"Trials deserve loot too"

[nocturnus]

I aproove this. Which is why i propose stats on gear get removed.

I wholeheartedly concur; gear only having cosmetic value would make WoW a much better game, in my opinion. The question is if it would remain a successful game.

I'm quite sure all these self-proclaimed "bleeding-edge mythic raiders", whose progress would purportedly suffer from the removal of LC would agree with you too, since "loot isn't a reward, but only a tool".

Want example: i have several 980 and 985 items. Most from bonus rolls. Most are also dog shit for my dps main spec, while bis or just good for my tank off spec. All ways i’ve had obtaining those items, work on the personal loot method

This does happen frequently, the 960-980 haste jewelry in my bags speak volumes. Which is why this change can only be implemented when item level upgrades become significant again. It's no coincidence that Blizzard's actually doing an effort to make this happen by changing efficacy values of primary and secondary stats.

[OreoLover]

Yes you can, because mythic has a 20 player limit. You deny at least one of your core raiders the chance for loot.

So your argument against trial-ing here, is that trials will take a spot.

That's not very good.

[JackWest]

I wholeheartedly concur; gear only having cosmetic value would make WoW a much better game, in my opinion. The question is if it would remain a successful game.

I'm quite sure all these alleged "bleeding-edge mythic raiders" would agree with you too, since "loot isn't a reward, but only a tool".

That was my whole point from the start. A lot people said, that blizz ‘knows best’ so that must mean the changes they do are ‘correct’ or ‘right’. No. What blizz does changes for profit. And we can all agree the casual crowd makes the biggest portion of the game, so its natural blizz caters for them. However, that doesnt mean the changes are actually making the game better. They just make it more appealing for certain people

[klaps_05]

I'm not sure the actual designers would agree with this.


Frustrating, maybe. I wonder if Method, or any other similar guild, will blame bad 'loot RNG' for not being world first come BFA.


Are you implying that this change's aftereffect will be that people will play for longer periods of time?

The design is "you can go kill that and it drops items". How you view the items that drop depends on your attitude towards the game - for progression guilds, the items are tools, because their goal is to advance and aim to get a better ranking each tier. For others, the items are a reward which maybe enables them to do other things in game or simply to feel satisfied they got something.

What the change does is more or less remove the tool for progression guilds and replaces it with RNG. Yes, you can force people to trade gear away, you can go with it and accept that people will get random gear, but the point is you trade a "system to gear up your raid to progress faster" for RNG.

Imagine the current PvP system where you get a random item each arena/rbg win, but without stat templates. Everyone is equal at the start, but not for long and instead of skill dictating who will be Glad, it will be just items. You can have 10 Glad titles, if you are ilevel 850ish vs a 950 ilevel guy, your arena prep time will be longer than the fight inside. Now imagine early on one or two of your team mates get lucky, but you arent getting much from the loot - they can just ditch you and find someone who is on their ilevel to stomp even harder. Now you are stuck to once again playing with people with gear matching yours until the same repeats.

[burek]

Update: i couldnt find the person i wanted to quote so i will go without it. Someone said they prefered to be abused by the game than other players. I prefer to be abused by players. Why? Because i control who i pay with, hence i can stop the abuse in the first place. I cant do anything about game’s abise.

If you like to get abused by people join an S&M club. WoW is not a place for that.

And you can always quit the game if you don't like it, that's the same level of argument as telling someone to quit a guild. And you are never in full control with who exactly you play with, unless you are a GM and can kick whoever you want. On the other hand, you are in full control of which game you are playing. And if you don't like the concept of loot, RPGs are definitely not for you.

[Deleted]

Back in the old days, we had a simple rule for trials/guests. Every elligble person in the raid gets to roll for said item. If an outsider won that roll, the item would be theirs. If anyone of our guild won the roll, the item would go through our regular lootrules. This was fair to everyone. Outsiders were given a fair chance to get a piece of loot and we could do our own looting if they didn't win.

[JackWest]

If you like to get abused by people join an S&M club. WoW is not a place for that.

And you can always quit the game if you don't like it, that's the same level of argument as telling someone to quit a guild. And you are never in full control with who exactly you play with, unless you are a GM and can kick whoever you want. On the other hand, you are in full control of which game you are playing. And if you don't like the concept of loot, RPGs are definitely not for you.

That goes both ways mate. By your ‘argument’ i can say ‘dont like how people run their guilds? You are free to play Guild Wars instead’
And if you are against groups of players deciding how they run their grp, perhaps mmo games are not for you

[nocturnus]

That was my whole point from the start. A lot people said, that blizz ‘knows best’ so that must mean the changes they do are ‘correct’ or ‘right’. No. What blizz does changes for profit. And we can all agree the casual crowd makes the biggest portion of the game, so its natural blizz caters for them. However, that doesnt mean the changes are actually making the game better. They just make it more appealing for certain people

Well, before we can even broach this nigh philosophical course of thought, we'd have to determine what "better" means.

Does "better" mean more enjoyable? Or does "better" mean more profitable? Could these two results be connected? It all depends on your frame of reference.

[JackWest]

Well, before we can even broach this nigh philosophical course of thought, we'd have to determine what "better" means.

Does "better" mean more enjoyable? Or does "better" mean more profitable? Could these two results be connected? It all depends on your frame of reference.

Which is why i am against people saying ‘blizz knows better. Their decision is for the best’

[Frolk]

master loot doesnt gel with their new game design ethos of making the grind endless, so goodbye master loot and we get spoon fed a public relations safe excuse like trials deserve loot, its laughable how transparent it is.

Gotta extend playtime u know, by ANY means.

[burek]

Gotta extend playtime u know, by ANY means.

Whose playtime is actually being extended by this change? Are you maybe canceling your subscription as soon you get funneled with gear? The average mythic guild raids the entire tier, most don't even manage to complete it. Top guilds stay to farm the mounts and prepare for next tier.

[nocturnus]

Which is why i am against people saying ‘blizz knows better. Their decision is for the best’

I might have missed the replies where people alluded to that.

Blizzard decided to implement legendaries and you'd have to be an imbecile to think that was a good idea. So yeah, they're far from perfect.

Whose playtime is actually being extended by this change?

No one. It's just another asinine rhubarb, nothing more.

[Tawm]

Yeah, those lesser individuals surely don't deserve to be treated as equals for putting in the same amount of time and effort. You're in the sun now, snowflake.

[psyquest]

I like master loot. Make it simpler to give gear to the players needing it to kill a boss.

But boy will I be happy not to have to deal with the headache of master loot and checking each loot to make sure it is fair and take into account all sort of shit.

bring on ML, at least those unlucky sods that didnt get loot or farm mythic+ will have only themselves to blame :-/

[Deleted]

at least those unlucky sods that didnt get loot or farm mythic+ will have only themselves to blame :-/

That is not how blame works. "The system" will be to blame. "Equal" chances and rights will be shouted and whined for, nevermind the differences in time, effort and skill investment. There will always be someone/something else to blame. Raider.io, gearscore, wowprogress, ML, toxic people, logs, etc.

[Samuraijake]

Not what Blizzard thinks, overruled.

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I know you and your buddies think you're clever but I'll just not loot the body and go my merry way /shrug.

This^ THIS right here^, i already do that now in pugs on days i dont feel like being bothered for loot.

OR

During Guild raid nights where i suspect a BoE maybe waiting for -me- off trash mobs. :Auto-Loot the mobs : Off

[Leodric]

So your argument against trial-ing here, is that trials will take a spot.

That's not very good.

I have nothing against trialing at all. Don't know where you get that from. I even said many times that this change will hit trials who have barely any experience, because guilds will be not as willing to invite these kind of trials because of PL.

[kooz]

disliking ml for the reasons of having to do less splits doesnt mean you dislike the system itself.

hard concept i know

while irrelevant here, maybe a good point, I'm not sure yet, never done splits.

still, no matter what the top guild won't care less about ML gone.

[Leodric]

And you can always quit the game if you don't like it, that's the same level of argument as telling someone to quit a guild.

Totally the same the amount of mental gymnastic in that statement is amazing.

[kooz]

Yes you can, because mythic has a 20 player limit. You deny at least one of your core raiders the chance for loot.

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Considering the stuff you've wrote I heavily doubt that you have the capacity or raid knowledge to agree on Exorsus reasoning on why they would like PL to be removed. If, as another poster here already explained, they had the chance to remove split runs and keep ML, they most likely would keep that. Your whole reasoning is that "I met jerks all the time". That's barely a reasoning and you know what they say about people who meet jerks all the time? They are most likely the problem, not the others.

Also it's the same number every time. People can't come up with arguments anymore and come with the "Blizzard knows best" thing. Blizzard doesn't know best, they are not some kind of omnipotent being which can look into the future and decide for the best. Even in interviews they've admited doing mistakes, which is totally fine and I am not saying they are not 'allowed' to do them. But stating it's a good chance because Blizzard implements it is very naive and no argument at all.

I never pretended I have knowledge that Exorsus has when they voiced their stance they welcome PL. I don't know much about splits and have never done them, for example.

And of course Blizz knows, I believe Blizz has knowledge based on data (this is the argument) why they have implemented the change better for most (so it was likely not "just my problem"), not for a tiny minority, again, it's a closed deal, too late to cry.