game. It's a mass participation game in which everyone wins to a greater or lesser extent. It's a bit like a marathon.

Think of the New York marathon: 50K entrants, with the winner finishing in just over two hours, but everyone has 3 times that long to actually finish. You don't have to compete with the leaders to make participation in the event worthwhile. What you do need to do is set your own goals and objectives appropriately, according to your level of commitment and time available to train.

This idea that we have to have a cap on our daily/weekly routine is about as retarded as the idea that a marathon runner should have a cap on his daily/weekly training routine. Obviously there is a minimum level, but the maximum should be left open ended to allow each individual to decide for themselves where they want to draw their own personal line. When you put a cap in place that works only for a tiny fraction of the participants. For the vast majority it is either seen as a mandatory and onerous requirement (think MoP dailies) or as a frustrating roadblock.

The AP "grind" is the best system they have come up with to date tbh. While in theory you can spend infinite time grinding AP to get an infinite advantage, in practice the diminishing returns ensures that no matter how much time Bob the nolife spends grinding AP, he'll never get more than a handful of levels advantage of Joe casual. Enough, certainly, to give him an advantage when tackling super hard content before anyone else, but not enough that Joe casual will never be able to do all the content, just a bit later (or maybe only on a lower difficulty).

If you read all that as "no, bro, you're never really DONE for the day / week" then you're reading it wrong. It's actually "bro, you're done when you want to be done for the week".

[JackWest]

First step to implement true "casualization" would be to stop making systems that give advantage to nolifers. Legion with AP farming, legendary farming and mythic+ loot with no weekly lockout or cap opened a can of worms where Joe casual could not keep up with Bob the nolife. It was especially egregious during the first half of Legion when hardcore people boasted 1k+ maw of souls runs. Many others couldn't force themselves or enjoy this new "meta" so they called it quits. They were used from tbc to wod to cap their daily / weekly routine then move onto "having their life" and Legion suddenly told them "no, bro, you're never really DONE for the day / week".

Question: why does casual joe needs the gear the world first raiders have farmed(example: the maw of souls farm in EN times). You didnt need all traits to do world quests, pet battles and lfr/normal. Bob on the other hand needed it, as mythic requires every min/max you can get. And dont give me that ‘coz then joe cant get into pug coz people ask for bob’s gear.’ Thats supply and demand and even if you timegate/block gear progress joe will always be behind bob, thus not being picked either way
Its an MMO. Ofc people who play more will be ahead. If time’s an issue may I suggest moba games instead?

[Emerald Archer]

and nobody is discussing it - why do you people keep brining this argument when everybody agrees with you about its convinience ?

Also ??? The people I've tagged all disagree with it being good.

[HuxNeva]

I would be in favor of he removal of Master Loot, even of tradable loot, but the OP's illogical wordsalad doesn't contribute to that opinion.

[rda]

Sorry, but I completely disagree with you here.

Firstly you need to start with the acceptance that nolifers will always try to find a way to spend more time playing in order to derive a benefit. The key isn't to try and prevent this from happening, but rather to direct how it happens. The simple fact is that if Joe casual isn't prepared to sink as much time into the game as BoB the nolife, then he needs to put on his big boy trousers and accept that he isn't going to be able to keep up. And that is OK.

I don't think anybody disagrees with what you are saying here. The person you are replying to is citing specific advantages he'd rather not have in the game. Here is an advantage that is OK to get by playing a lot: learning to play better.

[Allenseiei]

You started off making a good point, but then (sadly) assumed casuals are bad

But really, I do agree. This door swings both ways though. Loads of times you see people geared in hc/mythic raids which terribly underperform. This could mean they've been boosted, paid or unpaind, or they simply don't care about some of the content, but need to get their quick hc dungeon done for their essences or need that +15 for their chest. You could say the same here then: If people do not care about casuals, or trivial content, then for the love of everybody's enjoyment... stop doing it.

I'm pretty sure the amount of casuals really caring about the hardcore playerbase is very low, just like the hardcore playerbase caring about the casuals. The most vocal people seem to be people who assume they are 'hardcore' or just trolls, and we are letting them get the better of us :|

That was not my intention although I see why it can be seen that way. My way of thinking is that people who have that ilvl and still do only mythic 10-15 usually fit in to what I am saying. Casual players who have those ilvls but are good and care about learning their class, probably dont stick to low mythic key runs, which removes them from the sample i tried to represent, in the same way there are mythic raiders who fall behind my representation of them and are not included in what i said.

[munkeyinorbit]

Casuals are wannabe hardcore and favor that game design but they don't even realize it yet.

Only after they receive all their welfare and catchup loot and then realize there is nothing left to do they think how stupid championing their cause was, or not and they are doomed to a life of farming LFR to kill LFR faster next week.

Bro, do U even RETENTION?

You must be new to WoW. The last time that Blizzard listened to the "hardcorz" (that is the people who thought WotLK was too easy and didn't want to share with casuals) we had Cata. Do you even remember the shitpost that Ghostcrawler made when there were all the tears about how hard the game was. "Heroics are too hard, Heroic 10 man is impossible" the hardcorz screamed and Ghostcralwer made the infamous L2P post. Blizzard even decided that the community was too shit to have a raid in 4.1 and instead gave us 2 dungeons with raid level loot in it to help us along. They actually said that. The community wasn't as progressed enough as they would have liked so they didn't add a raid to 4.1. Then they scraped a raid and then handed us the DS shit. It was worse than WoD.

We (those of us who actually played) shall never forget.

[Cyero]

Says vanilla was casual friendly and blizzard listens to hardcore players, catering them for many years... Seems like your making a shit post because there will be very little that will agree with either of those things.

Master loot has been perfectly fine for 13 years and its pretty much restricted to guilds now, if you have a problem with your guilds loot rules, just fucking leave....
Vanilla with its time requirement to be attuned to everything and raid was not casual friendly at all & shitting on vanilla calling it a shit MMO? why did it break all records and have millions waiting to reply it if it was so bad....
From Wrath onwards, which is more than half the game, blizzard has been introducing systems to help/cater casual players....

You do realize blizzard removing master loot is because of the 1% doing split runs and shit like that, not to help the 99% casual playerbase?

-5/10

- - - Updated - - -



If they sacrifice their time the same amount, they will get stuff out of it. You shouldn't expect to turn up half the time and be rewarded for it, if that is your mind set, organised raiding isn't for you.

Wasn't the entire point of World of warcraft was casual friendliness? that's how it manages to murder the majority of it's competition when it was launched?

[kamuimac]

Also ??? The people I've tagged all disagree with it being good.

jest because its convinient it doesnt mean its good for playerbase overall

thats why they disagree

- - - Updated - - -

Wasn't the entire point of World of warcraft was casual friendliness? that's how it manages to murder the majority of it's competition when it was launched?

it was - but devs managing game atm are not devs from back then

they went full retard mode on supporting only hardcore playerbase killing the game in the process.

now they made 180 turn - all shit like islands allied races and all other stuff is clearly aimed as casual content.

ML change is showing clear change in game direction. wouldnt surpirsed me if in month they announce removal of mythic raiding from game

- - - Updated - - -

You must be new to WoW. The last time that Blizzard listened to the "hardcorz" (that is the people who thought WotLK was too easy and didn't want to share with casuals) we had Cata. Do you even remember the shitpost that Ghostcrawler made when there were all the tears about how hard the game was. "Heroics are too hard, Heroic 10 man is impossible" the hardcorz screamed and Ghostcralwer made the infamous L2P post. Blizzard even decided that the community was too shit to have a raid in 4.1 and instead gave us 2 dungeons with raid level loot in it to help us along. They actually said that. The community wasn't as progressed enough as they would have liked so they didn't add a raid to 4.1. Then they scraped a raid and then handed us the DS shit. It was worse than WoD.

We (those of us who actually played) shall never forget.

thats is straight lie though

last 5 years in game have been nothing but catering for hardcore crowd - mythic raiding , removal of jp/vp , removal of gear on vendors equal to raiding gear , puting in mythic + that only raiders benefit from because low mythic + levels dont offer anything worthwhile.

thats not catering to casuals - that turning off casual customers from your product.

[melodramocracy]

This is why it's not fair. No player lives for a raid, and sacrifices his/her time to get nothing out of it. This is unfair. The greatest benefit for the group is always unfair to the individual.

Raids are not solo events. The entire premise is individuals contributing to a groups progress, much like dungeons, instanced pvp, etc.. Additionally, with PL You will not receive loot on every single boss kill, nor will every piece of year you DO get be an upgrade for you.

Does Blizzard need even more participation trophies than already in the game?

[msdos]

There was already a gigantic stigma attached to Master Loot, it's basically impossible to get pugs to join a guild run if you run it. Paranoia maybe? I could see leaving if it was obvious it was shady, but not even joining?

Sometimes our guild would switch to ML on tier bosses so we could hand out the tier to people who needed it, since token pieces drop on ML, rather than the individual armors.
Other than that, it didn't see much use in our guild. There definitely IS a use for it though, dunno why people keep trying to say it's completely useless and only good for stealing.

[kamuimac]

Raids are not solo events. The entire premise is individuals contributing to a groups progress, much like dungeons, instanced pvp, etc.. Additionally, with PL You will not receive loot on every single boss kill, nor will every piece of year you DO get be an upgrade for you.

Does Blizzard need even more participation trophies than already in the game?

true but you will have fair chance to recive it - unlike with epgp/loot council.

for a ton of people fair shot at loot each week is much more important then progress.

its a lie that majority of people care about progressing asap. most dont mind proressing for months if they still get upgrades regulary.

[melodramocracy]

true but you will have fair chance to recive it - unlike with epgp/loot council.

for a ton of people fair shot at loot each week is much more important then progress.

its a lie that majority of people care about progressing asap. most dont mind proressing for months if they still get upgrades regulary.

And there are multiple avenues for those individuals to gear up entirely via RNG, as well as the option for them to join raid groups or guilds that do NOT use ML. Removing the ML option is another example of a terrible solution to a nonexistent problem.