ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[Carnedge]

I think its safe to say if you got to Guldan and killed Elisande a ton of times since according to you, you somehow never got COF which would mean you killed Elisande a decent ammount of times then yes you guys had enough gear. Stop using gear as a crutch and an excuse. BTW we only had either 1 or 2 COFs drop even with bonus loot so it is what it is. Some people in my guild wanted to do a week of farm after locking out on Argus for a few weeks and we decided not to and wow we killed it because people executed mechanics and dps slightly better than the week before.

You assume wrong (imagine that). We had exactly 1 kill on her. We had exactly 1 full week of progression in Gul. Not every guild is on a hi pop server with an over flowing roster.

People need to stop assuming they know everything.

I used all of my bonus rolls on Elisand Heroic mode. Only time I could have gotten it was the three times it dropped for my guild during guild runs. 2 of them went to the Raid Leader. The other one went to our Ret pally whom also was an Officer (But I have little beef with him since he was an extremely good player and I think it was his BiS).

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The question I ask you is the same as I've asked everyone else who complains about ML:

WHY did you stay in a guild when you knew he was going to treat loot this way. While it sucks that he was abusing loot, if you "went the entire NH tier" watching him funnel loot to himself, at some point it stops being a problem with the system, and starts being a problem with you. :/

I'm not going to defend ML. It needs a change. But PL-Only isn't the answer.

Well I didn't know they were going to treat loot that way. You see, I don't have mind powers nor the ability to see into the future.

Now if you rebuttal with "Why would you stay after they were doing that with loot".

Oh well that's simple, there was no other choice. We were the #1 guild on that server after a top 100 guild dissolved. We were progressing fast once we absorbed a few people from another guild (the guild that dissolved). If I were to server transfer to find another guild for a Guldan kill, it would have never happened. At least with the guild I was in we still had a chance.

Like I said before, they were good players. We progressed fast once we had the bodies. The only problem was the loot whoring. And it cost us a kill imo. It really doesn't matter what your opinion is since you weren't there.

I also am no longer in that guild or on that server.

[SirCowdog]

Well I didn't know they were going to treat loot that way. You see, I don't have mind powers nor the ability to see into the future.

Now if you rebuttal with "Why would you stay after they were doing that with loot".

Oh well that's simple, there was no other choice. We were the #1 guild on that server after a top 100 guild dissolved. We were progressing fast once we absorbed a few people from another guild (the guild that dissolved). If I were to server transfer to find another guild for a Guldan kill, it would have never happened. At least with the guild I was in we still had a chance.

Like I said before, they were good players. We progressed fast once we had the bodies. The only problem was the loot whoring. And it cost us a kill imo. It really doesn't matter what your opinion is since you weren't there.

I also am no longer in that guild or on that server.

I'm sorry...you were the number 1 guild on the server, but didn't have pre-arranged and agreed upon loot rules? Did no one else in the entire raid notice this? Nobody questioned this? And from what you sound like you're saying, the situation you described wasn't the only time there was "loot whoring".

So I repeat, while ML isn't a perfect system, the problem lies mostly with the people who either aren't willing to step up and say anything, or CHOOSE to stick around even after they see abuse. That doesn't mean EVERYONE should have to suffer because of the actions of a few. Taking away the ability for players to determine what to do with their own loot is a garbage solution.

You may not like ML(I agree with you there), but you should be able to recognize how bad PL-Only is as well.

[Great Destiny Man]

But if the grand majority of the people speaking up about it have had problems with this system, isn't that symptomatic of the fact that it's much more widespread than has been let on?

No, not unless you can prove in a quantifiable manner that is in fact the grand majority of the playerbase that have issues with the system. Otherwise we're simply going off "I read a lot of posts on MMO-C so it must be true".

[Mercane]

You don’t know if we constantly made mistakes.

As someone that progressed and killed mythic Gul'dan, it's seemingly unlikely that a guild that got him to 4% did it on their first attempt- you can deflect your or your raid teams inability to execute mechanics in whatever fashion you want- just don't blame it on loot.

FWIW- 'Trolling' isn't calling someone on their bullshit.

[siskokid21]

Its not free loot if they participated in the kill. When a company hires someone do they not pay them until they've gone through a trial? No, you work you get paid. People keep concentrating on the trials who don't pull their weight. What about the trial who does pull his weight? What about the trial that pulls more than his weight?, these people are at the bottom of the block as well.

Except these people aren't hired yet, they're more like interns looking for the job.

[Daetur]

I just had to come back and share with you all that someone in this thread is so ultra rustled over their disagreement with my post and they actually took the time to make an alt and send me in-game mail, they were so intent on expressing their babyrage. I enjoyed a good laugh before raid night- I might be right, or I might be wrong, and you're all well within rights to disagree with me, but I can't believe what I assume must be an adult man behaved like this! Amazing, thanks for the chuckle, and I hope everyone else here can enjoy it, too.

[Great Destiny Man]

I just had to come back and share with you all that someone in this thread is so ultra rustled over their disagreement with my post and they actually took the time to make an alt and send me in-game mail, they were so intent on expressing their babyrage. I enjoyed a good laugh before raid night- I might be right, or I might be wrong, and you're all well within rights to disagree with me, but I can't believe what I assume must be an adult man behaved like this! Amazing, thanks for the chuckle, and I hope everyone else here can enjoy it, too.

Yowza, that's a lot of repressed anger Congrats on the in game hate mail!

[Daetur]

Yowza, that's a lot of repressed anger Congrats on the in game hate mail!

I feel like I've really arrived! A big milestone.

Also, Ideot, if you're still here, my buddy Clint will buy that name for a whole dollar.

[Kyanion]

I feel like I've really arrived! A big milestone.

Also, Ideot, if you're still here, my buddy Clint will buy that name for a whole dollar.

Woah that is an illegal WoW transaction. I have to report you to the Blizz police!

[Deleted]

Man the reasons why we cant have both have been said a thousand times in this forum. Can't have both. Suck it up and stop QQing

of course you can have both.
there is not a single valid argument why removing ml is a good thing as the "abuse" and other stuff will just happen in the same manner with pl.

[xxcloud417xx]

I just had to come back and share with you all that someone in this thread is so ultra rustled over their disagreement with my post and they actually took the time to make an alt and send me in-game mail, they were so intent on expressing their babyrage. I enjoyed a good laugh before raid night- I might be right, or I might be wrong, and you're all well within rights to disagree with me, but I can't believe what I assume must be an adult man behaved like this! Amazing, thanks for the chuckle, and I hope everyone else here can enjoy it, too.

While I disagree on your position about Master Loot, I do agree that this is pretty damn funny! Should I gratz? I honestly feel like this is achievement-worthy buddy.

Man, some people really need other life priorities. I feel like I got a hundred other things I would rather spend my time on in a day over ingame hate mail. lmao

[Challenge]

Its a stupid change that only hurts without actually adding or solving anything. Theres a loot choice there for a reason and your choice to join a guild/stay in it. If someone whos a trial doesnt like master looter or doesnt like being passed on for loot to more veteren core raiders in said guild, or just felt like they deserved that trinket that droped for the first time and even though its your first kill X player has been farming it for months and has never seen, go find a mythic progressing guild already using personal loot as its main looting method.

Oh wait, you fucking wont because its stupid as shit and no one does it. Only fucking LFR heroes and normal pug casuals thinks this is even remotely a good idea.

[Seranthor]

I feel like I've really arrived! A big milestone.

Also, Ideot, if you're still here, my buddy Clint will buy that name for a whole dollar.

Wow... you have arrived... to the sender of your hate mail, seek help.

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of course you can have both.
there is not a single valid argument why removing ml is a good thing as the "abuse" and other stuff will just happen in the same manner with pl.

The problem you and the other pro-ML folks face, is those on the anti-ML side dont have to defend their position, because we dont have any control over the choice... the people YOU have to convince are Blizzard, and like it or not, you dont have the support to force them to reverse themselves.

the most valid argument is Blizzard says this will be so... you should be arguing your case to them, not trying to thump your chests at the rest of us folks.

[Deleted]

Wow... you have arrived... to the sender of your hate mail, seek help.

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The problem you and the other pro-ML folks face, is those on the anti-ML side dont have to defend their position, because we dont have any control over the choice... the people YOU have to convince are Blizzard, and like it or not, you dont have the support to force them to reverse themselves.

the most valid argument is Blizzard says this will be so... you should be arguing your case to them, not trying to thump your chests at the rest of us folks.

you cant convince blizzard.
but it is entertaining to see people defend a change that has not a single positive effect so ill take it.

[Zahlen]

As a retired hardcore raider who did used to run with ML/Loot Council/DKP systems and dealt with trials, up until the end of WoD, and who still pushes Heroic completion today: Changing to PL is better for the health of PUGS and the majority of the community of the game, and will increase enjoyment for a majority of players who might otherwise experience greedy MLers abusing the system, or find the use of ML and Loot Council systems to be a barrier to end game raiding.
.

You know they removed the ability to use Master Loot without atleast 80% of the group being in the same guild, right? Around the time they renamed it to "Guild master loot" going into legion.

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At first I was going to be combative, but I changed my mind. So I'll ask politely, what does someone's armory have to do with whether someone supports the change or not?

This change only affects players who use GML which is quite literally no one outside of mythic raiders.
So you have no right to say you support this change if it doesn't affect you.

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Because your opinion doesn't matter unless you're already in love with ML and playing in these mythic raid groups that cant live without it.

More like your opinion doesn't matter if you're not raiding at a level that this affects us at.

[Beag]

No, not unless you can prove in a quantifiable manner that is in fact the grand majority of the playerbase that have issues with the system. Otherwise we're simply going off "I read a lot of posts on MMO-C so it must be true".

How else is Blizzard to gauge the playerbase’s enjoyment with a system if they don’t look at the feedback of the people willing to talk about it though? It’s not like guilds use in-game tools to keep track of this stuff; guild communication is done over Skype, discord, vent, etc, and if arguments crop up that’s probably where they take place. Oociously you can’t have devs sitting in every single guild’s loot council discussion, so how else are they going to get a feel for where the game as a whole stands on this topic if not by looking at the forums and reddit?

The devs have access to a lot more metrics than I’m sure any of us are aware of. If they’re making a change like this they probably have a good reason.

[Seranthor]

you cant convince blizzard.
but it is entertaining to see people defend a change that has not a single positive effect so ill take it.

I strongly suspect if you had enough support you could convince Blizzard, but the pro-ML crew is more interested in shitting all over anyone that isn't a mythic raider that isn't all in already with your position. So, you have drastically limited your ability to compel the change you want. Thus, you are reduced to baying at the moon.

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You know they removed the ability to use Master Loot without atleast 80% of the group being in the same guild, right? Around the time they renamed it to "Guild master loot" going into legion.

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This change only affects players who use GML which is quite literally no one outside of mythic raiders.
So you have no right to say you support this change if it doesn't affect you.

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More like your opinion doesn't matter if you're not raiding at a level that this affects us at.

Telling the very people that can help you get what you want that they dont have a right to their opinion is a brilliant fucking strategy... And its exactly why you wont get what you claim you want.

[Deleted]

I strongly suspect if you had enough support you could convince Blizzard

Solid meme
blizzard does not give a shit the earlier you accept it the better you have it.

gcd change is the perfect example - over 50% dislike it and they still bring it.

[Seranthor]

Solid meme
blizzard does not give a shit the earlier you accept it the better you have it.

gcd change is the perfect example - over 50% dislike it and they still bring it.

Flying in WOD... There is a screaming example of what community pressure CAN do. If you had that level of community support for your ML position, it would be reverted already.

But since you dont have and wont ever get that level of support, yes, you are fucked and you are just crying about it now.

[Zahlen]

Telling the very people that can help you get what you want that they dont have a right to their opinion is a brilliant fucking strategy... And its exactly why you wont get what you claim you want.

I would be completely fine if the majority of the population who's opinion I think holds weight in discussion would be in support for this change.
I don't support people supporting or denying something that has no affect on them.

Think of a presidential election. There's a reason they don't let non-US residents vote.

I don't think people who haven't used Master Loot in a serious raiding guild within the past 2 years should have a say in this discussion because it doesn't affect them.