Why are they ruining Garrosh even further in Chornicle 3?

[killwithpwr]

Yeah, han solo is my favourite warcraft character.

No matter what you say, Captain Pickard shot first...

[Deleted]

Because if they retcon him into being Evil All Along, then they can sweep their writing fuckup under the rug.

That's probably the reason. But it's pissing off even more people.

The people already hating Garrosh originally won't change their mind, they will see it as confirmation and nothing changes in the big picture. But these changes are pissing off the fans of Garrosh enormously, which makes the fuckup for Blizzard even greater. What a stupid decision.

[prwraith]

It's garrosh....fuck-em.

Should have never been a warchief, guy was always a whiny punk in nagrand, and he died a whiny punk in nagrand.

[Powerogue]

Can someone catch the rest of us up on what Garrosh did outside of direct game canon that influences how much we should hate him?

[ello]

Can someone catch the rest of us up on what Garrosh did outside of direct game canon that influences how much we should hate him?

There is a quote floating around the Internet(I first saw it on the bnet forums) that suggests Garrosh sent forces into Ashenvale before the mak'gora with Cairne. It also makes no mention of the old gods sabotaging the diplomacy talks with the night elves.

But I've been searching everywhere for the original source and I can't find it. I think we are missing something here. I guess we'll see in a few days.

[Zulkhan]

His final words to Thrall did not resonate with me at all because the very idea that he made Garrosh what he was is total bullshit.

No, it's really not. Thrall contributed immensely in making Garrosh what he ultimately became. Sure, Garrosh had emotional and psychological issues and these issues eventually guided him and pushed him towards the dark path he willingly followed. And he's indeed responsible of, well, his own issues. However, all Garrosh's issues needed was tempering and education. By handling the Warchief responsibility to Garrosh before he was both emotionally and culturally ready for the job, Thrall effectively ruined Garrosh's potential growth and shred his potential to pieces. Furthermore, Thrall didn't make an exceptional job with the educational part to begin with, since he always elevated Grom's figure to cheer Garrosh up while showing no eagerness to properly tell Garrosh about all the bad crap he nonetheless did.

"You made me what I am" is a bit too convenient claim and the obvious attempt of Garrosh to scapegoat his shortcomings on Thrall's exclusive shoulders, but it's not entirely wrong either since Thrall, nonetheless, at least contributed in making Garrosh what he eventually became and quite a lot too.

[Jastall]

No, it's really not. Thrall contributed immensely in making Garrosh what he ultimately became. Sure, Garrosh had emotional and psychological issues and these issues eventually guided him and pushed him towards the dark path he willingly followed. And he's indeed responsible of, well, his own issues. However, all Garrosh's issues needed was tempering and education. By handling the Warchief responsibility to Garrosh before he was both emotionally and culturally ready for the job, Thrall effectively ruined Garrosh's potential growth and shred his potential to pieces. Furthermore, Thrall didn't make an exceptional job with the educational part to begin with, since he always elevated Grom's figure to cheer Garrosh up while showing no eagerness to properly tell Garrosh about all the bad crap he nonetheless did.

"You made me what I am" is a bit too convenient claim and the obvious attempt of Garrosh to scapegoat his shortcomings on Thrall's exclusive shoulders, but it's not entirely wrong either since Thrall, nonetheless, at least contributed in making Garrosh what he eventually became and quite a lot too.

Sure, Thrall made a bad call, I won't argue here. Naming Cairne directly, at least by interim, would probably have been a far better idea. But the entire point of surrounding him with advisors is that Garrosh would learn on the job, like Thrall himself did, and the Cataclysm was hardly the time where ideal solutions can be implemented anyway. Brash as Garrosh was, I don't think anyone outside of Cairne and maybe Saurfang could foresee that he would immediately alienate most of his potential support and (per the retcon) seek out war for its own sake. But I guess the devs wanted a faction conflict so we were going to get one no matter what. Sounds familiar...

Still I'll give you that Cata!Garrosh is partly on Thrall, but MoP and WoD are different beasts altogether. There's no way that he could possibly foresee that what Garrosh was would include ''tries to revive an Old God for power'' and ''when arriving at an alternate universe where his ideal Horde exists out of Azeroth's reach, immediately attempts to make the two collide out of petty revenge''. There's a difference between Garrosh being headstrong and proud, and him being Orc Hitler. The former was foreseeable, the latter was not. I'd agree with the sentiment that the statement would be partly correct had it been made in the aftermath of Theramore or maybe the Divine Bell incident, but after Siege and WoD? No, Garrosh doesn't get to project his responsibility on anybody else.

[Lochton]

Removing Cho'gall involvement in new Chronicles 3, just adds more reasons to blame on Garrosh, and that really just pissed me off as Warchief Garrosh fan. It sucks to see a favourite character getting stomped and then written off as psychopath with no good sides.

Why can't we have 1 single nice thing about Garrosh. Is it because Blizzard sees that Thrall's reputation is suffering with Garrosh being simply plain cooler than Thrall was? So in response Blizzard rewrites Garrosh into a bigger jerk than he already was?

Then what's next?

Naz'grim is threatened and blackmailed by Garrosh to stay with his Horde?
Garrosh knew about Magatha's poison and stayed quiet?
Malkorok never existed?
Garrosh did not fight for his people, but for his own enjoyement?
Garrosh is the child of the Void Lords?

I hope they stop pushing Garrosh towards, irredeemable evil like Cho'gall, Gul'dan, Kil'jaeden. He should have been the Vegeta or Talandar of Warcraft/Horde.

Instead, they just making Garrosh a warrior version of the one sided psychopath Gul'dan.

For the ones not having the Chronicles, wouldn't mind to know what parts we talk about?

[MrHappy]

#garroshdidnothingwrong

but on a serious note, because it makes it a better compelling story vs another x puppet of y.

[Zulkhan]

Sure, Thrall made a bad call, I won't argue here. Naming Cairne directly, at least by interim, would probably have been a far better idea. But the entire point of surrounding him with advisors is that Garrosh would learn on the job, like Thrall himself did, and the Cataclysm was hardly the time where ideal solutions can be implemented anyway. Brash as Garrosh was, I don't think anyone outside of Cairne and maybe Saurfang could foresee that he would immediately alienate most of his potential support and (per the retcon) seek out war for its own sake. But I guess the devs wanted a faction conflict so we were going to get one no matter what. Sounds familiar...

Still I'll give you that Cata!Garrosh is partly on Thrall, but MoP and WoD are different beasts altogether. There's no way that he could possibly foresee that what Garrosh was would include ''tries to revive an Old God for power'' and ''when arriving at an alternate universe where his ideal Horde exists out of Azeroth's reach, immediately attempts to make the two collide out of petty revenge''. There's a difference between Garrosh being headstrong and proud, and him being Orc Hitler. The former was foreseeable, the latter was not. I'd agree with the sentiment that the statement would be partly correct had it been made in the aftermath of Theramore or maybe the Divine Bell incident, but after Siege and WoD? No, Garrosh doesn't get to project his responsibility on anybody else.

I see what you're trying to say here. However, Thrall's pivotal choice displayed an incredibly powerful domino effect and even though literally no one could have predicted how much power would have twisted Garrosh, ultimately is the choice of giving Garrosh such power that turned him for the worse. Not every consequence of that decision was foreseeable, indeed, but the choice being a wrong one was indeed foreseeable. And even if it wasn't for Thrall, it was for people (Saurfang and especially Cairne) with way more years and experience on their backs.

Thrall's stubborness to relentlessly and unreasonably pursue such course of action despite such trusted and experienced advisors trying their hardest to convince him otherwise is what, ultimately, sealed Garrosh's fate; Thrall may have meant well and all but he let sentimentalism cloud his judgement completely and that's a dreadful mistake to do, especially for a leader who held the fate of several peoples in his hands.

[Jastall]

I see what you're trying to say here. However, Thrall's pivotal choice displayed an incredibly powerful domino effect and even though literally no one could have predicted how much power would have twisted Garrosh, ultimately is the choice of giving Garrosh such power that turned him for the worse. Not every consequence of that decision was foreseeable, indeed, but the choice being a wrong one was indeed foreseeable. And even if it wasn't for Thrall, it was for people (Saurfang and especially Cairne) with way more years and experience on their backs.

Thrall's stubborness to relentlessly and unreasonably pursue such course of action despite such trusted and experienced advisors trying their hardest to convince him otherwise is what, ultimately, sealed Garrosh's fate; Thrall may have meant well and all but he let sentimentalism cloud his judgement completely and that's a dreadful mistake to do, especially for a leader who held the fate of several peoples in his hands.

I agree it was a poor decision born out of Thrall's sentimentalism (and gameplay imperatives), even if I'm cutting him a bit of slack due to 1) the Cataclysm being a time of crisis and 2) every other realistic choice was old or unproven. Putting Garrosh on the throne is risky, but I feel that in context it's not a totally unreasonable risk. Had Blizzard went with the Stonetalon root and made the job contribute to Garrosh's character growth it would have been the right decision. Hindsight is 20/20 here.

What was definitely reckless from Thrall's part is nominating a known warmonger during a time of extreme tension between the Alliance and the Horde. That, more than Garrosh' potential attitude towards his advisors, should have been the red flag that stopped his hand. A Cairne would have been able to defuse diplomatic incidents due to his experience and the respect he commands. Garrosh would not pursue diplomacy, and/or view any breakdown of relations as an opportunity anyway. Still, there's a massive difference between warring with the Alliance and the rest of what Garrosh did.

In the end I think we can agree that it was a poor decision to name him, but I still maintain Thrall did not made Garrosh what he was. Thrall unwittingly put him on the road, but Hellscream did not just walk said road, he galloped upon it at full speed. Garrosh's choices were his own, he made his own destiny.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Can someone catch the rest of us up on what Garrosh did outside of direct game canon that influences how much we should hate him?

There's the attack by the Twilight's Hammer mentioned above for which he was blamed.
Additionally his advisors failed him. Thrall asked Vol'Jin and Cairne to help Garrosh. Vol'Jin immediately left and refused to help him (as we see in the Troll starting zone) and Cairne challenged him to Mak'Gora after the attack on the Druid meeting (which again was not his doing).
Cairne's death was also not the fault of Garrosh, but rather the Grimtotem. Magatha poisoned Garrosh's blade without his knowledge, so the fight made him look dishonourable.
None of this excuses his later actions, but it does serve to explain his dying words to Thrall: "You made me what I am."

[Al Gorefiend]

It is pretty stupid. I liked him as a tragic hothead hero with rage issues.

He's always been a major hothead ever since his introduction though. When he charges after Varian against Thrall's orders, diverts his air fleet to attack the Alliance. Peace would never have been an option under him, and because for some stupid reason everyone cried that they wanted faction peace.. they killed him off.

[Zulkhan]

I agree it was a poor decision born out of Thrall's sentimentalism (and gameplay imperatives), even if I'm cutting him a bit of slack due to 1) the Cataclysm being a time of crisis and 2) every other realistic choice was old or unproven. Putting Garrosh on the throne is risky, but I feel that in context it's not a totally unreasonable risk. Had Blizzard went with the Stonetalon root and made the job contribute to Garrosh's character growth it would have been the right decision. Hindsight is 20/20 here.

Hindsight is flawed though, since the "right" story didn't clearly intend for Garrosh to be a character who would had handled the Warchief position in a "healthy" manner. That was the story that was taking form since WotLK and the one told in the novels as well. The "Stonetalon route" never had a leg to stand on, Afrasiabi simply fucked up. Garrosh should have been re-written all the way back to TBC to make him fit a completely different story (and even then Garrosh actually showed the weakness of character that ultimately made him crack beneath the weight of the responsibilities Thrall gave him).

On the end of the day, Thrall had someone who told him cut and clear that Garrosh was fucked up and without proper guidance, he would have screwed up big time. Thrall didn't listen and we know what ultimately and canonically happened.

In the end I think we can agree that it was a poor decision to name him, but I still maintain Thrall did not made Garrosh what he was. Thrall unwittingly put him on the road, but Hellscream did not just walk said road, he galloped upon it at full speed. Garrosh's choices were his own, he made his own destiny.

Thrall's other great mistake was underestimating Garrosh's insecurities and doubts, which were effectively showed when he proposed Garrosh the nomination. Beneath the tough exterior Garrosh had quite a fragile personality Thrall didn't seem to acknowledge, likely caused by the excessive projection of Grom over his son, who indeed possessed several of his father's virtues and flaws but was also more than just "Grom's son".

He thought Garrosh would have been strong enough to bear such a weight but, even there, Thrall was tragically proven wrong: the increasing sense of humiliation and inadequacy everytime Garrosh faced a defeat against the Alliance or the strong opposition of his Horde allies led him to try and suppress these feelings by just abusing his power and believing to conquer all his fears by conquering the Alliance and brutally silencing even the slightest hint of opposition. Needless to say, that's definitely not the healthiest way to deal with such issues and led Garrosh to a self-destructive downward spiral (and with him the Horde he was leading) still it was the only way he could conceive as long he bore a Warchief's reponsibility on his shoulders; the alternative was giving up that responsibility but that would have meant admitting to himself and acknowledging his colossal failure, something that would have probably regressed Garrosh to his whiny TBC days.

On the topic of Thrall, we can agree that "You made me what I am" is an unilateral statement coming from someone clearly trying to scapegoat his own shortcomings. Still, Thrall's owh share of contribution in making Garrosh what he became definitely exists and would have been perfectly avoidable, if only he made a few different choices in a few pivotal moments.

Vol'Jin immediately left and refused to help him

Pretty hard to help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Vol'jin didn't leave, it's Garrosh who kicked him out.

[ello]

Well, the actual page finally popped up.

https://imgur.com/vP793dP

- - - Updated - - -

so, to recap:

- no mention of Hamuul Runtotem's attempt to negotiate peace before Garrosh became Warchief
- no mention of TH killing the sentinels.
- Garrosh sent forces into Ashenvale ASAP, apparently. Though it is somewhat vague on whether or not he crossed into Night Elf territory.
- Cairne's motivation for mak'gora changed from supposed sabotage of peace talks to disapproval of starting the war

I think we can officially call it a retcon, yeah?

[Qualia]

Well, the actual page finally popped up.
so, to recap:

- no mention of Hamuul Runtotem's attempt to negotiate peace before Garrosh became
- no mention of TH killing the sentinels.
- apparently, Garrosh sent forces into Ashenvale ASAP, though it is somewhat vague on whether or not he crossed into Night Elf territory
- Cairne's motivation for mak'gora changed from supposed sabotage of peace talks to disapproval of starting the war

I think we can officially call it a retcon, yeah?

Well, those events have been posted in Chronicle threads a while ago, so people have been calling it a retcon for a few days (week?). I guess you can call it "official" now as it comes in form of a photo instead of just text, but it isn't new

[KrakHed]

No, it's really not. Thrall contributed immensely in making Garrosh what he ultimately became. Sure, Garrosh had emotional and psychological issues and these issues eventually guided him and pushed him towards the dark path he willingly followed. And he's indeed responsible of, well, his own issues. However, all Garrosh's issues needed was tempering and education. By handling the Warchief responsibility to Garrosh before he was both emotionally and culturally ready for the job, Thrall effectively ruined Garrosh's potential growth and shred his potential to pieces. Furthermore, Thrall didn't make an exceptional job with the educational part to begin with, since he always elevated Grom's figure to cheer Garrosh up while showing no eagerness to properly tell Garrosh about all the bad crap he nonetheless did.

"You made me what I am" is a bit too convenient claim and the obvious attempt of Garrosh to scapegoat his shortcomings on Thrall's exclusive shoulders, but it's not entirely wrong either since Thrall, nonetheless, at least contributed in making Garrosh what he eventually became and quite a lot too.

Honestly, Thrall's rebuttal to him actually feels like it contradicted a lesson he learned way back in Lord of the Clans. That he was what Blackmoore had made of him, as well as what everyone else had as well.

I don't think anyone outside of Cairne and maybe Saurfang could foresee that he would immediately alienate most of his potential support and (per the retcon) seek out war for its own sake.

Vol'jin called it.

[ello]

I'm just disappointed on so many levels. Not just for Garrosh, but for Cairne, Jaina, the Horde, the TH and the whole cata faction war in general. It's become so cheap.

Well, those events have been posted in Chronicle threads a while ago, so people have been calling it a retcon for a few days (week?). I guess you can call it "official" now as it comes in form of a photo instead of just text, but it isn't new

Yeah, I just thought some people would want to see the actual page because so far we've only had a paraphrased portion of it.

[Notshauna]

Honestly because Garrosh was a tonal whiplash due to poor writing, and the Chronicles exist entirely to massage their bad writing. Garrosh, like almost all WoW characters, has the issue of having no actual character traits or values, rather has superficially similar ones that exist to drive the story forward. Garrosh cared about honor even in tough situations until they decided to have him destroy Theramore, he cared about his people and the Horde as a whole until they wanted him to be pure evil, he hated dark magics and their corrupting power until he found an old god heart. The issue is that there was never any development that led him to these new values, he was actually 4 characters with the same name.

[Traveler Voltin]

“Lets make Garrosh a bigger asshole and in the process lets make cairne look like an idiot” -chronicles 3