~80% tank threat reduction on beta

[Deleted]

Good for the game, plain and simple.

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We used to tank with a threat mechanic, and it wasn't hard, I did plenty of shattered halls speed runs on my warrior and it was good times. Tanking without threat is fucking lol. I welcome it back.

If you go hard as a tank, you won't have aggro problems. Thunderclap + AFK is not enough, back then you would queue cleave on every attack and tab target a lot and you could hold 10 mobs against cleave DPS.

If this means bad tanks get called out, good. It should be made obvious if someone is playing abnormally bad, they can learn that way, otherwise they never will.

Could not agree more mate.

Just to add something i posted elsewhere on this subject.

Currently dungeons, including M+ just revolve around chain pulls and aoe mashing which only goes to further separate classes that cannot perform well in the burst aoe environment, see shadow priest representation in M+ as an example. Now there is still room for that type of zerg play, but it just requires the dps to actually watch what they are doing threat wise and adds another layer of skill to playing your class as well as making tanking a bit harder.

The mark of a good dps from bygone expansions where threat mattered was maximizing output and staying just below the tank on threat, but never pulling aggro and the mark of a good tank was building that aggro to sufficient levels that dps were not taking aggro from you and any that do on occasion you can taunt back in time. Those dps that just chain pull aggro will soon learn not to by being dead all the time.

Now there are those that will cry about this change as they will just see it as fettering there dps spec, but there were abilities that let you drop threat i.e soulshatter for example. I would welcome the return of those types of ability as all it does is add another layer to the toolkit of what is already a much overpruned game to be fair.

In short aggro was never an issue to good dps as they played around and respected it as a mechanic and if it serves the purpose of returning that extra layer of gameplay as well as making tanking more interesting than it is, that can only be good for the game.

[Keile]

Sounding like this change REALLY DOESN'T EFFECT normal game play.


It's intended to stop people from cheesing higher level mythic+ levels where basically tanks would get threat (for example...Blood DK would blood boil twice)...then just RUN AWAY while DPS attack the mobs, and they would never loose threat, as if they stood and tanked it...they would die due to the damage being put out

This means tanks will have to stay engaged in combat, but under NORMAL CONDITIONS (where the tank is actually tanking and not running away...) there shouldn't be any noticeable changes and threat will still be easy.

[Soon-TM]

I seldom agree with Ion's decisions, but gotta say he's right on this one. The only needed change would be to add a way for bursty AoE specs like Ele (and Enh to a lesser extent) shammy and Fury warr to deal with accidental aggro pulls, since for these specs there is no way to control their AoE aside from doing nothing, which many ppl will frown upon in the current situation. My suggestion would be to give an AoE frost shock (like the old Cone of Cold mage spell), and they have earthgrab totem as well. As for fury warriors, they should be able to offtank for a limited time, if only by equipping a 1-hander and a shield + a couple of cd's.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

If this means bad tanks get called out, good. It should be made obvious if someone is playing abnormally bad, they can learn that way, otherwise they never will.

Didn't Ghostcrawler say that they've generally found that people don't get better?
Also we're going to run into gearing issues. A lower geared tank might end up being completely unable to hold threat against an overgeared DPS.

It doesn't sound awful, but there are some issues.

[Tech614]

Didn't Ghostcrawler say that they've generally found that people don't get better?

Yet healers don't get a free "heal all button" to negate a skill check nor the same for a DPS. If a healer is bad the group is punished for it, if the dps is bad the group is punished for it, why should the tank get a get out of jail free card by only having to hit 1 button at the start of a pull to hold aggro for eternity?

Shit tanks should be exposed for being shit tanks, the same as every other role is.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Yet healers don't get a free "heal all button" to negate a skill check nor the same for a DPS. If a healer is bad the group is punished for it, if the dps is bad the group is punished for it, why should the tank get a get out of jail free card by only having to hit 1 button at the start of a pull to hold aggro for eternity?

Shit tanks should be exposed for being shit tanks, the same as every other role is.

The distinction between tank quality is supposed to be AM usage under the previous philosophy. If the tank is bad, the healer can't keep them alive. Clearly the philosophy has changed.
I still don't think lack of gear makes you a bad tank, and yet it looks likely we'll see that be a problem.
Also worth noting that poor DPS isn't usually punished since enough good DPS can pull the weight of those who underperform in a random group. Random content isn't tuned around everyone playing well.

[Tech614]

If the tank is bad, the healer can't keep them alive.

This is so false right now, for any content where you would actually experience bad players even a below mediocre healer can keep a bad tank alive.

Random content isn't tuned around everyone playing well.

That's the thing, we're not talking about playing well. We're talking about not playing so hilariously bad you look like JR Smith. You don't have to play "well" to hold aggro with a 4x threat modifier+taunt in random content. You just have to not be horrendous. A tank consistently losing aggro in current BFA model is equivalent to a healer that just afk follows the group and casts nothing unless someone drops to 10% health. Either pure laziness, or really really really bad player.

[zaino]

I am rogue. This change really doesn’t matter lol

[Conditions]

Let tanks be tanks again.

[Kalisandra]

I seldom agree with Ion's decisions, but gotta say he's right on this one. The only needed change would be to add a way for bursty AoE specs like Ele (and Enh to a lesser extent) shammy and Fury warr to deal with accidental aggro pulls, since for these specs there is no way to control their AoE aside from doing nothing, which many ppl will frown upon in the current situation. My suggestion would be to give an AoE frost shock (like the old Cone of Cold mage spell), and they have earthgrab totem as well. As for fury warriors, they should be able to offtank for a limited time, if only by equipping a 1-hander and a shield + a couple of cd's.

They don't have Earthbind any more, only Earthgrab, which means dropping it, and running. I really don't like the 'AoE Frost Shock' idea much, either. It's a cop-out. Give everyone proper threat management tools, or don't go there at all.

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This is so false right now, for any content where you would actually experience bad players even a below mediocre healer can keep a bad tank alive.

Right now is the end of the expansion, so it's a really bad measure of such things, as always.

[Keile]

I am rogue. This change really doesn’t matter lol

It doesnt matter...at all.

As I stated earlier, it'll only impact people who try and cheese mechanics like they currently do in Mythic+. Right now in the really high level Mythic+ runs tanks will grab threat and then just kite the mobs around so they can avoid the damage (lest they be killed in seconds) while DPS have free reign to DPS to their hearts content.

With the change this won't work anymore, as now the tank wont instantly have as much threat, but in any fight where the tank is actually doing....any damage at all and isn't just trying to run and kite DPS will still be able to blow their wads and not worry about pulling aggro.

[Tech614]

Right now in the really high level Mythic+ runs tanks will grab threat and then just kite the mobs around so they can avoid the damage (lest they be killed in seconds)

Tanks don't kite mass pulls in M+ so they don't die, in fact it's almost impossible to kill a VDH or BDK unless it's an extremely high key.

They kite the mass pulls because the AI is coded so that if the tank is out of range all they do is try to run to the tank instead of using their group wide or random target abilities that will kill everyone else, not the tank.

It cheeses the entire pull, it's not about reducing tank damage which is kind of irrelevant. That's why it's being altered, and that's also why they are going to use skittish in the MDI live finals to see some alternative strategies.

[Keile]

Tanks don't kite mass pulls in M+ so they don't die, in fact it's almost impossible to kill a VDH or BDK unless it's an extremely high key.

They kite the mass pulls because the AI is coded so that if the tank is out of range all they do is try to run to the tank instead of using their group wide or random target abilities that will kill everyone else, not the tank.

It cheeses the entire pull, it's not about reducing tank damage which is kind of irrelevant. That's why it's being altered, and that's also why they are going to use skittish in the MDI live finals to see some alternative strategies.

Regardless of the reasons, this 80% threat nerf won't really impact normal gameplay, only those who try to cheese.

It sounds like a big nerf, but when you consider how high tank threat has been buffed over the years...even after an 80% nerf they will sill make more threat than a DPS can.

[Deleted]

Most of you in this thread do realise that this change has been live on beta for a while now?

Tanks are still doing x4 the threat of a dps just not x10 anymore.

Its there to stop cheese kiting strats in M+ and make threat semi important to tanks again as it should be.

The reason ppl who actually have beta are not complaining about it, is that most havent noticed as its changed nothing.

[Deleted]

Terrible plan. Most dps won't give a shit and will just whine that the tank is bad if they overaggro. It already happens during Skittish week

Well you can just kick them?

[SirBeef]

Regardless of the reasons, this 80% threat nerf won't really impact normal gameplay, only those who try to cheese.

It sounds like a big nerf, but when you consider how high tank threat has been buffed over the years...even after an 80% nerf they will sill make more threat than a DPS can.

Again tanking right now, as long as DPS doesn't blow their load on something other than my target or blows their AoE/cleave load threat is really not an issue still. after two concencrates it all good again unless DPS is banging hard on not my target.

[therealbowser]

I don't get to choose what M+ I do, currently only get to do M+15.

However - in Vanilla - CC was required even in a basic level 40 dungeon.

Aggro needs to come back - and it is in BfA. That is good. Maybe they'll need to tune how much, but this whole 'spam your AoE button until stuff is dead' needs to go.

It would still be 'spam your AOE button until stuff is dead' otherwise any kind of AOE pull would feel bad, period. Trying to force crowd control back into dungeons is just going to feel extremely tedious, it's not going to improve the game. And that really feels like what Blizzard is hoping for... and I have no idea why.

Making aggro more relevant is a great idea (as opposed to 100% mindless, maybe make it possible a high DPS could burst and pull threat if you're not careful) but I'm extremely skeptical about its implementation with a massive -80% reduction. Making it something you have to actively juggle is going to detract from tanks other duties (you know, handling damage) and is going to make people whine and complain about tanks and in general, make it so there are less people tanking and longer queues for everyone else. Not to mention it will slow down dungeons and make the game feel slower (IE, feel worse).

I posted it before, I'll post it again... I really don't think Blizzard is thinking this through.

[elynos]

I don't get to choose what M+ I do, currently only get to do M+15.

However - in Vanilla - CC was required even in a basic level 40 dungeon.

Aggro needs to come back - and it is in BfA. That is good. Maybe they'll need to tune how much, but this whole 'spam your AoE button until stuff is dead' needs to go.

they would have to make it so aoe or splash doesn't hit cc'd targets.

[Nevcairiel]

they would have to make it so aoe or splash doesn't hit cc'd targets.

Uncontrollable automatic splash already does not. Casting an explicit targeted AoE will hit everything, and should as well.
Gotta pay attention where you fight.

[Soon-TM]

I guess I just don't trust the DPS playerbase to actually give a shit or take responsibility after all this time.

Yep, pretty much. You can thank Greg Street for that.