"Trials deserve loot too"

[JackWest]

Exorsus and Method have spoken and have been heard loud and clear, their opinion not helping the cause of the ML-control councils. But there's hope, what about Paragon? Ensidia? Can they hear the united voices of the 10/11s and convince Blizzard to protect and save the privilege of the MasterLooter&Associates?

Only time will tell.

Jdotb=/=method. I mean, if you are so obsessed with him, check his twitter. He made post about ml. Several actual method players commented to say what crap that change is and claim ml should remain. So yeah, get your facts straight before shitpostong

[Mister Cheese]

It's fucking hysterical how so many people with 0 mythic boss kills are telling me how mythic works now. I'm editing some SSs from forums now. This will be worth it.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...58/unknown.png

People who are in a similar raid environment as me who understand why it shouldn't be removed:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...96/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...44/unknown.png

Oh yeah and you're saying method is in favor of it too. Keep spouting bullshit. See how far that gets you.

[rda]

Exorsus and Method have spoken and have been heard loud and clear, their opinion not helping the cause of the ML-control councils. But there's hope, what about Paragon? Ensidia? Can they hear the united voices of the 10/11s and convince Blizzard to protect and save the privilege of the MasterLooter&Associates?

Only time will tell.

The defenders of ML who first claim to be mythic raiders and demand attention to their points on that basis, only to immediately turn 180 and dismiss other mythic raiders of much higher rank being pro PL as "an exception" are damn hilarious.

I didn't hear them say anything new or interesting for at least a week. They just constantly grapple around the same one-two points on which other mythic raiders have been beaten and had to concede up the thread.

I suggest the thread should just stop listening to them. Let the irrational crybabies who can only run around in circles and evade replies be.

[Dikka]

It's fucking hysterical how so many people with 0 mythic boss kills are telling me how mythic works now. I'm editing some SSs from forums now. This will be worth it.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...58/unknown.png

People who are in a similar raid environment as me who understand why it shouldn't be removed:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...96/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...44/unknown.png

Oh yeah and you're saying method is in favor of it too. Keep spouting bullshit. See how far that gets you.

"So many people"...and 1 link with plain "opiniion" without arguments.
Now about arguments.
Thing is - you ppl are just repeating same "arguments" again and again. Mostly ignoring everything else.

Like that "warlock" scenario. It was discussed here many times. It will not be like that.
I don't want to repeat myself to explain why, you can easily find all of this in this thread.

Or 3rd link - "90% of all mythic guilds will require you to trade loot". Again, was discussed many times. Not going to happen. Of cause they will try, but they will not be able to, this way or another.

Here is the simplest scenario - blizzard will give an option to convert loot from boss to "bonus loot". Or remove "bonus loot" notification. Now by enforcing loot trading you basically reduce the amount of loot your guild is getting. Boom.
How your crowd counter this argument? They didn't, they just ignore this.

Ignore and continue to repeat "yes yes we will require you to trade loot" or "two days ago you was mythic raider in your guild but now you join our guild and suddenly you are nothing and don't deserve loot".

And I just enjoy the show.

[rda]

It's fucking hysterical how so many people with 0 mythic boss kills are telling me how mythic works now. I'm editing some SSs from forums now. This will be worth it.

Nobody cares, buddy.

What are you doing this for? "Your own fun"? LOL, no, because you are butthurt regarding the change and doubly butthurt regarding your inability to argue against the change. Apparently, you are wrong and you are inarticulate, who'd have thought. Quite a revelation to you, wasn't it? Keep doing this nonsense. I didn't even open your pictures, just in case, but feel free to post further.

[Deleted]

It's fucking hysterical how so many people with 0 mythic boss kills are telling me how mythic works now. I'm editing some SSs from forums now. This will be worth it.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...58/unknown.png

People who are in a similar raid environment as me who understand why it shouldn't be removed:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...96/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...44/unknown.png

Oh yeah and you're saying method is in favor of it too. Keep spouting bullshit. See how far that gets you.

To be fair, the opinions from the people who are 10/11 mythic at this point don't hold that much weight over those with 0 mythic kills. This tier has been out for 6 months already so it's clear gear isn't what's holding them back from progressing so they won't be affected by this change any more than the guy who only clears heroic. What holds these guilds back from killing bosses isn't gear, it's skill and next expansion it'll be no different progression wise for them. This change is really only affecting guilds in which gear is actually a deciding factor in killing the boss or not.

[Mister Cheese]

"So many people"...and 1 link with plain "opiniion" without arguments.
Now about arguments.
Thing is - you ppl are just repeating same "arguments" again and again. Mostly ignoring everything else.

Like that "warlock" scenario. It was discussed here many times. It will not be like that.
I don't want to repeat myself to explain why, you can easily find all of this in this thread.

Or 3rd link - "90% of all mythic guilds will require you to trade loot". Again, was discussed many times. Not going to happen. Of cause they will try, but they will not be able to, this way or another.

Here is the simplest scenario - blizzard will give an option to convert loot from boss to "bonus loot". Or remove "bonus loot" notification. Now by enforcing loot trading you basically reduce the amount of loot your guild is getting. Boom.
How your crowd counter this argument? They didn't, they just ignore this.

Ignore and continue to repeat "yes yes we will require you to trade loot" or "two days ago you was mythic raider in your guild but now you join our guild and suddenly you are nothing and don't deserve loot".

And I just enjoy the show.

Of course it's my opinion. It's coming out of my fucking mouth isn't it? That's what an argument is. How do you know this won't happen? Have you raided mythic?

Then you go on to project what blizzard will do. Assuming that you know that there will be issues with forcing PL on everyone. And about people joining a new guild. You don't know them. They could flake at any moment. That's why they don't get anything until you know that they aren't gonna jump ship to another guild as soon as they've gotten what they wanted from you.

Nobody cares, buddy.

Thousands of people beg to differ. And I like arguing with people. It's funny to see them spout bullshit like the stuff I linked in my previous post.

[Deleted]

A lie told once remains a lie but a lie told a thousand times becomes the truth.
That's why we have several posters just repeating their statements page after page even though they have been proven to be off (inaccurate, wrong, using personal attacks, illogical, lying) numerous times. Sane people stop caring to "discuss" abstract constructs with a parrot. The parrots will thus "win the argument". Legit.

"The ML abuse was rampant" by people who never been to progress.
"Blizzard cares for the abused crowd".
"Method is against ML".

Btw. out of the 0.3% who have been claimed to participate in mythic raiding, let's say every trial has been abused. That's on average how many people? 10%? 20%? Can't be more than 50%, or guilds wouldn't exist by now. So it's fine to laugh at the insignificant 0.3% to make a point for the abused ... less than 0.15%? Another good point.

Never argue with mmoc experts - they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Also - if anyone here thinks Blizz decided to go for this change to take care of the supposedly abused 0.15% population, ask yourself a simple question: has anyone been asked about their perception/feelings/thoughts before it was announced? Was there a survey? Were there some recorded numbers of interactions with players about this? Do you really think they "listened" to player feedback? Like ... the 0.15% of players out of whom MAYBE another 20-50% could have gone vocal and write anything about it in forums or (WHOOOO!) open a ticket. That gets us to what numbers? 0.075%?

That's statistical best case scenario though - the vocal minority is usually less than 20% of the abused. The abused were less than 10% of the trials.

Laugh at the (alleged) 0.3% people who play this game with the most time and energy investment. Yeh - legit.
Laugh at the % of whales too, while at it? Then read something about dolphins and minnows and how they:
a. jump the game much quicker than anyone
b. spend WAY less than whales

Keep living in your echochambers. It's much better for your fragile egos.

The real reason for this change MIGHT be the percentage of whales within the number of bad players "blocked" from "their" end game loot by guilds who don't care if you are a whale or not if your performance blows ballsdeep.
IF that percentage is high enough (like maybe every second whale thinks himself entitled to mythic raid loot never mind their (lack of) skill and performance), Blizzard will not revert it for simple financial reasons.

Whales pay for Blizz salaries and feel more and more entitled to content and gratification based on their leverage - money. Imo Blizzard had enough data to substantiate such a change to appease the whales' insatiable hunger.

Pay to win (in this case - win = loot) implemented in yet another way in WoW.

On second thought it might not be even to cater to whales, as they already buy their boosts. It's about the dolphins and minnows. Less money than whales, higher % of population, not quite lower expectations, not quite more skill on average

[Dikka]

Of course it's my opinion. It's coming out of my fucking mouth isn't it? That's what an argument is. How do you know this won't happen? Have you raided mythic?

That is practical illustration of "you ppl are just repeating same "arguments" again and again. Mostly ignoring everything else.".

You put zero efforts into reading and trying to understand "Here is the simplest scenario - blizzard will give an option to convert loot from boss to "bonus loot"". How do I know you put zero efforts?
Because reading and understanding mean you either agree or bring _new_ (counter)argument. That is how discussion works.

But you didn't. Instead you go with "How do you know this won't happen? Have you raided mythic?". I literally just described how exactly this will not happen..

Did I think now you will read, think and actually respond? Bring some new arguments?
Of cause not. You will continue to ignore this and give me some chaotic passive-aggressive "answer".

[nocturnus]

And you simply dont understand that SOME unpaid internships (usually offered after applying to TEST you.) are also just about testing if a person is suitable for the job - just like trials and guilds.
Again for you: no direct comparsion just similarities - at some point you will get it.

Only this exact scenario was pointed out to show similarities only - no one here ever said "Trials=Intern in every single Scenario".

And it was a fallacious comparison for all the aforementioned reasons.

I eloquently summarised them for you, both in this thread as in the reply to your private message. There's nothing else I can do besides breaking it down in a few words:

Internship's purpose: learning and educating
Trial's purpose: testing suitability and efficacy

[therealbowser]

Amazing that this post is still going when this is hardly the primary reason or actual reason Blizzard is going through with this change in the first place.

Not that I am bashing the discussion or anything, but it literally does amaze me.

[Mister Cheese]

Amazing that this post is still going when this is hardly the primary reason or actual reason Blizzard is going through with this change in the first place.

Not that I am bashing the discussion or anything, but it literally does amaze me.

The primary reason is dumb too but nobody can really argue against it because the people arguing for the removal of master loot aren't even affected by it.

[nocturnus]

The primary reason is dumb too but nobody can really argue against it because the people arguing for the removal of master loot aren't even affected by it.

Do show me the research you've done that lays the foundation for your intelligently formulated conclusion.

Amazing that this post is still going when this is hardly the primary reason or actual reason Blizzard is going through with this change in the first place.

Not that I am bashing the discussion or anything, but it literally does amaze me.

I don't know about others, but I'm simply intrigued by the way people on both sides of the spectrum think, which is what motivates my participation. I couldn't care less about the alleged impact of this change, mostly because I don't think it will be significant.

[KaPe]

20k people out of how many millions .. six .. that's what .3%

Nothing feels quite like catering to the margin for error.

Make your mind. On the one hand, Mythic population is a tiny tiny minority. On the other, there are supposedly thousands of Tyranical Master Looters opressing poor trials. Which one is it? Is every single mythic guild run by them? Even if that were true, which is laughable in itself, it's still a tiny group. Meanwhile, this thread makes it seems like suddenly millions of poor trials will be freed from the opressive regime of the evil Loot Masters.

The numbers don't add up, no matter how you slice it. If Mythic raiders are "the margin for error", the trials in such guilds aren't even worth mentioning, never mind making thousands of posts supporting their non-existant plight.

[nocturnus]

Make your mind. On the one hand, Mythic population is a tiny tiny minority. On the other, there are supposedly thousand of Tyranical Master Looters opressive poor trials. Which one is it? Is every single mythic guild run by them? Even if that were true, which is laughable in itself, it's still a tiny group. Meanwhile, this thread makes it seems like suddenly millions of poor trials will be freed from the opressive regime of the evil Loot Masters.

The numbers don't add up, no matter how you slice it. If Mythic raiders are "the margin for error", the trials in such guilds aren't even worth mentioning, never mind making thousands of posts supporting their non-existant plight.

Somehow you're assuming that a. normal and heroic guilds don't use ML and b. abuse should be indulged if the victims are few.

What a great mind you must have.

[Deleted]

End the "those against ML are not affected by it" crap. It's crap. Nobody is passionate about removal of ML if they didn't experience it and don't see how much better PL will work for them and their guild.

You've created this "Mythic Raiders For ML" fantasy in your heads that's creating a powerful cognitive dissonance...that's what's short-circuiting the 10/11s. Exorsus and Methods people explained very well why they support the change but you refuse to listen and instead clumsily attempt to DISCREDIT those who should be your ROLE MODELS.

There's no denying that the only people who are for ML are those who it worked for. I am sure it did work for you but remember, privilege usually is invisible to those who have it.

[JackWest]

End the "those against ML are not affected by it" crap. It's crap. Nobody is passionate about removal of ML if they didn't experience it and don't see how much better PL will work for them and their guild.

You've created this "Mythic Raiders For ML" fantasy in your heads that's creating a powerful cognitive dissonance...that's what's short-circuiting the 10/11s. Exorsus and Methods people explained very well why they support the change but you refuse to listen and instead clumsily attempt to DISCREDIT those who should be your ROLE MODELS.

There's no denying that the only people who are for ML are those who it worked for. I am sure it did work for you but remember, privilege usually is invisible to those who have it.

Method does NOT support PL! I think its time to understand that. If you keep reffering to Jdotb's interview. He does not speak for Method, as he is not part of their raid team. He is simply part of a M+ team with same name, which Sco pretty much sells. For sake, he even said he does not care about raiding, and he only does it because he thinks its a step towards his actual goal, which is M+. And about Exorsus, correct me if I am wrong, but they "went casual" after NH, so yeah, they are happy they will not feel obliged to do split runs. Method will still continue to do it
And about the "passionate" people, quite a lot of the people rooting for ML removal, who have shared their experience(while rest keeps hiding it....i wonder why), and have not even stepped into mythic raiding(where ML is being used). Some indeed have. Not denying that. Just calling you out on the bullshit you keep spilling

[Osmeric]

Not surprised at the sustained saltiness here. Mythic raiders are used to considering themselves to be at the top of the heap, and it's disconcerting when Blizzard in effect says "no, pleasing you is not our top priority; we're willing to make you unhappy to achieve some other goal we consider more important."

[KaPe]

Somehow you're assuming that a. normal and heroic guilds don't use ML and b. abuse should be indulged if the victims are few.

What a great mind you must have.

Normal and heroic is easily puggable and you can't use ML in those. So there's already a solution to this "problem". Not to mention it's entirely different mentality there, that's more about just fucking over other people than any "benefit of the guild". Drops from such difficulty aren't powerful enough to be worth a real drama.

[Dolus]

Of course it's my opinion. It's coming out of my fucking mouth isn't it? That's what an argument is. How do you know this won't happen? Have you raided mythic?

Then you go on to project what blizzard will do. Assuming that you know that there will be issues with forcing PL on everyone. And about people joining a new guild. You don't know them. They could flake at any moment. That's why they don't get anything until you know that they aren't gonna jump ship to another guild as soon as they've gotten what they wanted from you.



Thousands of people beg to differ. And I like arguing with people. It's funny to see them spout bullshit like the stuff I linked in my previous post.

Your "argument" is all over the place... argumentum ad verecundiam... ad hominem... red herring... so on.