Legion PvP Implosion was predicted but ignored

[Nuba]

Just something that made me furious: during the alpha/beta test of legion a lot of concerns rose up in the community (sure, I knew this part) but some dude made an incredibly gigantic thread about it pointing everything that ultimately became the very reasons why Legion had the worst class design in the game's history.
I just felt like I had to share this: sure it is, by now, a 2 years old thread on official forums, but it just feels terrible that so much feedback was discarded.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9709703?page=1

[docterfreeze]

People were saying that in wod beta, then legion beta, now bfa beta. Blizzard has their own agenda, nothing we say will change it. All there is to do is hope their agenda for the expansion after BFA includes returning skill to the classes. In the meantime don't give them any money.

[Caolela]

There were plenty more threads on Blizz forums, and here on MMO-C, about these issues. It was repeated by half a dozen of us here ad infinitum, ad nauseum way ahead of Legion's launch...to no avail.

I've said for many moons that Blizzard does not give a rat's ass about its customers other than they're marks to be plucked. As df said, they have their agenda. That agenda is to maximize profits - period - as any big, publicly traded corporation does nowadays. That means the customer, product, employees, and/or environment can and will get the short end as long as Acti/Blizz makes a larger return at the next quarterly report.

They don't give a fuck what you or I want in the game. That was over when Blizzard North went tits up. Their job is to convince you that whatever they do to WoW is good, to keep you subbing and grinding, and everything they do now is either to cut overhead costs or increase time-logged-in.

That's why I only play F2P now. Fuck Blizzard and the lying liars that work there.

[Deleted]

Guess what ? it's getting worse in bfa ..

But all you will get here is "it's just alpha chill dude".

[tttsssrrr]

Ability pruning isn't why WoW PvP is bad; it's just why the salty old people don't like it anymore.

[Toppy]

People were saying that in wod beta, then legion beta, now bfa beta. Blizzard has their own agenda, nothing we say will change it. All there is to do is hope their agenda for the expansion after BFA includes returning skill to the classes. In the meantime don't give them any money.

Thats disgenuine. Yes, people did doom say in past expansion. But for the coming of Legion, in PvP especially there was far more of an outcry than in the past with a great deal more well thought out feedback to why it wouldnt go well that was subsequently ignored.

You may recall Legion launched with devs claiming they were looking for feedback and looking to be transparent. Both of these were false, and they on multiple occasions did out right admit that they had ignored various feedback. For instance they stated that they ignored warrior feedback in its entirety (followed by a half assed apology).

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There were plenty more threads on Blizz forums, and here on MMO-C, about these issues. It was repeated by half a dozen of us here ad infinitum, ad nauseum way ahead of Legion's launch...to no avail.

I've said for many moons that Blizzard does not give a rat's ass about its customers other than they're marks to be plucked. As df said, they have their agenda. That agenda is to maximize profits - period - as any big, publicly traded corporation does nowadays. That means the customer, product, employees, and/or environment can and will get the short end as long as Acti/Blizz makes a larger return at the next quarterly report.

They don't give a fuck what you or I want in the game. That was over when Blizzard North went tits up. Their job is to convince you that whatever they do to WoW is good, to keep you subbing and grinding, and everything they do now is either to cut overhead costs or increase time-logged-in.

That's why I only play F2P now. Fuck Blizzard and the lying liars that work there.

The problem with that logic is that a sure fire way to lose customers, and thus profit, is to ignore them entirely. Which is what happened for Legion.

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Ability pruning isn't why WoW PvP is bad; it's just why the salty old people don't like it anymore.

Ability pruning
PvP templates
Half assed honor talents
Lack of rewards
An awful prestige system than makes people not even want to bother

A lot went wrong in Legion

[Deleted]

The whole argument for pruning is a mixed bag really.
If PvP is to flourish again, then there's some measures that have to be taken.

Pruning needs to happen again.
For some things, at least. Of course, balance is not something we should strive for. WoD came and went, and we all know how good it was.
Pruning, if made properly, can be a tool to free up some power budget both in the classes and in the meta.

If tomorrow Rets and Ferals were to lose their kick, everyone would freak out a little. But then if their utility was to be emphasised, then the removal of their kicks would have been made up for.
How do you emphasise Hammer of Justice? By removing Storm Bolt, for example.

There's a number of skills that have been made easier for the sake of being easier, but truth is that some skills need some multi dimension to be engaging both in PvP and PvE.
I always liked the old Charge stun concept: you either used it as a gapcloser or as an impromptu CC.
Giving Storm Bolt basically buries the concept and relegates Charge to the role of a pretty strong gap closer. But the identity and depth of Charge is stronger than a fire and forget ranged stun.

I'm kind of rambling but my point I think is clear: something has to be done, but returning skills to kits alone won't fit the bill.

[George Costanza]

Pruning is the biggest reason WoW is kill.

[Toppy]

The whole argument for pruning is a mixed bag really.
If PvP is to flourish again, then there's some measures that have to be taken.

Pruning needs to happen again.
For some things, at least. Of course, balance is not something we should strive for. WoD came and went, and we all know how good it was.
Pruning, if made properly, can be a tool to free up some power budget both in the classes and in the meta.

If tomorrow Rets and Ferals were to lose their kick, everyone would freak out a little. But then if their utility was to be emphasised, then the removal of their kicks would have been made up for.
How do you emphasise Hammer of Justice? By removing Storm Bolt, for example.

There's a number of skills that have been made easier for the sake of being easier, but truth is that some skills need some multi dimension to be engaging both in PvP and PvE.
I always liked the old Charge stun concept: you either used it as a gapcloser or as an impromptu CC.
Giving Storm Bolt basically buries the concept and relegates Charge to the role of a pretty strong gap closer. But the identity and depth of Charge is stronger than a fire and forget ranged stun.

I'm kind of rambling but my point I think is clear: something has to be done, but returning skills to kits alone won't fit the bill.

"Removing abilities to the point where the skill ceiling plummeted sure got rid of a lot of people"

"Lets remove more abilities, clearly class flavor is the issue"

Thats you right now.

[Caolela]

The problem with that logic is that a sure fire way to lose customers, and thus profit, is to ignore them entirely. Which is what happened for Legion.

Yes true, but then Blizz didn't really lose those customers - many of them went to Overwatch (or HotS) after they saw how bad for PvP Legion was. Remember, OW came out 3 months before Legion hit and by then OW was fairly well established & hyped.

That was no mere coincidence on Blizzard's part. They had to know Legion PvP would generally go over as a pile of suck and they'd lose a lot of players so they had OW ready to take their money.

[Spyro-]

The more pruning, the worst PvP is: Lower skill ceiling, lower room to outplay, mongo melee dominating because casters don't have tools to deal with them (due to the pruning), extremely good players unable to differentiate themselfs much from the average duelist since they don't have tools to do so, etc.

Due to the garbage PvP meta and the game being so dumbed down, Arena participation has gone down to a point that ArenaJunkies is closing in July, after existing since TBC. PvP is completely dead in WoW with the current meta.

WotLK was the best PvP meta ever, very fast, the skillcap was very high, and you could really tell the difference when seeing extremely good players (hell, I remember seeing Venruki at 2500 in blues).

In WotLK I had fun with every spec I tried, nowadays I can't stand any of them, all of them are boring to me, I need more buttons, more depth, more complexity.

I hope in the next expansion after BfA they reintroduce more abilities or something, I will wait till then.

[Magistrate]

"Removing abilities to the point where the skill ceiling plummeted sure got rid of a lot of people"

"Lets remove more abilities, clearly class flavor is the issue"

Thats you right now.

No, he's saying that pruning is OK under some circumstances--it has to be done intelligently.

We need to get over this roadblock to constructive discussion where one side says having ten billion buttons is 100% always better gameplay and one side is always saying we need 3 actives and nothing else.

[Caolela]

I hope in the next expansion after BfA they reintroduce more abilities or something, I will wait till then.

GL widdat, you're going to have a long wait. As long as Blizz defines profits from WoW in DAUs/MAUs as they do now (not in sub numbers), they'll keep on the same path as Legion and BfA indefinitely.

[Nerovar]

Just read this post and it kinda saddens me. It would be so easy for them to fix PvP if they just took the time to listen to the actual player feedback on the forums. I've always loved WoW PvP because there was this seemingly endless skill ceiling. That's why so many people watched these big PvP players on youtube/twitch because we could actually learn something from them and had something to aspire to. The feeling of learning your class to the fullest extent is simply greater than any content Blizzard can provide. So many PvP players I know quit the game because of pruning and other silly design decisions (and they were passionate players).

Unfortunately, the direction doesn't seem to change with BfA so I'm going to wait it out.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Every expansion has had "THE WORST CLASS DESIGN EVER"...

And then, a new expansion comes out, and the previous expansions are remembered fondly by some which then spins off into this illusion that "X expansion had the best design ever!!!"... Mark my post here, the song will start to change quite early on in BfA.

I sure wish the "low skill cap" that Legion brought into PVP had reflected on myself... #NeverGladiator :'(
Then again, the pruning didn't suddenly make me a 90+ percentile Mythic pro either. Guessing this stands for most, including the extremely vocal peeps.

[Hashtronaut]

People were saying that in wod beta, then legion beta, now bfa beta. Blizzard has their own agenda, nothing we say will change it. All there is to do is hope their agenda for the expansion after BFA includes returning skill to the classes. In the meantime don't give them any money.

This right here!

Sadly I think the newer generations get nervous with too many buttons.

[Toppy]

Every expansion has had "THE WORST CLASS DESIGN EVER"...

And then, a new expansion comes out, and the previous expansions are remembered fondly by some which then spins off into this illusion that "X expansion had the best design ever!!!"... Mark my post here, the song will start to change quite early on in BfA.

I sure wish the "low skill cap" that Legion brought into PVP had reflected on myself... #NeverGladiator :'(
Then again, the pruning didn't suddenly make me a 90+ percentile Mythic pro either. Guessing this stands for most, including the extremely vocal peeps.

Not really. This didnt really start being a thing till Cata, where in WoD people started saying Cata wasnt so bad. MoP didn't have the doomsaying balance wise, just people complaining about Pandaren. WoD did have it, but it deserved it, and Legion did as well. Likewise, no one praises WoD.

Your own failings dont reflect on how hard or easy the game is, so stop looking for things to blame it on.

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This right here!

Sadly I think the newer generations get nervous with too many buttons.

this "newer generation" is the one bitching about the pruning.

Maybe, just maybe, blizzard is being incompetent.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Your own failings dont reflect on how hard or easy the game is, so stop looking for things to blame it on.

... And the prize for not understanding sarcasm goes tooooooo: ...

Good to see that you consider not being a Gladiator or within the top of the raiding Mythic scene as "failings" though, good for you being so competent at the game!



But yes, really.

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This right here!

Sadly I think the newer generations get nervous with too many buttons.

There are no "newer generations", this old fallacy is tiresome at best. We're not even 2 decades away from whichever arbitrary expansion X crowd has appointed as the "pinnacle of skill cap in design"...

[dacoolist]

Just something that made me furious: during the alpha/beta test of legion a lot of concerns rose up in the community (sure, I knew this part) but some dude made an incredibly gigantic thread about it pointing everything that ultimately became the very reasons why Legion had the worst class design in the game's history.
I just felt like I had to share this: sure it is, by now, a 2 years old thread on official forums, but it just feels terrible that so much feedback was discarded.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9709703?page=1

Changes blizz had made to PVP are just like the changes done to PVE, they are for the majority.. HIGH level players will always play, and washed up players will always complain. The thread is detailed and great, but they have tons of flaws in the idea that it's just only one way to make it happen, I like the thread they made and sure I liked the PVP in WoD way better, but the fact is, this is Blizzards game, they can do whatever they want

[Caolela]

Changes blizz had made to PVP are just like the changes done to PVE, they are for the majority.. HIGH level players will always play, and washed up players will always complain. The thread is detailed and great, but they have tons of flaws in the idea that it's just only one way to make it happen, I like the thread they made and sure I liked the PVP in WoD way better, but the fact is, this is Blizzards game, they can do whatever they want

Nope.

The fact is we pay these asshats for a product, then have to pay an ongoing monthly sub fee to fully use the product. That kinda means it's 'our' game too. If it's just "their game" then why do they bother trying to sell it to others? Why not just play it themselves? kek

This bullshit that Blizz likes to use being "their game" only has never worked as a convenient excuse for steadily fucking up the game for yet more profits. It's just Blizzard's typical transparent hubris and arrogance, their fallback bullshit when they have no better response.

It's not for "the majority" as if that's what the majority wanted, since we know 60-70% of the PvP base has gotten the hell out of WoW and the ladders collapsed a few weeks into the xpac...because of Legion's failed design. It's actually the complete opposite: the majority doesn't like it.