ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[Malix Farwin]

The problem i am seeing is that the people against it are actually raiders(like myself) and the people who are for it either do not raid or did very low level raiding where people used personal loot anyways.

The later unfortunately are the vocal majority and of course have no real idea of how the raiding system works in this game and its clear by how they view loot. When LC determines loot its usually to who needs it the most, favoritism doesn't really work in progression raiding because you need everyone to perform at a good level to help clear the encounters so loot always goes to the biggest upgrade for the most part.

As for the situation it does not, thats usually trials. As far as Trials go and this is another situation where people who do not actually do any real raiding would know. trial periods for the vast majority of raiding guilds is 2 weeks and during those 2 weeks you are still likely to get some loot just not the ones in hyper demand like the highest TF ones. After those two weeks you are absolutely showered in loot more then anyone else because they are trying to bring you to everyone else's level.

If you are going to be against ML at the very least know how it works and it is used. There is no benefit to hogging loot in progression raiding.

[MechaCThun]

People focus solely on the potential of abusing the ML system. They cite instances of when it happened to them, a friend, or if it is currently happening in their guild, a friend's guild, or a random group they joined.

This is the exception, not the rule.

If we use personal experiences as ammunition, I'll say that I have never experienced ML hogging in raiding in my own guild, a guild previously I have been in, or in random groups I join.

EDIT: I should note that I completely understand the frustration some people have towards ML, especially if it was abused towards them.

[Highwhale]

I would ask people who defend new loot system link their armory. I doubt they even have full heroic clears or atleast one mythic boss down.

[Great Destiny Man]

What loot system Blizzard prefer to be the standard doesn't really bother me, but I do have a big problem with them removing options completely. Master Looter obviously was problematic in some areas, but beneficial in others. Now we're just stuck with one loot option that no-one has the ability to opt out from.

Plus in reality this change will have very little effect for guilds with restrictive policies, you'll likely just see a "must trade to mains if it's tradeable and better for them" or flat out try to avoid bringing trials to progression kills/gear runs wherever possible. I really don't see how this makes things better across the board for trials.

[Daetur]

Right off the bat, I've been both a Heroic and Mythic raider, and I'm for this change.

As a retired hardcore raider who did used to run with ML/Loot Council/DKP systems and dealt with trials, up until the end of WoD, and who still pushes Heroic completion today: Changing to PL is better for the health of PUGS and the majority of the community of the game, and will increase enjoyment for a majority of players who might otherwise experience greedy MLers abusing the system, or find the use of ML and Loot Council systems to be a barrier to end game raiding.

Bleeding edge raiders are a minority, and I'm not entitled enough to think that we matter more than the rest of the community.

And here's the thing- for Heroic and Mythic raiders, yes, personal loot is going to restrict who gets pieces early on, and is going to reduce loot favoritism and loot funneling (which is a GOOD THING for world first races, as it restricts all the cheesy alt raid bullshit we've seen for years and years), but ultimately, you're going to be able to trade that shit around anyway.

[Daetur]

I would ask people who defend new loot system link their armory. I doubt they even have full heroic clears or atleast one mythic boss down.

My signature image is my link, but I'm certain you'll come up with multiple reasons why my multiple full heroic clears and several mythic clears this expansion don't count.

[Malix Farwin]

It's like sometimes people are not using their brains. Why would LC give loot to the person doing 1.5m for example when he will only do 1.55m instead of the person doing 1m when they will do 1.2m+ with it for example. its given to the one that will increase raid damage the most, plain and simple.

[Daetur]

It's like sometimes people are not using their brains. Why would LC give loot to the person doing 1.5m for example when he will only do 1.55m instead of the person doing 1m when they will do 1.2m+ with it for example. its given to the one that will increase raid damage the most, plain and simple.

Because the benefits to the majority of the community outweigh the marginal benefits to a single digit percent of players. It's not because you're wrong that LC is optimal for bleeding-edge progression, it's that the benefits of getting rid of it outweigh the benefits to keeping it, on a community scale.

[Gorgodeus]

The entire thing was caused by massive complaints by raiders who got tired of "trials get no loot", ninja-looters, etc., and not just "low level raiders". Pissed off people ( the ones against PL) will naturally be vocal about it. It is human nature. People for the change will naturally be less vocal by a significant margin. They are happy with the change. Also human nature. Hence the phrase "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". Thus using what you see being said on forums is pointless to use a basis for anything in regards to the ML debate.

PL is not "hogging loot". If anything, ML promotes more "hogging" than PL does.

[bmjclark]

I suspect this will make trials far less forgiving in a lot of mythic guilds. In my guild in highmaul/brf when i was an officer, we'd sit an officer or 2 to bring some trials to farm. If their first run didn't go great there was always 2 weeks after (generally had a 2-3 week trial period, 3 weeks for people we weren't sure on). I doubt we'd have risked the extra time for people we weren't confident in if it meant they might get pieces of loot instead of someone who's actually a core part of our team.

[Volitar]

Right off the bat, I've been both a Heroic and Mythic raider, and I'm for this change.

As a retired hardcore raider who did used to run with ML/Loot Council/DKP systems and dealt with trials, up until the end of WoD, and who still pushes Heroic completion today: Changing to PL is better for the health of PUGS and the majority of the community of the game, and will increase enjoyment for a majority of players who might otherwise experience greedy MLers abusing the system, or find the use of ML and Loot Council systems to be a barrier to end game raiding.

Bleeding edge raiders are a minority, and I'm not entitled enough to think that we matter more than the rest of the community.

And here's the thing- for Heroic and Mythic raiders, yes, personal loot is going to restrict who gets pieces early on, and is going to reduce loot favoritism and loot funneling (which is a GOOD THING for world first races, as it restricts all the cheesy alt raid bullshit we've seen for years and years), but ultimately, you're going to be able to trade that shit around anyway.

Okay but there is already a system in place for that. You need 80% of the run to be your guild or you literally cannot put ML on. This has nothing to do with pug runs.

[Malix Farwin]

Right off the bat, I've been both a Heroic and Mythic raider, and I'm for this change.

As a retired hardcore raider who did used to run with ML/Loot Council/DKP systems and dealt with trials, up until the end of WoD, and who still pushes Heroic completion today: Changing to PL is better for the health of PUGS and the majority of the community of the game, and will increase enjoyment for a majority of players who might otherwise experience greedy MLers abusing the system, or find the use of ML and Loot Council systems to be a barrier to end game raiding.

Bleeding edge raiders are a minority, and I'm not entitled enough to think that we matter more than the rest of the community.

And here's the thing- for Heroic and Mythic raiders, yes, personal loot is going to restrict who gets pieces early on, and is going to reduce loot favoritism and loot funneling (which is a GOOD THING for world first races, as it restricts all the cheesy alt raid bullshit we've seen for years and years), but ultimately, you're going to be able to trade that shit around anyway.

The whole premise of your argument makes 0 sense.

Pugs are not subject to ML rules

The Majority of the community do not raid where ML is used

Has no impact on the Majority because of point above.

This change affects the 10% who raids thats it.

[Volitar]

Because the benefits to the majority of the community outweigh the marginal benefits to a single digit percent of players. It's not because you're wrong that LC is optimal for bleeding-edge progression, it's that the benefits of getting rid of it outweigh the benefits to keeping it, on a community scale.

This isn't just a 'bleeding edge world first race' type of thing that only the high end guilds use. Every single guild doing any sort of mythic progression will benefit from using master loot over personal loot. It's not even debatable that gearing up your dps before tanks/healers is insanely beneficial to to your progress and not even having that choice is going to be really frustrating.

[Daetur]

Okay but there is already a system in place for that. You need 80% of the run to be your guild or you literally cannot put ML on. This has nothing to do with pug runs.

It certainly does- many smaller guilds who fill with pugs absolutely abuse ML.

[Clozer]

Because the benefits to the majority of the community outweigh the marginal benefits to a single digit percent of players. It's not because you're wrong that LC is optimal for bleeding-edge progression, it's that the benefits of getting rid of it outweigh the benefits to keeping it, on a community scale.

That there is a ML option doesn't affect you in any way does it? It doesn't affect the community in any way. If a guild choses this loot method how does that affect the great and wonderful wow community. I love masterloot in organized raiding and i like personal loot in random groups. To remove one option for simply no good reason at all, but the sake of having just one option everywhere?

But hey I've never done any kind of pet battling, why not remove it, i'm not using it and i can clearly see how bad it is for the community and wow in general this is a mmorpg not a pokemon game. Yeah, i hope you see what i did there.

[Polarthief]

If we use personal experiences as ammunition---

---I would cite the COUNTLESS instances where PL and coins got me maybe 5 pieces of loot that I actually could use, TOTAL.

Forced PL is toxic and much more hazardous to the long-term health of organized raiding.

[Highwhale]

My signature image is my link, but I'm certain you'll come up with multiple reasons why my multiple full heroic clears and several mythic clears this expansion don't count.

I don't see any mythic boss kill in currently relevant content like Antorus/KJ. You cleared EN/ToS mythic in January this year...

[Polarthief]

Right off the bat, I've been both a Heroic and Mythic raider, and I'm for this change.

Good for you, so you like Personal. FORCING your shit on everyone (and removing player/guild choice) is fucked up. You gain nothing from it but people against PL lose everything to it.

Everyone who is for PL, you do realize there are plenty of guilds that run PL, right? Join those. Don't fuck over the rest of the raiding community because you were "screwed over that one time in Karazhan".

[Zabatakis]

You are mistaken if you think this change is about anything but making sure people can't clear mythic the first week its out by doing alt runs and feeding the mains/ringers all the good loot. This is just another way of squeezing content life at the expense of player options. There are plenty of personal loot guilds, and nothing stops anyone from making one. There are plenty of personal loot pug runs, and nothing stops anyone from making one.

[Seranthor]

I would ask people who defend new loot system link their armory. I doubt they even have full heroic clears or atleast one mythic boss down.

At first I was going to be combative, but I changed my mind. So I'll ask politely, what does someone's armory have to do with whether someone supports the change or not?