Now Belgium declares loot boxes gambling and therefore illegal

[Bigbazz]

I'm happy if only for the fact that this along with all the backlash will hopefully shift the trend back to game design that isn't based on grindiy skinner boxes.

[Caolela]

Would you not teach your kids to be responsible and how to not fall victim to these things? Or would you just shield them as a child and let them fall head first as an adult and no experience?

You can teach them but it doesn't mean it always works or that they'll always do what's in their best interests. That's why laws are there.

[Endus]

Well I'm sure you wouldn't 'chukle' [sic] if you had kids of your own. There is a reason why civilized societies have laws against this kind of shit.

And by "civilized societies", you mean "basically just Belgium".

[Orange Joe]

You can teach them but it doesn't mean it always works or that they'll always do what's in their best interests. That's why laws are there.

Better to catch it young and treat it early, no?

It's clear these laws don't really have the childs best interest at heart as they ONLY target video games.

[Caolela]

And by "civilized societies", you mean "basically just Belgium".

I thought it was Holland too? Maybe I read it wrong, idk.

At any rate, yes apparently so far just them. It could also be that the issue hasn't yet received much attention elsewhere. Maybe it will now. (?)

[Tiwack]

"Buying lootboxes is fun" really isn't an argument against them.



Those are laws put in place to protect children from the inherent dangers of the product being purchased, not the act of purchasing itself. And you've yet to demonstrate that lootboxes are inherently dangerous, and definitely not in the same ways that a gun, alcohol/tobacco, or a bear would be.



If you want to talk about exploiting of addictive personalities, there's an argument to be made against mobile games; when your game has a "pay $100 for this pack of gems" option, it's pretty clear you're being predatory.

I have way more issue with that, which has no RNG factor whatsoever, than I do with cosmetic lootboxes.

The problem with the "it's addictive" argument is that EVERYTHING pleasurable is "addictive". Humans enjoy things that make them feel good, and seek them out. When they can't restrain themselves, that's addiction. That can happen to anything. That some small minority might get addicted doesn't crop up as an issue for me, the same way kids addicted to soda doesn't mean I think you should need to be 18 to buy a Coke. Lootboxes are "addictive" because they're fun, but that's about it. And "this mechanic is fun and people like it" isn't a convincing argument to me that it needs to be age-gated.

It relies on being conscious of your own decisions and what they're based off of.
The fun comes from not knowing what you're gonna get. Loot-boxes are like opening a present except you paid for it without knowing what you'll end up with, no ability to buy the one thing you wanted nor are you even being presented with any odds right from the beginning.
But like always don't fret because the first one is on the house. Which should always be a cause for some afterthought.

100 bucks for sack-of-gems games - at-least you know what you're getting and how much you're paying to get it. There's no odds in that aspect but they're still there in other aspects for fun experiences in the game. It's just another type of predatory business-model cooked into a game with an economic model funneling money out of your pocket similar as the loot-boxes. Continuous small amounts from a decent number of people amounts to a lot for the guy in charge and in control. It's clever entertainment-business all the same. Not being critical of what constitutes as fun and enjoyment is the source of the problem with addiction, while the money becomes secondary in the pursuit of dopamine. Money spent is meaningless but time spent is priceless. It means nothing when you have it but everything when you don't. We pursue things we don't have, while taking things we do have for granted.

I'm not even denying it's a form of "gambling", but it fits firmly within the kinds of "gambling" that aren't covered by gambling laws in nearly any jurisdiction (save Belgium, now, obviously). Foil-wrapped trading cards are "gambling", but nobody had any real problem with kids buying those. Same for toys in cereal boxes ("collect all 6!"). Or mystery bags. Or those random vending machines that sell little toys in plastic balls. Or Kinder eggs. Or a dozen other things.

Just saying "it's gambling" doesn't convince me that anything needs to be done, because there's plenty of examples of "gambling" that we're totally fine with kids doing.

They're only allowed because they're required to be transparent about the odds on what's available in the "box/packet/egg" The thinking is the consumer at-least gets a chance to make an informed choice from the start. It'll cost a fair amount to complete any collection but you'll not be mislead and hung out to dry because one object was a lot more limited and rare than you were initially lead to believe or assumed on your own.

[Kikazz]

EA and Activision arent all developers so yay for that.

i was being sarcastic...

Lootboxes only benifit the company, is what i was getting at, the games will work without them.

[Jimmy Thick]

Great job letting the government get involved in how we play games. Just fuckin' cherry. Next thing you know they will start regulating graphics and story content.

"Star Wars themed casino" my hairy fucking ass.

This development isn't good, its the beginning of the end.

[breadisfunny]

this is a victory for gamers everywhere.

[Dhrizzle]

Yeah then what OW doing in the original post ?

The article isn't about "shady practices." It's the Belgian government deciding (or clarifying) that under their laws spending real money to receive a randomly selected virtual item of varying personal value counts as gambling and is subject to regulations, effectively making all such systems illegal regardless of how gamers perceive them.

In the UK they don't count as gambling as the items gained aren't readily tradable for real cash, Counterstrike may differ here as there is an easily accessible market for selling loot-box items.

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Random outcome = gambling. That's my stance on it.

So... looting a boss in WoW?

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Nope because with D&D you can force the outcome you want (If your a DM) and you can keep rolling until u get the outcome you want (If ur DM allows it).

Let me spell it out for you Mr Former Mod. If you spend $$$$ on a thing that provides a random outcome it is gambling, By definition it is gambling.

By that definition crossing the street is gambling. I think I've already explained to you (maybe someone else has made the same mistake) but that is the colloquial definition of gambling. Governments use a legal definition of gambling, usually involving the placing of a stake for a chance of winning something of value. If goverments tried legislating every single thing with the slightest element of risk that anyone ever does we'd have an awful lot of red tape to deal with.

[Enkah]

this is a victory for gamers everywhere.

No it's not developers will get there money some way. Which means higher paid DLC or even the base game price goes up. No developer is gonna say oh well lost that revenue guess we can't gouge you somewhere else.

[Yunaqt]

Meh don't mind the cosmetic reward lootboxes, been gambling since primary school with buying trading card booster packs so i'm pretty used to the concept by now.

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So... looting a boss in WoW?

Whoops, guess wow will just be straight up illegal between random loot drops, legendaries, trinket procs.

[segara82]

So ... companies now have to do it like RIOT and set up a shop for the in-game items where you can see what it costs you to get the desired skin?
They still make bank so companies have no reason to bitch as much as they do.

[nekobaka]

This investigation started back in November and based on this article it looks to be a start to pass law for an outright ban for loot boxes.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a8070106.html

The games picked seem to cover most cases of loot boxes short of F2P P2W games which there are a number of popular ones they could of targeted which is odd they got left out.

[Schmilblick]

Maybe stop buying / playing games with loot boxes instead of waiting for a government to react ? so much addiction to games.

[Acelius]

People seem to pretend like video game companies are going to lay down and go "well golly gee shucks, I guess if we can't make lootboxes, we'll just have to give them everything for free!"


Because I don't really foresee that happening. They'll likely takeaway lootboxes... ALL lootboxes, including those you earn by just playing the game, and put EVERYTHING behind paywalls.

Want voicelines? We have a voiceline package you can buy for 5 dollars now per each hero. Sprays? Well lucky you, you can buy the Hanzo spray pack for only 10 dollars! Christmas spray packs are a seasonal deal marked down to 7 dollars, while you can buy the newest legendary skin for only 20 dollars! But hey, you can get ALL of the christmas skins for only 65 dollars! Who cares if you likely could have gotten whatever you really wanted for free, because you don't play any of the characters who got skins beyond one or two, by simply playing the game... now you'll be 100% certain you can instantly get those sweet, sweet pixels! And all you had to do was pay more money than Overwatch even cost to begin with.

And in order to ensure people will buy them, expect to see content 'rotate in and out.' Event items can only be bought during the event. Maybe some legacy skins rotate in and out of purchaseability. You like Bloodhardt Reinhardt? Sorry, he's not on sale currently! Be sure to get him when he rotates back into buyability. Only 15 dollars.


So congrats. You were salty you didn't unlock that hanzo skin you wanted during the winter event, bitched that you should be able to get instant gratification, and now you get nickle and dimed to death over every little thing.

And that's fine. Because you'll know exactly what you get when you spend your money.

[Kaleredar]

And that's fine. Because you'll know exactly what you get when you spend your money.

I prefer to NOT be nickle and dimed to death. Unlike some people, I do not relish the necessity to fork over money for any and everything in a game, especially in one I already paid for.

Besides, as I and many others have noted, if your definition of "gambling" is "paying money and not knowing exactly what you'll get for it" then a LOT of things are gambling... gumball machines... trading card packs... Raffle tickets...

[ManiaCCC]

Great, while I got no issue with COSMETIC lootboxes I want the practise of it to fucking die... though chances are Publishers will "tackle" it by making those games '18+'.

Actually, this would be death sentence for many games. It is much better to change microtransaction system to something else than declaring game 18+.

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I prefer to NOT be nickle and dimed to death. Unlike some people, I do not relish the necessity to fork over money for any and everything in a game, especially in one I already paid for.

Besides, as I and many others have noted, if your definition of "gambling" is "paying money and not knowing exactly what you'll get for it" then a LOT of things are gambling... gumball machines... trading card packs... Raffle tickets...

While what you said is true, it is still much better than some random stuff in some virtual boxes. I much prefer buying what I want than buy 10 lootboxes and didn't get a single thing I want.

You could argue Hearthstone is similar case but at least I know every pack is at least 40 dust. Which will always have some value for me, however getting voice lines, sprays and poses for characters I don't even play have literally zero value for me.

Just get rid of them already and let us buy what we want.

[Tech614]

I prefer to NOT be nickle and dimed to death. Unlike some people, I do not relish the necessity to fork over money for any and everything in a game, especially in one I already paid for.

Besides, as I and many others have noted, if your definition of "gambling" is "paying money and not knowing exactly what you'll get for it" then a LOT of things are gambling... gumball machines... trading card packs... Raffle tickets...

Everyone is entitled to know what they are purchasing. Loot Boxes compromise that. If you don't want to be nickle and dimed buying DLC then don't buy it. At least when you buy a DLC pack no matter how shitty it is, you know exactly what you will get every time you buy one. Not some random luck of the draw BS just made to scam money out of people who really want something and get unlucky at getting it.

The only defense of loot boxes seems to be the OW crowd up in arms because of "muh free boxes!" those boxes aren't actually free, they're just paid for by the whales who spend big trying to get skins and those free hand outs are just there to try to con you into doing the same. If nobody bought the loot boxes you wouldn't be getting free ones, or new skins being developed.

Companies can sell skins for whatever price they want like has been done for a decade+, it shouldn't be random luck on getting one especially when random luck means 1 guy gets the skin for $0 one for $30 and one for $300.

Loot boxes are a scam, cosmetic or not.

[tikcol]

Your forgetting box sale = 1 sale and that it. loot crates = profits for years.

Lets look at blizzard alone. 7.16bil in revenue last year 4b of that coming from just micro transactions. over 50% of their revenue is coming from "loot boxes"

WoW Blizzard that's disgusting