How Can PvP Be Realistically Improved?

[Stormspellz]

You’re being smashed because of the gear way more than because of your spec.

Until PvP remains heavily gear based, there’s not much to do to revive it. But WoW is all about gear since day 1, I don’t expect PvP to change.

Na its spec cause you know templates.

[Enchant]

I actually enjoyed PvP with my Mage (all specializations) in Legion. It was difficult at times, but nothing that I didn't take from the experience where I couldn't improve for the future. Even with Fire in mind, there wasn't all that much self-healing and that's what I like about Legion's version of Mage PvP. For other specializations though, there are some gimmicky perks, but those that had them, needed them to some extent. I accepted it, because it was apart of their toolkit, especially if used to throw off another player's toolkit. All-around though, PvP still needs to be improved.

[Evaddon]

For world PVP:
If people actually fought on PVP servers instead of running away, or not helping a member of their faction whose being attacked by the opposite faction.

its a player(s) issue, not a blizzard issue

Instanced PVP: The rewards need to be better, or atleast meaningful. Other then that its fine. Something to work towards is always nice

[Kagthul]

Why should i have to obtain "BiS" while leveling? Are you that focused on competition you even would want people to farm BIS gear on low level?

The gear treadmill is for endgame, and not for leveling chars who want some fun in a battleground.



What exactly outside of flaming people who dont want gear to matter do you add to this discussion?

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I dont know if i am part of a minority. So don't you. Don't try to to pretend you had any numbers.

...... are you being serious?

The numbers are out there for everyone to see. The Armory is data-minable and has been since they introduced the public API.

Prior to Legion, WoD had the worst numbers on the ladder by a WIDE margin (like... less than half of Pandaria, which was itself at an all-time low)...

And now Legion has dropped almost 80% of WoDs numbers.

Let that sink in. Legion saw an 80% drop in rated PvP, and about 70% in casual PvP (which is a little harder to track since there arent achievements for honor or conquest gained per season anymore).

Weve discussed this topic ad-nauseum with numbers, links tomthe Armory stats, you name it.

Every time PvP is “re-balanced” to make gear less of a factor, there is a commensurate drop in both rated and casual participation.

There was a time (as late as mid-WoD) when 45-48% of the entire playerbase did PvP as their primary end-game activity (that was the percentage of people with the 25K Conquest season achievements) - the vast majority of them doing so without EVER setting foot in rated PvP.

Now, its a bit harder to track because those achievements no longer exist, but you can get an idea of the numbers by looking at Prestige achievements. As it stands now, anyone who was doing enough casual PvP to get the 25k CQ achievement would be getting (easily) enough Honor to Prestige about 8-9 times. EACH SEASON, i might add, so theyd be at the Prestige cap.

Want go guess what percentage of the player base even has Prestige 8..at all?

Hint: its not a lot.

Removal of relevant rewards (i can literally get better gear walking around Argus looting chests than i can get from PvP unless im in the top 10%) murdered PvP.

[thilicen]

PvP for me was at it's absolute best during TBC and Wotlk, and resilience combined with pvp set bonuses was a major part of that. War mode seems like a great step in the right direction but ultimately that doesn't do much for rated pvp itself. Also take tanks out of the equation, have them downscale as fuck when in pvp combat. Healers can stay but should be nerfed as well, I'd rather lose a game to lower heals than play those long ass games where nothing happens until dampening kicks in hard.

[Caolela]

Why should i have to obtain "BiS" while leveling? Are you that focused on competition you even would want people to farm BIS gear on low level?

The gear treadmill is for endgame, and not for leveling chars who want some fun in a battleground.



What exactly outside of flaming people who dont want gear to matter do you add to this discussion?

Where did I say you "had" to get BiS? I didn't. It's an option if you want it so bitching about twinks while leveling is very lame. Notice that if you're getting your nooby face smashed in, you can level out of a bracket soon enough.

What exactly outside of being a MMORPG do you think WoW PvP should be...if it's not about gear, stats, and customization?? Because that's what you're advocating - a fucking bastardized quasi-MOBA where everyone is instantly equal and they don't have to work at anything much to stand around with their thumbs in their dicks in an instance and still be viable.

If you want the easy way out, you should be harping this shit on other game forums, not here.

[docterfreeze]

Now, its a bit harder to track because those achievements no longer exist, but you can get an idea of the numbers by looking at Prestige achievements. As it stands now, anyone who was doing enough casual PvP to get the 25k CQ achievement would be getting (easily) enough Honor to Prestige about 8-9 times. EACH SEASON, i might add, so theyd be at the Prestige cap.

Want go guess what percentage of the player base even has Prestige 8..at all?

Hint: its not a lot.

If you have numbers, post them. Go, go.

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/glo...category-15266

3.9%

[Osmeric]

Want go guess what percentage of the player base even has Prestige 8..at all?

Hint: its not a lot.

And of those that do... what fraction got it by just doing PvP WQs (which are PvP in name only, mostly)?

My main this expansion has Prestige 11, earned almost entirely (like, except for a small handful of unrated BGs) from WQs.

[Kagthul]

And of those that do... what fraction got it by just doing PvP WQs (which are PvP in name only, mostly)?

My main this expansion has Prestige 11, earned almost entirely (like, except for a small handful of unrated BGs) from WQs.

Same. I'm Prestige ~17 or so on my main, solely from WQs.

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If you have numbers, post them. Go, go.

You dont have. The rest of your argumentation is based on numbers you do not have, so i will ignore it.

... lulz.

What a childish cop-out. I told you, we discussed this ad-nauseum, with numbers, in a dozen other threads (with links and everything).

You're too lazy to look them up, that's not on me, kiddo.

I'm not going to go through the (not very large) effort of re-posting them for the thirtieth time because you're a lazy git.

Though i see someone went ahead and did it anyway.

I know its hard to have your bubble burst and to have to realize that people who care about rated PvP were NEVER a large portion of the player base, but... that's the reality of things kiddo.

The closer we get to your PvP nirvana, the less people PvP.

Full stop.

Dont like the facts? Oh fuckin well.

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https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/glo...category-15266

3.9%

That was even lower than i thought it would be.

Last time we discussed this, we set the bar a little lower because it was before the rejiggered the amount of Honor required for the first level and people hadn't had time to really grind out the ranks yet.

4%.

Down from ~45%.

That's a hell of a drop.

[Caolela]

I talk about a fair gameplay at low level and matchmade pvp . And not your sick understanding of gear-treadmill everywhere. Or your twink-o-rama you obviously would want to have. Which you never will get back.

Spare me with your meritocracy-bias.

"Meritocracy"? lol My "sick understanding" is actually the way the game is set up, not your pipe dream of "fair gameplay" equality at low levels because you've forgotten that it can't be made balanced when you have only a fraction of your abilities or talents at lower levels. Several other reasons too but that's for starters.

Matchmade PvP...another lol. Good luck with that with Blizzard, for various reasons I won't bother to get into here.

Most of us know that shit is almost certainly not gonna happen.

For christssakes, IDk what the hell you're doing in WoW or a MMORPG if you're pining for a MOBA-style game. You're trying to turn water into wine when you'd be better off just queueing up in OW or HotS, etc.

[Caolela]

Don't try strawmen argumenting. Actually, low level balance is another thing than gear inequalities. And no, i don't think that the return of little twink bastards dominating leveling bgs has any value for those who just want to level up using battlegrounds. It should be possible to join a battleground with a quest green level 27, and he should still be able to compete.

And no, an mmorpg is not about the gear treadmill all over, in special if it makes leveling content unplayable. Which is the case in battlegrounds dominated by gold twinks, whose owners bought legendaries and epics for hundreds of thousands of golds in the level 100-109 bracket.



Well, then stay in your organized pvp, collect your gear, and act as if you had skill, while its just the level of organization and your ilevel.

And let matchmade battleground players have fair fun in greens.

It is no "strawman" since what I've said is the reality of the game. Nice try at bullshit when you have no defensible argument.

PvP isn't running dungeons or questing in greens and blowing through content. It's facing enemies that possibly are better or worse equipped than you are, and who can change unpredictably. Unlike fighting the same static bosses or NPCs.

What about that have you not gotten through your thick gourd yet??

Yes, a MMORPG is about the gear treadmill, not just leveling. Like it or not because you're lazy and have the work ethic of a hobo (or a whiny, shiftless millennial that gives up when the other team gets ahead by 50'ish points).

Go get a MOBA.

[Xloudman]

Make all the pillars rectangular instead of circles/squares

[Caolela]

PVP should be about a fair challenge of player versus player, because in your idea of pvp gameplay, chars had to run dungeons before they could do pvp, as dungeons are the only place which drops good gear. And dont tell me you want a challenge to gear up your little twink bastards. You would use a level 110 alt on a second account to push your low level exp off char through hundreds of dungeons and get BIS gear just to dominate little greeny twinks in low level battlegrounds.

We already had that. It sucked. And blizzard turned it off. And no matter how much you cry, they won't turn it on again.



Actually i talk about levelling and matchmade battlegrounds. I never said you should not have to care about gear for organized content, as like arena or RBGs. But it just is completely unfair for matchmade bgs while levelling and even at endgame. A green equipped player should not be roflstomped just because of his green gear. He should be able to show skill to offset gear advantages.

What the fuck are you talking about "my little twink bastards"? Why don't you take that line of horseshit and shove it in your ass because that's not what I'm talking about here.

Talk about setting up strawmen to knock down...

In case you've been under a rock for the past decade: WoW has always been about gear. You're whining about something that has no place in the game except to appease lazy, skilless cunts. It's just wishful thinking and wanting a different playstyle that doesn't fit the genre.

Jesus christ, how many more fucking times do you have to be reminded of that??

[Osmeric]

Kagthuls argument is constructed. He takes numbers and assumes all those pvp players would want to gear up for matchmade pvp. While he infact doesn't know what people want.

I don't know if that's his argument, but it's pretty clearly not what many players want (if by matchmade PvP you mean rated PvP). Not because they don't want to gear up, but because they don't want rated PvP.

Personally, I tried rated PvP in BC, just a little, and swore off it after that. The sustained focus on rated PvP in BfA from the recent blue comment makes me think I'm not going to do any more PvP in BfA than I did in Legion. I'll want to see what the Conquest rewards look like.

I'll add one more thing: in Legion, the PvE devs designed the end game so there was always something to do to advance your character. A side effect of that is that if there's some game element that doesn't advance your character, you feel like you're wasting your finite game time if you do that instead. PvP felt like that to me, and in BfA it looks like unrated PvP will continue to feel like that.

[Banard]

From casual to competitive PvP, fire away with your ideas. A lot of people think Legion messed up with the PvP, but I still don't think PvP this expansion is that bad unless you're someone who hates PvP Templates, I guess. Arena is still pretty decent.

What improvements do you want to see in Arena?
What improvements do you want to see in RBGs?
What improvements do you want to see in casual BGs and World PvP (Bring back WorldDefense!)?
How can we revive dueling?
Do you think class design is off to a good start in the BfA Alpha?

as a casual bger...who has grinded out every bg achievement, currently working on the newest BG....they can revert the game to any other editions to be honest. This is the first time in 12+ years i hate random bgs.

#1 issue - Healers need a huge %(%(%( nerf bat. It should be impossible to take that much damage, keep your self alive and HAVE FULL MANA. At this point its not even skill....its like 9 out of every 10 healers.

#2 issue - they removed a bunch of CC (which had very little effect in random bgs cause random people break it) and added 1000 roots/slows. And way to easily to reapply it.

[kran1um]

Talking wPVP or Arena? Over the years seems like bring the class not the gear. Rid the tanks - period. no tank should be out dps'n a pure dps. heals should only be limited to one in 3's and no heals can be in 2's.

wPVP is non-existent. only the camping gankers that are 50 gear levels higher even want wPvP. we havent had wPvP since Isle of Queldana's.

[Wallmaker Yahzarah]

Remove any self-healing for non-healer specs and slightly increase HP pool.

LOL First comment I see when I click on topic. Simply... hilarious. So, that instantly removes all casters from being able to pvp/duels.

[Deleted]

pvp in legion is the worst its ever been..

what they need to do is unprune, remove templates, perhaps go back to resilience system cuz it was never broken.. that would help dueling

LOL you are pretty selfish dont you?

[Reclaimer]

I can end this full topic right here by simply telling the truth - PvP will never be " Improved " because people want it " Fixed " based on they win 90 -100% of the time.

Being a veteran PvPer with Mult-Gald + Mult Hero of the ALLY and only ever playing a non-meta class and can safely promise that pvp is mostly skill based. There are simply too many factors to list that is all up to the player that is going to depend on your PvP outcome.

"This Blood DK raped me 1 on 1 OP NERF " Why were you fighting a blood DK 1 on 1? Stupid.
"Healers are broken and unkillable " 2 - 3 people on any healer in the game will blow them up in 5 seconds easy, Sounds like your playing with bads.
"This Mage and Lock team keep raping us in 2's" Sounds like they are experienced at what they do and have a plan, Get better. it's that simple.

PvP in wow would be a lot better if more players just admitted " Hey I need to get better " or " Yeah I shouldn't have done that " but let's face it. hiding behind a ton of lies because your shit is always going to be the top way to go sadly and you cant build anything around that.

[jazen]

Remove arena
Remove RBG's
Add Random BG's

No templates, purchaseable/craftable gear that scales with how much you pvp (the more you pvp based on some measure (hk's for example ) increasing ilvl).