Can BFA Mages get some CC back, so they can solo PvP without a "stun buddy" ?

[Deleted]

Can mages get some sort of CC back? It sucks to have next to nothing to shut down your opponent in 1v1/1vX situations by yourself.
Especially now in BFA with Warmode bringing back World PvP and encouraging solo PvP, it would've been so much fun if mages didn't just rely on either having cooldowns to one shot or having a "stun buddy" aka rogue/monk to kill someone in WPvP or a duel.
Legion and BFA completely stripped off the "kings of the crowd control" title from mages and made them "the only mobile caster", but mobility for a ranged class is mostly a defensive trait, so that doesn't help you much with killing people.

TLDR: Mages don't really have a hard CC for their KILL target. It's mostly slows and root, which shut downs melees to some degree. But against casters and healers you only have Counterspell, and against hunters you only have Polymorph for their pet. Except fire, fire has Dragon's Breath.

My suggestion:
Fire: Blast Wave baseline.
Frost: Deep Freeze, but breaks on damage like Ring of Frost.
Arcane: Supernova baseline, although I think arcane needs something more than just a short knockup.

I mean come on ... Spriests got their Phychic Horror stun back, Locks got Shadowfury baseline back.

Just compare the two ends: Demo lock vs Arcane Mage
Demo: pet stun, service pet stun/kick/seduce, shadowfury, mortal coil, fear, honor talent kick, honor talent fel lord repetitive stun off DR.
Arcane: slow, another slow, poly, kick.

Sure arcane has mobility, but which participates more into killing someone? Mobility or CC?

[Currently Retired]

Warrior is there for y--- What I can say from my experience as a healer is that whenever I face a mage - I feel so much safer and confident. Mages seem like one of the easiest classes to solo as a healer (that sounds so wrong). My friend who plays a mage with me in arenas struggles often as well. So... I guess I would like to see Mages get something.

[Champagne Supernova]

I wouldn't hold out hope. We're getting 2 new useless poly spells instead.

[kran1um]

already king trainers of melee in pvp, cant possibly want to be top dogs for casters too? The 3rd spectrum in RMP for top pvp for years, I cant take this post seriously - esp as arcane mage.

[Deleted]

Not sure what you're talking about kran1um.
Mage loses vs feral, unholy dk, fury warrior, windwalker, asssa/sub rogue, demon hunter and that's in open field. With pillars rets and enhance shamans also have very good chance, by just outlasting the mage.
Against ranged: Mages lose vs hunters, elemental, warlock, disc. Boomkins win almost every time if they have pillars too. And in BFA with vampiric embrace change(unless they nerf it) shadow priest beat mage as well. I mean I even won against venruki while first timing Spriest on BFA beta in a duel, with that 106% leech vampiric embrace on 38s cd.

[The Archmage]

As much as every Mage would like it, we have to accept that Blizzard does not see us as a solo class, in both PvE and PvP environments. We will always be outlasted and defeated 1v1 by other classes in PvP or by élites that are too tough to kill within a reasonable amount of time.

The main reason for this comes from class fantasy: Mages are the archetypal arcane spellcaster, which is generally presented as wielding devastating powers from afar at the expense of being vulnerable and unable to assist himself aswell as others in the face of danger. Therefore, our toolkit will always have to rely on others to provide what we lack.

[Deleted]

The main reason for this comes from class fantasy: Mages are the archetypal arcane spellcaster, which is generally presented as wielding devastating powers from afar at the expense of being vulnerable and unable to assist himself aswell as others in the face of danger. Therefore, our toolkit will always have to rely on others to provide what we lack.

What happened with the initial blizzard "mage class fantasy" from the game guides? Where mages are described as mobile casters with one of the scariest DPS in the game when left alone and with very high amount of control(CC).
I understand that blizzard wants every class to have strengths and weaknesses, but I feel like mage is the class with the most weaknesses. Squishy, no healing, not many defensives, low CC, mediocore utility(decurse and arcane intellect helps) and also the most vulnerable caster to spell locks and dispells due to each spec having mostly 1 spell school and all of our offensive buffs being purge-able.

[Shibito]

You frost mages were OP as fuck in pvp from vanilla too wotlk no more!

[klaps_05]

Bring back Blanket CS for all specs, original 4s off-gcd Deep freeze and Blast wave PROPER knockback(the one where you could knock people off lumber mill in AB).

[Salystra]

You frost mages were OP as f*** in pvp from vanilla too wotlk no more!

There's a difference to being OP to being the squishiest class in game by far (our spec shields also vary massively based on spec with frost being the only really viable one)

The game has changed there are sooooo many incapacity effects and catch up mechanics the "kite" is pretty much dead for mage so you end up pretty much taking it in the face.


Also if you have nothing to add, gtfo the mage forum its a valid point for those who actually play mage main.

[Deleted]

As much as every Mage would like it, we have to accept that Blizzard does not see us as a solo class, in both PvE and PvP environments. We will always be outlasted and defeated 1v1 by other classes in PvP or by élites that are too tough to kill within a reasonable amount of time.

The main reason for this comes from class fantasy: Mages are the archetypal arcane spellcaster, which is generally presented as wielding devastating powers from afar at the expense of being vulnerable and unable to assist himself aswell as others in the face of danger. Therefore, our toolkit will always have to rely on others to provide what we lack.

Mages lost so much of their strenght due to class balance that I find it unaccaptable that mages are weaker in PVE soloing. Legion made it a bit more fair thanks to blinkheal and legendaries healing but thats gone now.

In PVP i can understand it more as every class has its strenght. But it's rather ironic since the mages were one of the best soloers for a long time. But the aspect of kiting is gone i guess. Otherwise not too familiar with current pvp situation i mostly gave up on pvp since Cataclysm got out and mages were being trained. Although i had my fun in those openworld arena fights in Val'sharah.

[The Archmage]

Most of the people in here seem to suggest that it is impossible to avoid getting overrun by melees, but i beg to differ. I mostly play Arcane in PvP, and i find that more often then not i can kite melees quite efficiently, at least on a 1v1 scenario. Ofc, in random BGs you can get jumped by more than one at a time, and in that case, once you have exhausted your movement toolkit, you are indeed a sitting duck waiting to be slaughtered, but i don't think Mages are that squishy to be honest.

We are blessed by a good immunity in Ice Block, and as Arcane we have a hefty 60% dr thanks to our Invisibilities, one on a 1 minute cd and the other on a 2 minutes cd. When you consider that we are very hard to get in the first place thanks to Blinks and Displacement, i would not call us squishy in PvP.

Imho, surviving is not the problem, in itself. It's killing our target while surviving the problem, since all our defensive toolkit requires us to kite/actively use many defensives that occupy pretty much every global we have (depending on the threat we face, of course), which severly hinders our ability to deal damage. Other classes can simply pop a wall and happily keep on with their murdering intent, which we cannot unfortunately do as Mages.

[Cyanu]

from my understanding classes are balanced around 3v3 and mages have always been exceptional in it, however largely due to synergy with rogues,priests and druids in keeping people out of the game long enough to score a kill

the RMP/D comps have been deadly in skilled hands, even with this gimped version of mage they still are which makes adding something like Deep Freeze a crazy concept

however mages also happen to fare extremely poor in 2v2 (which is not working as a format anyways due to healers being nearly unkillable despite the high initial dampening) and 1v1 they only work against melee classes (mostly arcane)

as long as the focus of balance is 3v3 this cannot be addressed unless something radical happens (like nerfing polymorph) that will leave space for more options, but as of now spamming poly and novas on slowed targets is way too efficient to shut down an enemy trio, especially with a rogue stunning them on top

[Deleted]

Traditionally, mages always had huge issues with keeping high sustained damage up. You had to get that target in the CC/Burst moment low enough so your team (rogue) could finish the last 20% as the target started to pillar hugging.

Seems like thats still the case. Not sure if our burst is any stronger than others, just that we bring timewarp and Polymorph which is or was not shared on Diminishing returns with other CC allowing for it's synergy with other classes. (otherwise polymorph is weaker than the other classes versions of it)

[Deleted]

We are blessed by a good immunity in Ice Block, and as Arcane we have a hefty 60% dr thanks to our Invisibilities, one on a 1 minute cd and the other on a 2 minutes cd. When you consider that we are very hard to get in the first place thanks to Blinks and Displacement, i would not call us squishy in PvP.

Imho, surviving is not the problem, in itself. It's killing our target while surviving the problem, since all our defensive toolkit requires us to kite/actively use many defensives that occupy pretty much every global we have (depending on the threat we face, of course), which severly hinders our ability to deal damage. Other classes can simply pop a wall and happily keep on with their murdering intent, which we cannot unfortunately do as Mages.

Mass Invisibilty doesn't have 60% DR, only Greater Invis does.
I don't think mages need more surviveability against melees, but they do against caster. Not in terms of defensives, but in terms of CC or sudo interrupts like blast wave knockback or super nova knockup. Little things like that base line will help us tremendously with solo PvP and killing healers and other casters, which otherwise just cast in our face when our counterspell is on cooldown.

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Traditionally, mages always had huge issues with keeping high sustained damage up. You had to get that target in the CC/Burst moment low enough so your team (rogue) could finish the last 20% as the target started to pillar hugging.

Seems like thats still the case. Not sure if our burst is any stronger than others, just that we bring timewarp and Polymorph which is or was not shared on Diminishing returns with other CC allowing for it's synergy with other classes. (otherwise polymorph is weaker than the other classes versions of it)

Ever since WoD mages turned into cooldown-whores , you either one shot with your CDs, or they survive with low HP, but you cannot finish them off due to lack of kill target CC to shut them down.

Poly is the best off target CC, due to it's range/duration/DR. But overall if you take all possible situations into account, then polymorph is the worst spammable CC due to how one dimensional it is compared to the other ones which have a lot more flexibility. Fear doesn't clear DoTs and it doesn't reset targets HP, it can be used both defensively and offensively; Mind Control is pretty much a better version of Fear, but it's a channel adding more counterplay to it and it also has some very useful interactions with enemy spells; Cyclone cannot be dispelled and it prevents healing, making it insanely good for offensive plays/screwing with HoTs.

TLDR: Poly is good in arena for your focus target, but it's horrible/unusable on kill target or 1v1s.

[Deleted]

@jack, Fully agree with what you said in reply to me.

Mass Invisibilty doesn't have 60% DR, only Greater Invis does.
I don't think mages need more surviveability against melees, but they do against caster. Not in terms of defensives, but in terms of CC or sudo interrupts like blast wave knockback or super nova knockup. Little things like that base line will help us tremendously with solo PvP and killing healers and other casters, which otherwise just cast in our face when our counterspell is on cooldown.

The buthurt response; feels like mages have kept their traditional weakness from vanilla but lost most of it's strenght against melee.

Do sudo interrupts and interrupts also share DR? Because that is something to consider being a balancing issue as well if all the roots and incapacatiates are under DR system but not the interrupts.
Kind of the issue when you start putting one thing under DR that effects one archetype more than the other than you need to followthrough on the rest or just say fuck it and tweak the classes untill theirs a decent balance in arena scores. But than the initial change was pointless as well for the purpose of balance.

[wholol]

Can mages get some sort of CC back? It sucks to have next to nothing to shut down your opponent in 1v1/1vX situations by yourself.
Especially now in BFA with Warmode bringing back World PvP and encouraging solo PvP, it would've been so much fun if mages didn't just rely on either having cooldowns to one shot or having a "stun buddy" aka rogue/monk to kill someone in WPvP or a duel.
Legion and BFA completely stripped off the "kings of the crowd control" title from mages and made them "the only mobile caster", but mobility for a ranged class is mostly a defensive trait, so that doesn't help you much with killing people.

TLDR: Mages don't really have a hard CC for their KILL target. It's mostly slows and root, which shut downs melees to some degree. But against casters and healers you only have Counterspell, and against hunters you only have Polymorph for their pet. Except fire, fire has Dragon's Breath.

My suggestion:
Fire: Blast Wave baseline.
Frost: Deep Freeze, but breaks on damage like Ring of Frost.
Arcane: Supernova baseline, although I think arcane needs something more than just a short knockup.

I mean come on ... Spriests got their Phychic Horror stun back, Locks got Shadowfury baseline back.

Just compare the two ends: Demo lock vs Arcane Mage
Demo: pet stun, service pet stun/kick/seduce, shadowfury, mortal coil, fear, honor talent kick, honor talent fel lord repetitive stun off DR.
Arcane: slow, another slow, poly, kick.

Sure arcane has mobility, but which participates more into killing someone? Mobility or CC?

Why are you comparing mage to demo locks? if anything try to compare them to destro.

Also, mages have been top tier every expansion, some seasons were a bit lacking for rmp but there has never been a season where rmp couldn't reach R1, it's just a matter of who can play the class properly.

I feel your post is mostly directed towards open world 1v1, since anyone who plays arena seriously would never suggest adding MORE cc to mages, they're the fucking kings of setup, anyone who doesn't see this simply hasn't reached any decent level in arenas.

You can't give mages deep freeze again it will destroy 3s, rmp will be so broken( moreso than it already is ) everyone and their mothers will be running it.

[Deleted]

Why are you comparing mage to demo locks? if anything try to compare them to destro.

Also, mages have been top tier every expansion, some seasons were a bit lacking for rmp but there has never been a season where rmp couldn't reach R1, it's just a matter of who can play the class properly.

I feel your post is mostly directed towards open world 1v1, since anyone who plays arena seriously would never suggest adding MORE cc to mages, they're the fucking kings of setup, anyone who doesn't see this simply hasn't reached any decent level in arenas.

You can't give mages deep freeze again it will destroy 3s, rmp will be so broken( moreso than it already is ) everyone and their mothers will be running it.

Mages are doing fine in 3s, everyone knows that. But that's because of rogues filling the mage's biggest weaknesses. You can clearly see those weaknesses in 2v2s, duels and WPvP ... my point is not about mage in 3v3 arena, but in the rest of PvP activities where we've become so reliant on a "buddy with stun".
Sure, there are some things that partialy negate this issue. Like overbuffing mage's damage/burst, just like in Legion WPvP where you can literally 2 shot someone with arcane blasts, but that's not the correct way of doing it obviously.
And now in BFA mage lack of "kill CC" is more apparent than ever in WPvP, due to the PvP scaling they've added, meaning you can't just global people left and right.
Finally having WPvP once again after Cataclysm killing it and having your spec sucking at it, just coz the game is balance around 3v3 arena. THAT SUCKS!

[Enchant]

We'll always be the support other specializations need. I'm fine with us being a glass canon (wet paper towel with Legion), it's why I play the class. If they upped our damage at least, I'd be fine with that, too.

[Deleted]

feels like mages have kept their traditional weakness from vanilla but lost most of it's strenght against melee.

Mages are completely fine against most melees due to shimmer. But against ele shaman, warlock, assa/sub rogue, mm/bm hunter, havoc demon hunter, UH DK, feral, all healers and some tank specs you just need some kind of CC to prevent them from either healing/purging your CDs/running away or just killing you. Having only mobility, damage, bunch of slows as CC and some utility(poly, decurse, arcane intellect,etc) isn't enough to have a complete a class that can function by itself in most scenarios.

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We'll always be the support other specializations need. I'm fine with us being a glass canon (wet paper towel with Legion), it's why I play the class. If they upped our damage at least, I'd be fine with that, too.

Except there's no "cannon" since WoD, due to fireball, frostbolt, scorch aka "the fillers" hit like wet noodles. Your "cannon" part starts and ends with your offensive cooldowns. The only spec that can do scary damage while free casting is arcane, but it also has the least opportunity to do so due to having 90% of your spec on Arcane school and it's also limited by your mana.

And blizzard probably won't buff our consistent dmg, coz that will make us OP in 3s.