Nerf Retribution Paladins in pvp

[Jester Joe]

Jesus no.

1. Hammer of Justice. It has a 60 seconds cooldown and stuns for 6 seconds. First of all, 6 seconds? Really? It has a 60 seconds cooldown, I give you that, but the Talent Fist of Justice makes it to a 30 seconds stun anyway, so retribution paladins have a 6 seconds stun with a cooldown around 30-45 seconds. Most classes have a stun for 4 or 5 seconds and their cooldown is also around 30-50 seconds. Please reduce the duration or nerf Fist of Justice.

Diminishing returns with every other melee stun. Trinket out, use the passive trinket, whatever. It's not a problem.

2. Hand of Hindrance. This must be a complete joke right? 70% slow for 10 Seconds and a 30 seconds cooldown. This should definitely be nerfed to around 50% slow.

Because nearly every class doesn't have a way to suppress/remove slows? It's fine.

3. Divine Steed. I like this ability, it looks cool. I even think that it is "okay". I mean 100% speed bonus for 3 seconds is still pretty much op for melees. But most paladins I have seen in Battlegrounds use the talent Cavalier which gives you another charge for divine steed.

So you can use your divine steed two times, which is a 100% speed bonus for 6 seconds PLUS the Hand of Hindrance which slows you for 70% for 10 seconds. That. Is. Freakin. Overpowered. You have low to zero chance at all to effectively kite a retribution paladin. Now there are a some classes with a few spells of disengaging like Monks, arcane mages or Hunters. Still, compared to other melee classes retribution paladin - again - has too much utility. Warriors have charge and need to choose between a stun or a second charge of... charge. I don't even want to start talking about death knights.

3 seconds of 100% movement speed, so OP no one uses Ret for carrying the flag.
Also it's on the GCD and doesn't remove/suppress slows.

And for complaining about Ret's "OP SLOW!", you seem to forget a lot of other classes have roots/slows. Yes, paladins have freedom, but then you can just stun and wait for freedom to run off, and repeat the slow.

4. Forbearance. You heard right, no hate about divine shield or lay on hands. They are okay (and somewhere even iconic for this class). Forbearance has a 30 second cooldown which is too low. In good situations a paladin is able to cast Lay on Hans AND Divine shield in one fight. I think paladins should decide wether to use Lay on Hands or Divine Shield and punish them if they chose for the wrong spell. Forbearance should be raised to one minute (in pvp).

One isn't usable in arenas, so this is really irrelevant. In a BG, you can nuke the paladin down fast enough that only bubble will save anything.

5. retribution, when a nearby raidmember dies the paladin deals 20% increased damage and takes 30% reduced damage. Wtf?

If they ever reach you.

As you can see retribution paladin feels pretty much too overtuned and overloaded. I didn't even talk about artifact traits. This madness needs to stop. I get it that paladin is a cool looking class with fancy light and they are the good guys and retribution and justice and stuff. But stop mary sue'ing this class in pvp.
What do you guys think? Does Retribution paladin need a nerf? What would you change? Please keep the discussion respectable.

Note that all the changes I suggested should inflict the paladin playstyle in PVP.

Nothing you said at all.
Ret needs HELP if anything.

Removing steed from the GCD would be a lovely start.

[Deleted]

I'll just leave these here.

Barbarian - Fury PvP talent

Bounding Stride - Fury talent

Skip to 0:23.


A Fury Warrior simply does not complain about another class's burst and mobility.
Fury is the acrobatic dancer assassin of WoW - in plate armor for extra awesomeness! Please tell me how Divine Steed is OP after watching the video.

[Deleted]

its a troll obviously

Please refrain from posting just to call another user a troll.

[Tanthoris]

1. HoJ is dispellable, so any healer can remove it.Fist of Justice does not make it 30 seconds it makes it so the CD is reduced when they spend holy power.

2. HoH is a complete joke, you're right. Because it's one of the only slows in the game for melee that isn't spamable, AND it's also dispellable aswell.

3. Divine steed, lol. Slow a paladin and DS is complelely useless unless they pair it with Freedom(which is purgable). It's one of the weakest melee mobilities in the game, next to wraith walk which can get stuck on tiny pebbles.

4. Forbearance... you're complaining that a paladin can't bubble AND LoH at the same time? Bubble isn't that strong, nor is LoH, once a paladin pops both they melt as easy as a clothy.

5. Honestly, I didn't even think that passive worked in PvP, but I haven't pvp'd as ret in years because it's been such a mess.


I'm not sure what class you must play, but you must play it badly if a RET paladin is your biggest issue. It's one of the worst melee in pvp atm because they can be kited for days, they are reliant on burst windows and all of their group utility is purgable.

[Schattenlied]

1. Hammer of Justice. It has a 60 seconds cooldown and stuns for 6 seconds. First of all, 6 seconds? Really? It has a 60 seconds cooldown, I give you that, but the Talent Fist of Justice makes it to a 30 seconds stun anyway, so retribution paladins have a 6 seconds stun with a cooldown around 30-45 seconds. Most classes have a stun for 4 or 5 seconds and their cooldown is also around 30-50 seconds. Please reduce the duration or nerf Fist of Justice.

This is ret's ONLY form of CC, that's why it works that way... Most other classes have other CC on top of their stuns... Like warriors, you have a fear bomb and stormbolt.

2. Hand of Hindrance. This must be a complete joke right? 70% slow for 10 Seconds and a 30 seconds cooldown. This should definitely be nerfed to around 50% slow.

Says the person playing a class with a 50% AoE snare on no cooldown... If you want HoH to be a 50% snare we get to have the cooldown taken off or at least reduced to 10 seconds, deal?

3. Divine Steed. I like this ability, it looks cool. I even think that it is "okay". I mean 100% speed bonus for 3 seconds is still pretty much op for melees. But most paladins I have seen in Battlegrounds use the talent Cavalier which gives you another charge for divine steed.

It's literally one of the worst mobility skills in the game.

It's on the GCD, it has a 45 second cooldown, it's shut down by snares and roots, and it covers no more ground than your Heroic Leap and Charge do, and Charge has half it's cooldown, and can be talented to have 2 charges of Charge, and Heroic Leap can be honor talented to have 3 charges, and you get Charge and Heroic Leap at the same time.

It's literally just a worse Heroic Leap, not only is it shut down by snares and roots (which Heroic Leap ignores), it takes longer to get to the destination than Heroic Leap does, on the same cooldown.

So you can use your divine steed two times, which is a 100% speed bonus for 6 seconds

and you can cover the same distance as 2 Steeds in less time with 2 Heroic Leaps, and have another Heroic Leap left.

PLUS the Hand of Hindrance which slows you for 70% for 10 seconds. That. Is. Freakin. Overpowered. You have low to zero chance at all to effectively kite a retribution paladin.

the guy with double Charge and triple Heroic Leap with a no cooldown spammable 50% AoE snare complains about other classes being hard to kite? Have you tried to kite yourself? Oh who am I kidding, of course you haven't, you've clearly never played anything but a Warrior, your bias is deathly apparent in this post.

4. Forbearance. You heard right, no hate about divine shield or lay on hands. They are okay (and somewhere even iconic for this class). Forbearance has a 30 second cooldown which is too low. In good situations a paladin is able to cast Lay on Hans AND Divine shield in one fight. I think paladins should decide wether to use Lay on Hands or Divine Shield and punish them if they chose for the wrong spell. Forbearance should be raised to one minute (in pvp).

Sure, so long as Divine Shield get's it's original 12 second duration back.

5. retribution, when a nearby raidmember dies the paladin deals 20% increased damage and takes 30% reduced damage. Wtf?

Yes, we hate it too because it fucks with our tuning.

As you can see retribution paladin feels pretty much too overtuned and overloaded.

Nope.

People should have to actually play as the class they want to complain about for a significant amount of time before they are allowed to lodge complaints, you clearly never have. No one here is going to take you seriously when you haven't walked in our shoes, and as someone who has been playing a Warrior for 13 years myself, you need to educate yourself.

[Charge me Doctor]

1. Hammer of Justice. It has a 60 seconds cooldown and stuns for 6 seconds. First of all, 6 seconds? Really? It has a 60 seconds cooldown, I give you that, but the Talent Fist of Justice makes it to a 30 seconds stun anyway, so retribution paladins have a 6 seconds stun with a cooldown around 30-45 seconds. Most classes have a stun for 4 or 5 seconds and their cooldown is also around 30-50 seconds. Please reduce the duration or nerf Fist of Justice.

You also have an access for abilities that reduce it even further by spending HP or judging, can't recall. But yeah, it's a really heavy CC with big cooldown, 10 yrd range and on GCD, basically giving you 2-3 GCDs of damage, it doesn't even sound that strong. The worst offenders are short CCs with low CD, because you can stack them up and interrupt casters into oblivion, rendering them useless for 10+ seconds (hello double blood elf rogues).

2. Hand of Hindrance. This must be a complete joke right? 70% slow for 10 Seconds and a 30 seconds cooldown. This should definitely be nerfed to around 50% slow.

Why? There are some strong 70% slows in the game, like hunters trap (same CD, AoE effect bound to said area) and it's dispellable. On a 15 seconds cooldown when dispelled. But dispellable anyways. Dispel has 8 seconds CD. Against an ability on 15 seconds cooldown. Instantly. You (and no one who PvPs honestly) should have any problems with this ability. Gnomes probably fucking laugh at it.

3. Divine Steed. I like this ability, it looks cool. I even think that it is "okay". I mean 100% speed bonus for 3 seconds is still pretty much op for melees. But most paladins I have seen in Battlegrounds use the talent Cavalier which gives you another charge for divine steed.

So, your complaint is that retribution has sprint? Is sprint fine in your book? Or dash?

So you can use your divine steed two times, which is a 100% speed bonus for 6 seconds PLUS the Hand of Hindrance which slows you for 70% for 10 seconds. That. Is. Freakin. Overpowered. You have low to zero chance at all to effectively kite a retribution paladin. Now there are a some classes with a few spells of disengaging like Monks, arcane mages or Hunters. Still, compared to other melee classes retribution paladin - again - has too much utility. Warriors have charge and need to choose between a stun or a second charge of... charge. I don't even want to start talking about death knights.

So you have 1 gap closer separated in two charges on long cooldown, an average magical slow and... that's it? It's not even undispellable spammable hamstring (and please don't feed me "it's melee ability" argument, because warriors can (and will) sit on you 24/7 with how sticky they are. Out of DKs, warriors and ret paladins, rets are the easiest class to kite and beat in pvp. At least from mage perspective

4. Forbearance. You heard right, no hate about divine shield or lay on hands. They are okay (and somewhere even iconic for this class). Forbearance has a 30 second cooldown which is too low. In good situations a paladin is able to cast Lay on Hans AND Divine shield in one fight. I think paladins should decide wether to use Lay on Hands or Divine Shield and punish them if they chose for the wrong spell. Forbearance should be raised to one minute (in pvp).

Maybe for holy spec, but for others it's fine. Where do you get the impression that paladins should be able to use DS or LoH per fight? That's ridiculous, what's next, mage not being able to use two ice blocks per fight? Maybe put all major cooldowns on "one charge" and make their recharge timer run only when out of combat?

5. retribution, when a nearby raidmember dies the paladin deals 20% increased damage and takes 30% reduced damage. Wtf?

Yeah, 40yrd range and 20 seconds duration, what's wrong with it exactly?

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Now that's a lot of QQ. /sigh
Don't have a huge problem fighting Rets with my DK, maybe the problem lies elsewhere?

I mean, when people QQ they at least explain why they are crying - "i got beaten by a ret with berserk in 2 GCDs on a BG", "i was dueling this ret and he just didn't died and used heals all the time then bubbled and healed to full then LoH and healed to full and i don't have this much healing and i die, it's stupid". This one is just... make no sense and is confusing, no explanation, no examples, nothing, just "pls nerf"

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I was thinking about rerolling paladin. I give you that. But rerolling a class just because it is flavour of the month doesn't seem very fair compared to other classes which make fun but aren't that strong.

Ret paladins are FotM in PvP? Are we playing the same game? I mean, i'll get it if you are talking about holy, but RET?

[Aeula]

Or you could learn to play. That works too.

[Charge me Doctor]

Could you please define whats so ironic about the complainment over Ret mobility being too strong? I don't see why it is not strong compared to other classes.
Winning in pvp is mainly decision making and cooldown timing. I would consider my decision to be very good according to the situations given. But its frustrating if all your decisions lead to your own death because you face an overtuned class with an answer to basically your whole kit. I am open for solutions, how would you deal with a retribution paladin as, let's say frost mage, Balance druid, or even fury warrior?

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With things like Hand of freedom, Hand of hindrance, two charges of divine steed, Blessing of Protection, a 6 seconds stun every 30-40 seconds with a 10 yard range (according to the icy-veins retribution paladin guide for honor talents) how could you consider a ret paladin being mostly kited around?
I was really thinking about wether or not maybe my playstyle could be wrong, but the more I read in this thread the more I am sure most people here complaining about retribution paladins getting kited around should sit down and deal with the kit of their class...

Most of abilities you mentioned are on big CD and are purgable and dispellable, which is a problem. You pop a BoF and you rarely see it up for more than 2 seconds, same with BoP and a stunm if healer isn't CCed

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A Fury Warrior simply does not complain about another class's burst and mobility.

They complain a lot about GCD change tho, kekeke. Justice is served

[Nefarious Tea]

Fury warrior crying about Ret?

Maybe don't be stupid and blow all your CDs at once when you know they can stun you? Unlike PvE, you actually have to think and plan ahead as a melee in PvP.

[Charge me Doctor]

What do you guys think? Does Retribution paladin need a nerf? What would you change? Please keep the discussion respectable.

Anyways, to answer your question, ret paladins need a buff, probably at expense of burst damage, probably an option to remove divine steed in exchange of some sort of proper gap closer (but it brings them very close to being too similar to warriors playstyle, in case of using charge or leap), some sort of dispel protection (NOT in form of "hey your shit gets 50% CD reduction when dispelled!", who gives a fuck about that? It's still longer than dispel/purge cooldown (har-har, purge cooldown), so it doesn't matter, like, at all. Even thinking that "my abilities may be very well a dispel sponge" doesn't work because of that.

[chocbear]

I would go into deal how stupid your entire post is but ill just leave it at this.

You pointed out every part of ret that is WEAK and under powered and ignored the only blatant OP thing they have and that is their damage during Crusade.

[Lothaeryn]

Pretty sure the main complaint of ret pallies (at least in arena) is that their mobility is among the worst of all melee. Think DK might be worse but ret is still down there.

Dk at least has TWO gap closers, Wraith Walk and Death Grip. Ret has one, that can be snared and requires TWO GCD's to even function as intended. DK's can complain, but they should learn their benefits (like AMS) outweigh their mobility limitations.

[Noxina]

Seems like OP left the thread after reading and understanding that it is acutally just him being dogshit, lol.

[lunethzero]

People complaining about ret in PvP? What year is this? Havent heard of this since WotLK....

[Kaver]

I literally only logged in to this ancient old account, that i haven't used in a long time.. Just to tell you to shut the fuck up..

Behave young man. You are definitely allowed to disagree, but do it with arguements instead of curses.

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Seems like a l2p issue.

also i find it very ironic that you complain about Ret mobility being too strong

His points about the short cd on a 6 sec stun and 70% slow are valid though.

[Rilec]

Did I just wake up in 2009?

[Oakshana]

I don't see the problem stating my opinion on these forums, it seems you are trying to discredit my arguments to make a real discussion obsolete. What a pity.



I was thinking about rerolling paladin. I give you that. But rerolling a class just because it is flavour of the month doesn't seem very fair compared to other classes which make fun but aren't that strong.

The world of PVP is not balanced around 1v1... and that was the point that @Suila was really making.

If you keep getting killed by Retribution Paladins, then either they are a counter class for you, or you just perform badly against them and need to change your approach.

[krille20]

[Morally Grey Storm]

His points about the short cd on a 6 sec stun and 70% slow are valid though.

No, they are not.

[Charge me Doctor]

His points about the short cd on a 6 sec stun and 70% slow are valid though.

No, they are not, especially if you compare it to warriors stormbolt and piercing howl.
Undispellable stormbolt while having 2 seconds lower duration has double the range and half the cooldown, even if ret gets the fist of justice talent he still has to spend HP to reduce cooldown. HP, which is gained by using your abilities in melee. And to spend them you also have to be in melee. Considering how much mobility warrior has, his stormbolt synergises way better with his kit.
Piercing howl, while having half the range - is an AoE ability, spammable and, again, undispellable, making it way harder to peel warrior off than peeling ret off.

Short CD on 6 seconds stun doesn't even matter most of the time, because of DRs, so you have to be sure that no stuns were applied in 18 seconds or so until you use yours, or you still wait these extra seconds and benefit of having short cooldown is gone. And considering that you usually want to line up your stuns with other players stuns and other forms of CC (because you know for a fact that if a healer is not CC and trinket is not on CD you basically have a "here, have a free stun DR bro" button on your bars), chances of you using (and benefiting from) your hammer of justice back to back are very low.

Right now rets are the only melee i can safely blink away from (through their OP 6 seconds stun without even using a trinket) and forget about them for 5-10 seconds. Probably even steal BoP or BoF and laugh at how his 70% slow removed by his own buff he used to get rid of my instant, no cooldown 50% slow, just for me to reapply it. And then when he finally reaches me just displace away. It feels unfair even when playing against.