Game is becoming increasingly dumbed down

[Akka]

In terms of overall skill ceiling and challenge, the only real difference these days is that mobs aren't overtuned, we're usually leveling up with gear that has decent stats on it (as opposed to using a +2STR/+3STAM 2h sword at level 30 because nothing better's dropped yet)

You're taking it the wrong way : it's more that mob weren't UNDERtuned at the time, and we had gear with decent stat while we have vastly OVERpowered gear now.

[gobio]

#METOO

To the guy who claim he has 3 spells that is not talents in his bar, what is your spec?

[lockybalboa]

Cata was actually challenging at the start of the expansion

[Conditions]

* Class Design is at an all-time low.

Most specs now are both incredibly easy to play and easy to master. The gap between a good player and a bad player has never been smaller

Partially agree. Their perception of class design and "class fantasy" is skewed. But would disagree the gap is small and that classes were ever super difficult to play, they were just difficult to play extremely well and in a lot of cases still are. People got used to older mechanics the same way they did now, but the MMO playerbase as a whole are better skilled these days. Watch how quickly people will hit 60, gear up and progress in Vanilla when classic comes out.

* The amount of handholding during questing is jaw-dropping

Questing was ever difficult? Most people had QuestHelper/Tomtom anyway.

* Pruning is over the top

We haven´t got any meaningful (permanent) abilities since WoD and from now on every new ability/cool interaction we earn will be taken away from us at the start of a new expansion. Core abilities are turned into talents (Hammer of Wrath, Shadow Word: Death, Consecration...) which shows lack of ideas and lazy design. In the game´s current state, more buttons would indeed mean more engaging gameplay. Depth is gone.

Agreed. What is even more painful is when they take away core or even regularly used niche abilities and make them talents, thus giving tiers where there is never really a choice. For example in 3s against anything with a Mage a Priest was basically forced into taking Premonition for the SWD backlash effect.

* Everything is made to take longer without being challenging.

Yes, they changed the leveling process. But it is still just as brainless as before, only takes longer. There is no challenge whatsoever, except getting through the slugfest while accepting that three rotational abilities is all you have. What has become of old Combustion? Old Efflorescence? MoP engaging class gameplay? The game is being designed for half-wits and people with dysfunctional neurotransmitter circuits now. It is reflecting whats going on in the world in general. People are stupid and it is lucrative to cater to stupidity instead of trying to raise people to their senses and wake them up.

Only MMO I've played with good levelling is FFXIV. It wasn't fun before (well kinda was because it was new, but a lot of people hate it now).

* BfA feels more like a patch than an expansion and everything is reused, but just has a new name

1) warfronts - similar to WoD garrison invasions

2) island expeditions - similar to legion invasions / invasion points

3) the whole setting up of our base in the new zone feels like establishing a garrison in WoD

4) the azerite system feels so much like the Netherlight Crucible. It also feels like a system meant to tax those who play multiple specs

Haven't looked into BFA in Depth enough to argue against this. But those points are correct.

5) right now leveling in BfA is just useless, you don´t become stronger, you don´t gain any cool interactions with spells or new abilities. There is no level 120 talent row. You just level because you have to. The road is compulsory. But in the past we at least got something along the way, be it new abilities, talents, artifact skills or cool interactions every 2 levels.

Again, MMO levelling is bad

6) the whole Honor system is almost entirely unchanged. Most of the entire talent system is unchanged. Almost all specs feel the same. Even Prestige rewards stay the same. Keystone Master achievement rewards will stay the same, too. No new one for bfa +15 completion. Feels half-assed, rushed and characteristic of a game whose lead developer tries to manage the decline of, not to bring it to new heights

M+ is just straight up wasted potential lol.

7) the whole time-gating fiasco will be more ridiculous than ever before. You might get a new item but you cannot upgrade it because your azerite level is not high enough so you have to wait weeks to be able to use it properly. Expect this to continue throughout the whole expansion. You receive a cool carrot but it will stay in your backpack and waiting for being able to equip it is like waiting for a timer to run out

I like time-gating, because I don't want to feel like I have to play to keep maxed out on everything.

8) it seems the game emphasizes cosmetic rewards more than anything. Sad that most people seem to have forgotten how cheap the current allied races actually look, the Nightborne in particular.

Void Elf is even cheaper. Budget Alliance belf basically.

[syar]

They are not catering to casuals , that is the biggest nonsense. If anything we have zero satisfying casual content ... everything is trivialised except hardcore raiding. I do not have time to mythic raid , so I am left to content that is so meaningless and easy that I have no motivation to do. In vanilla for example challanging content could be found at level 1o while questing.

If you want to call this new design philosophy something I suggest that you call it the far leftist wow. Because the main idea is forced equality of everything on everyone.

[Gardoc]

When I was 14 I was unable to solve a simple equation, now I do it easily. Obviously equations have gotten easier.

- - - Updated - - -



For sure. Back in Vanilla the good mages had completely mastered the 1 button rotation, while the bad players actually sometimes used other spells. Oh the noobs! Shit was hard back then for sure! And, get this.. In Wrath, sometimes holy paladins actually stopped spamming HL of FoL on the tanks to cast something else! What are they, retarded?! Nah man, those one button rotations took serious skill.

It so funny when people think being a good player equals mastering your rotation. It only shows how bad they are at the game.

[Deleted]

WoW was never difficult that's why it's successful

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Cata was actually challenging at the start of the expansion

Oh god I remember people rolling Grim Batol at launch and just quitting group and taking the deserter penalty rather than go through that mess.

WoW was never difficult that's why it's successful

Shoutouts to the pre-2004 tradition of dying costing you experience.

[Tommy T]

Cata was actually challenging at the start of the expansion

Early Cata was Golden Age WoW imo.

Most fun I've had playing.
Immensely enjoyed tanking the opening raids + heroics.

[Conditions]

Early Cata was Golden Age WoW imo.

Most fun I've had playing.
Immensely enjoyed tanking the opening raids + heroics.

The last time I had to CC a mob in a dungeon outside of high m+ keys.

[Deleted]

Players have got better (lol) and thats a factor. My biggest gripe with the game right now is class design.
A paladin and warriors attacks are near identical for example, the only real difference is animation, all class rotations are the same 3-4 buttons simply different animations.

[Molis]

2010 called they want their opinion back.

[Divinexve]

Man I miss vanilla only using frostbolt

[cocomen2]

For me MOP was Almost close to balance around pvp (ever that game been), each class was fun to play and all of them got new skills at lvl cap (he he BFA will not give you no talents no skills, only take yours skills away to make them talents HO HO HO); only problem of MOP were warrior talent "SECOND WIND" some boy was like -Lets put warriors on mega selfregen as if they Wolverine. (if someone would nerf it to 1% per sec it would be perfect)

[Jastall]

Its not like a secret that the general conscent is that most classes were at their best in mop

And during MoP everyone was whining about how Wrath or BC had the best design. This shit isn't new and has been happening since forever, the only real change is that Blizzard's bad handling of the pruning has given more munitions to the people who would complain anyway.

The reality is that even specs that are deemed faceroll, like BM Hunter, have large gaps in performance between poor, average and top players in every content. If it was piss easy to play, that wouldn't be the case. Not to mention people focus on these specs, but Legion has its fair share of complex specs like Unholy, Disc or Demonology (which plays like shit in Legion, yes, but is quite complex still, also shows that complexity =/= fun).

[ro9ue]

Maybe you're just getting smarter OP.

[lostinwoods]

If they copy/pasted the classes from MoP or even BC/Wotlk I'd resub without hesitation, even with the time-gating facebook mission tables and no flying.

[Palladium]

They are not catering to casuals , that is the biggest nonsense. If anything we have zero satisfying casual content ... everything is trivialised except hardcore raiding. I do not have time to mythic raid , so I am left to content that is so meaningless and easy that I have no motivation to do. In vanilla for example challanging content could be found at level 1o while questing.

If you want to call this new design philosophy something I suggest that you call it the far leftist wow. Because the main idea is forced equality of everything on everyone.

This is the best post in the thread.

[Multitorix Davlen]

* Class Design is at an all-time low.

Most specs now are both incredibly easy to play and easy to master. The gap between a good player and a bad player has never been smaller

* The amount of handholding during questing is jaw-dropping

* Pruning is over the top

We haven´t got any meaningful (permanent) abilities since WoD and from now on every new ability/cool interaction we earn will be taken away from us at the start of a new expansion. Core abilities are turned into talents (Hammer of Wrath, Shadow Word: Death, Consecration...) which shows lack of ideas and lazy design. In the game´s current state, more buttons would indeed mean more engaging gameplay. Depth is gone.

* Everything is made to take longer without being challenging.

Yes, they changed the leveling process. But it is still just as brainless as before, only takes longer. There is no challenge whatsoever, except getting through the slugfest while accepting that three rotational abilities is all you have. What has become of old Combustion? Old Efflorescence? MoP engaging class gameplay? The game is being designed for half-wits and people with dysfunctional neurotransmitter circuits now. It is reflecting whats going on in the world in general. People are stupid and it is lucrative to cater to stupidity instead of trying to raise people to their senses and wake them up.

* BfA feels more like a patch than an expansion and everything is reused, but just has a new name

1) warfronts - similar to WoD garrison invasions

2) island expeditions - similar to legion invasions / invasion points

3) the whole setting up of our base in the new zone feels like establishing a garrison in WoD

4) the azerite system feels so much like the Netherlight Crucible. It also feels like a system meant to tax those who play multiple specs

5) right now leveling in BfA is just useless, you don´t become stronger, you don´t gain any cool interactions with spells or new abilities. There is no level 120 talent row. You just level because you have to. The road is compulsory. But in the past we at least got something along the way, be it new abilities, talents, artifact skills or cool interactions every 2 levels.

6) the whole Honor system is almost entirely unchanged. Most of the entire talent system is unchanged. Almost all specs feel the same. Even Prestige rewards stay the same. Keystone Master achievement rewards will stay the same, too. No new one for bfa +15 completion. Feels half-assed, rushed and characteristic of a game whose lead developer tries to manage the decline of, not to bring it to new heights

7) the whole time-gating fiasco will be more ridiculous than ever before. You might get a new item but you cannot upgrade it because your azerite level is not high enough so you have to wait weeks to be able to use it properly. Expect this to continue throughout the whole expansion. You receive a cool carrot but it will stay in your backpack and waiting for being able to equip it is like waiting for a timer to run out

8) it seems the game emphasizes cosmetic rewards more than anything. Sad that most people seem to have forgotten how cheap the current allied races actually look, the Nightborne in particular.


I could go on and on. Did I say that the game is becoming increasingly dumbed down? Oh yes, it is. But that´s to be expected, because humanity is becoming increasingly dumbed down, despite the fact that raising the level of one´s consciousness has never been easier...

First *: I can agree and disagree here, the specs are easier to understand but you will still have people struggle to play the spec correctly. I have seen plenty of people in 900-930 gear pulling the same numbers as people in the 850's.

Second *: Nothing has changed since modders and then blizzard introduced map trackers. So this point is irrelevant for current discussions.

third *: I can agree with this in terms of lazy class design, taking stuff away to only repackage as something 'new'. But in terms of depth i have to disagree as that's a subjective point.

Fourth *: I think this was Blizzard's intent when they changed leveling to be 'slower' but insulting people's intelligence hurts your argument. The game and frankly leveling has never been difficult, ever. If someone mentions vanilla it STILL was not hard then. "Oh but if you pulled more than one mob you died, that's hard!" No its not, something being dangerous for the player doesn't make it difficult. What made leveling difficult was situational awareness, not the actual combat itself. The spikes or death zones in Mega Man are dangerous, but they're not difficult to understand. The danger levels was massively reduced years following vanilla as it was too harsh for low levels, which I agree with. And leveling should be somewhat meaningful, despite what people believe, endgame is not the whole game so it should take time to get there.

Fifth *: You have not tested these on Beta, I can TELL you have not tested these as a few of these points are wrong.

1)Warfronts do not act nor have the same feel as garrison invasions. It is more attuned to an advanced version of the old Alterac Valley.

2) Island expeditions are more akin to MoP scenarios, legion invasions/points are massively different to what you do on the island.

3) I haven't gotten to max on beta so I assume this is when you get access to the other island? If so why is that bad? Is it because it reminds you of the big bad WoD expansion? This is moot as it is a narrative issue which is subjective and I cannot agree with it.

4) Azerite is a mix between the artifact weapons and the Netherlight, yes. It does not tax those who play multiple specs more than what legion already has done, if anything it makes it far easier as you dont have to worry about multible weapons gaining AP. If someone points out having to get multiple sets for multiple specs because of the new traits, you do that anyways due to how secondary stats work per spec, so...?

5) This point is stupid, the importance of leveling is to get stronger but you argue that you don't. So in BFA someone who is level 90 is the same strength as someone who is 120? That is just factually wrong. As for the skills and new interaction, that is only somewhat true. The azerite system is suppose(regardless if it achieves it or not right now) to accomplish the same thing as the artifact weapon from Legion, so as you level and after you are done, you are gaining AP which impacts how the heart of azeroth augments your combat. You even point out artifact skills as something you got while leveling in Legion, azerite is literally just that. Leveling also introduces you to the story of the new expansion, you're suppose to learn about the characters and interact with them like you would in any other rpg. Leveling is more than compulsory.

6) After it had just massively changed for Legion its not surprising it wouldn't for BFA, so this is moot. As for new keystone master, why would it be different in BFA when you're accomplishing the same thing?

7) I dont get this point, maybe you misunderstand azerite armor. Its just regular armor but with glorified sockets that unlock with free gems already inside after a certain point. The azerite levels is universal so if you have level 6 unlocked on one piece its unlocked for all. Azerite level is not the same as character level, which dictates whether or not you can equip an appropriate piece of gear.

8) I wanna look cool. I wanted to look cool since day 1 of the game launching, 13 years later i still want to look cool. This point is subjective and has nothing to do with dumbing down the game.

Could go on and on, but its apparent that the game doesn't cure cancer so why bother.

[Deleted]

It so funny when people think being a good player equals mastering your rotation. It only shows how bad they are at the game.

It's a combination of a lot of things, where mastering your class and mastering boss mechanics are two very good metrics. And it is an objective truth that it was easier to master your class during WoW's inception, and boss mechanics were too. Blizzard themselves have stated this on numerous occasions, and so have most professional guilds. Don the tin foil hat and argue against this if you want, I'm not gonna bother retorting though. Also, I would consider my several CE achievements and playing in a guild ranked below 800 in the entire world during Legion at least a small feather in my cap when it comes to being good at the game.