Why are you afraid of RNG?

[judgementofantonidas]

I see alot of posts with ppl saying it's too much RNG, RNG this, RNG that.
RNG is a huge factor of RPGs and i have no problem with it at all, so im just wondering, why are you afraid of RNG?

I mean, take Diablo 2 for example, people are still hunting that perfect rolled item, it adds replayability etc.

Imagine if you run into an instance/raid and get fully geared instantly for example, why would you want to go back there again if you didnt know you could get an upgrade, even if it's a very small chance? Are you just bored of gaming? Bored of the game? Why?

You mistake dislike for fear.
That is why I feel the dictionary could use a good cleaning out.
For instance homophobes are rarely AFRAID of homosexuals. They dislike them.
Same with RNG. I highly doubt anyone is afraid of it. It is merely annoying when RNG plays more strongly against you and causes you to feel you are wasting your time.

[vicour]

Video games should always reward performance first, luck second. Always. To do otherwise makes your game more of a gamble than a test of ability.

This is ideal in a perfect gaming world. However, blizzard long ago started rewarding persistence/addiction first, luck second, and skill third. Persistence = stay subbed, farm relentlessly, kill the same thing over and over until you finally get that "thing". Its the business model intertwined into game play, RNG allows extended subs, more replay, and more extended use out of the same content over time.

While some of this is reasonable, I think most are starting to feel that it is getting excessive. Too many Blizzard games are this way, and if you aren't lucky right away, your kinda screwed in an endless grind for those things you "gotta have".

[TheVaryag]

I see alot of posts with ppl saying it's too much RNG, RNG this, RNG that.
RNG is a huge factor of RPGs and i have no problem with it at all, so im just wondering, why are you afraid of RNG?

I mean, take Diablo 2 for example, people are still hunting that perfect rolled item, it adds replayability etc.

Imagine if you run into an instance/raid and get fully geared instantly for example, why would you want to go back there again if you didnt know you could get an upgrade, even if it's a very small chance? Are you just bored of gaming? Bored of the game? Why?

Let me explain It to you as someone who clearly doesn't understand good replayability and RNG.

There's good RNG and there's bad RNG:

Good RNG Is not tied to gear progression

Bad RNG Is tied to gear progression



Simple enough? Good. If there's RNG attatched to cosmetics, collectables, extra bonuses (That STILL ARENT GEAR) that's okay. I don't play Diablo games but I imagine if I would I'd get sick of that kind of RNG very quickly. Because It's made to keep you playing, especially in Diablo 3 far as I heared. This Is from the perspective of a 13 year long WoW player and my guess Is the people who hate RNG the most don't want their gear progression tied to RNG so much after It's not been the case for so long out of fudging nowhere.

WoW, ever since defacto WoD have gone out the window with things like Justice and Valor points which helped you mitigate the possibility that you got 7/10 armor pieces, but those 3 last pieces aren't dropping despite the last 100 dungeon runs you've just done... In order to mitigate that, you have currency to buy remaining gear pieces you didn't get with RNG which Is the good kind of RNG>

But what WoD, Legion, Battle for Azeroth and future expansions seem to be doing Is throw that out of the window. There's no PROPER gear vendors, no currency to buy things with (ESPECIALLY for PvP, they got rid of Honor and Conquest points (The PvP version of Justice and Valor points) and your pvp gear Is rng as well... and hell, pvp gear is useless. You just go and do PvE world quests and dungeons In order to get the best PvP gear - that Itself Is BAD RNG and I'm completely astounded Blizzard still went with this Implementation despite our protests In Legion Beta.

This will be your common hater of RNG these days and I'm among them, they've added so much RNG ontop of RNG ever since Legion and now pours over Into BfA that It's becoming unacceptable across the board and I'm happy for that people are realizing that Blizz are just trying to milk us and have us keep playing even though It's not enjoyable, rewarding or satisfying at all.

They still, stubbornly cling to Table Missions, Artifact Power (In form of Azerite gear) even though they're the worst systems ever seen on WoW, alongside Legion's legendary system. Apparently the shareholders think It's a good idea, well your fans don't, Blizz.

Artifast Power Is another Illusion of progression, so Is Mythic+ thinking It's a good Idea to run a dungeon twelse trillion times just for the possibility of a +5 ilevel upgrade.... or... they could've done the more PLAYER FRIENDLY CHOICE and leave the system they ALREADY HAD IN PLACE... which Is you go to Dungeon/Raid, get Justice/Valor points and BUY that gear upgrade within like a week or less, instead of grinding for the chance of It upgrading via Titanforged or just drop In general as a new item with more ilevel than you had before.

They KNOW they are doing this scummy thing, at least I hope so. It's just that the fans have no Idea because the casual fan dismisses players like me, cynical long-term players of WoW who have been here for centuries since WoW began, and since they eat It up with blindfolds over their eyes Blizz doesn't care.


So there, reason for RNG being bad and why people complain about It... so I ask, are you bored of good games? Don't want WoW to Improve? Want to be a blind sheep accepting anything Blizz gives you? Why?

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Thats why ML should not be removed obv.

The game even with master loot would still reward players and groups differently for doing the same shit in some cases easier shit. Gem sockets should be crafted able and go back to valor point upgrades, boe raids recipes, and add stat conversation. There are other time sink that can reward players for tanking on a challenge and not taking more control away.

[Hoeth]

My theory is that it's because players have built unhealthily competitive and petty communities to exist within. The real reason for getting worked up over RNG is the fear of falling behind performance-wise. For example, people start feeling that they have the "right" to get "their" legendary, because the other guy got it to and now he's "winning" on the meters only because he has it. And now people are afraid for their jobs, uh I mean their raiding spots of course. It's just community immaturity.

This pretty much.

[Deleted]

It makes receiving rewards very inconsistent and doesn't reward time or effort put into something, since it's random.

[Deleted]

There a no bad items, there are only better items. If you go for the piece of gear with the best stats and get it on 960, it is still a good item for you. Yes, it will be better at 970, but the 960 is still not bad.

So the difference between a 960 item and a 985 item is "not very big" or what? LOL

Doesn't seem like you play the game at a very high level then.

[Just1c3]

I see alot of posts with ppl saying it's too much RNG, RNG this, RNG that.
RNG is a huge factor of RPGs and i have no problem with it at all, so im just wondering, why are you afraid of RNG?

I mean, take Diablo 2 for example, people are still hunting that perfect rolled item, it adds replayability etc.

Imagine if you run into an instance/raid and get fully geared instantly for example, why would you want to go back there again if you didnt know you could get an upgrade, even if it's a very small chance? Are you just bored of gaming? Bored of the game? Why?

Nobody's asking to get fully geared instantly, that's not a fair example. We expect there to be some degree of replayability from the new content that comes out. For example, with Argus, it's really cool that Blizzard sprinkled so many mounts and pets around, that gives a good reason to continue going back there to try and farm things. Sure, some folks may have everything, but not everybody does. You want a reason to actually do the content for awhile.

Here's the problem with RNG. Your performance is pretty dependent on the gear you're wearing. Sure, a really skilled player can still make a good showing even with crap gear, but gear makes a difference. Give me the two BEST players of <insert spec here> in the WORLD, give one of them a full Mythic Argus BiS kit, and give the other one something less, anything less, and there's GONNA be a measurable difference there. That difference is going to widen, the worse that one of their gear gets. Especially since a LOT of power has been rolled away from talents and such. Without all that 1% to crit that some folks like to deride, virtually ALL of your player power comes from the gear that you're wearing. Talk up artifact traits all you want, but that's still a piece of gear. And by now, pretty much everybody has every trait, so there's no difference in power there. I doubt that a couple points in Concordance over somebody else stacks up to THAT big of a difference.

So if you're getting fucked by RNG for too long, you're gonna see a dip in power compared to other people in your raid, unless you're playing a FotM overpowered-to-shit class, and that can start to feel pretty bad. Especially if it's happening due to factors outside of your control, like say, if you're a Warrior and the boss just continues to refuse to drop a Draught of Souls, for instance. Or if you still need a good item level Convergence of Fates (if you're one of the classes that still uses and needs one). Some classes are SUPER dependent on a certain trinket or set bonus and are heavily gimped until they get it. It can make a big difference.

The idea that I always had was something like this. Every boss in a given raid would drop a coin, some kind of currency specific to that raid. At the entrance of that raid, you put a vendor that accepts that raid's currency, and sells EVERY item that drops in that raid. So every week you do that raid, maybe you get lucky and get the thing you want, and you can then spend your coins on some other piece, or you don't get lucky and you buy the item that you need the most. I think that's probably the MOST fair way to offset RNG, while leaving it as a factor. I can't imagine another way, aside from RNG, to incentivize people to participate in the content over and over again, but I do think it's kinda fucked up to leave it to chance to the degree that it currently is. I think there should be SOME system to offset RNG and make it less painful, ESPECIALLY for classes that end up being super dependent on a specific trinket or something (or in BfA, say, a certain chestpiece that happens to have godly Azerite traits). You design the cost of a raid's items to work out in a way that it'd take three or four full clears to buy an item, maybe? I haven't given it a ton of thought, but it's an idea that's been kicking around in my head ever since they removed Badge gear. (which, Badge gear was fine, but it certainly wasn't enough, especially considering how little of it was ever BiS for anyone. it was a nice filler, but sooner or later you ended up relying on not getting fucked by the RNG treadmill just like always)

[Tradu]

If a guild is sidelining players purely due to "bad" legendaries, yeah, that's immaturity plain and simple.

Top end raiding is a team activity, and putting together an effective team is more about long term commitment than flavour of the month/who got the best legendaries. You don't just drop a team member and recruit someone new because they haven't had the best luck with gear. And if this does happen to a top raider, then they absolutely should leave that guild, not because of the bad legendary system but because it's a sign that they're in a shitty guild run by shitty people.

What an absurd thing to say. Guilds going for world/region firsts absolutely benched people based on legendaries. If you have a DH with Anger and one without it at launch, you bring the one with Anger. That's not immaturity, that's picking the player who will get you the best chance to kill a boss. There's a reason a bunch of people in those guilds levelled multiple characters early on to play the one which got luckiest.

- - - Updated - - -

This is ideal in a perfect gaming world. However, blizzard long ago started rewarding persistence/addiction first, luck second, and skill third. Persistence = stay subbed, farm relentlessly, kill the same thing over and over until you finally get that "thing". Its the business model intertwined into game play, RNG allows extended subs, more replay, and more extended use out of the same content over time.

While some of this is reasonable, I think most are starting to feel that it is getting excessive. Too many Blizzard games are this way, and if you aren't lucky right away, your kinda screwed in an endless grind for those things you "gotta have".

Yeah, it absolutely makes sense from a MAU/business perspective. It has gone too far, though.

[Worgoblin]

I love RNG. The uncertainty of dice rolls has always been one of my fav things about RPG's.

[IceMan1763]

If a guild is sidelining players purely due to "bad" legendaries, yeah, that's immaturity plain and simple.

If a competitive guild is NOT sidelining players because they have bad legendaries, they're not a competitive guild.

If competitive guilds are sidelining players because they were unlucky with their legendary rolls (something players predicted since the announcement of the distribution system), that speaks to poor design. Speaking of which, where are legiondaries in BFA??? I'm surprised they wouldn't continue such a successful system in the next expansion.

[The Stormbringer]

I was once in a convenience store with RNGesus and I rushed forward and grabbed the last drink that he was also going for, before he could get it. Now he has it out for me.

[Katchii]

I see alot of posts with ppl saying it's too much RNG, RNG this, RNG that.
RNG is a huge factor of RPGs and i have no problem with it at all, so im just wondering, why are you afraid of RNG?

I mean, take Diablo 2 for example, people are still hunting that perfect rolled item, it adds replayability etc.

Imagine if you run into an instance/raid and get fully geared instantly for example, why would you want to go back there again if you didnt know you could get an upgrade, even if it's a very small chance? Are you just bored of gaming? Bored of the game? Why?

I'm not "afraid" of it, I just don't want it to be the sole avenue of gearing because it severely undermines skill and time invested when any lucky bastard could just get something better than you or that item you wanted forever at any random time.

I don't mind RNG, but it has to to supplemented with a path that ensures you can get gear for just playing the game. Doesn't have to be the same level of gear, just an alternative, viable gearing path that is sufficient for you to progress.

I don't play the game for gear, not specifically, gear is a fantastic incentive but I'm not going to keep doing the same thing over and over and over just for the chance at a piece of gear, or a piece of gear with an additional layer of RNG hoping that it drops warforged with perfect stats. That's not fun to me, at all. I play the game for the experience, the story, cosmetic stuff, for fun...and bashing my head and fingers against an RNG wall for gear is not really any one of those things.

[Ozzyorcborne]

Not afraid. Totally fed up of it. There really is too much RNG in some places.

[Katchii]

If a competitive guild is NOT sidelining players because they have bad legendaries, they're not a competitive guild.

If competitive guilds are sidelining players because they were unlucky with their legendary rolls (something players predicted since the announcement of the distribution system), that speaks to poor design. Speaking of which, where are legiondaries in BFA??? I'm surprised they wouldn't continue such a successful system in the next expansion.

I hope you're kidding, the legendary random drop crap in Legion was awful specifically for the reasons you're talking about. Good, committed players could get sidelined because of bad RNG, that's just stupid, simply because certain specs just weren't viable in those environments without specific legendaries compared to others that had the right set.

[zetitup]

What i gathered so far from this thread is "I don't want to put in work to achive something, i just want things handed to me" :P Don't get me wrong, forcing someone to have a certain legendary is bad game design, but TF isn't really that big of a deal, since several guilds are downing bosses without full TF gear. Imo the TF is what actually brings me back to the raids, i cba to do something if i can't be rewarded or someone can be rewarded, imagine if there was no WF/TF, your raidgroup gets the standard items, now you are done. Sure TF shouldn't interfere with next raids ilvl, but they are aware of it.

EDIT: my point is, there is way less RNG than before, when you could get items with shit stats, Spirit/Str combo etc, the stats are set on every item, they don't vary, imagine if bosses had the chance to drop loot like the once you can get from WQs, like trinkets, main stat + random secondary stat, that would be annoying i get :P

[Deleted]

cuz rng doesnt give very good players a "im better than you are, because i can manage my dps better and have a deeper class understanding/ combat understanding"

rng is only for those who cant be good at a game, but rng makes them good, because they have absurd amounts of proccs or whatever.

[Tradu]

What i gathered so far from this thread is "I don't want to put in work to achive something, i just want things handed to me" :P Don't get me wrong, forcing someone to have a certain legendary is bad game design, but TF isn't really that big of a deal, since several guilds are downing bosses without full TF gear. Imo the TF is what actually brings me back to the raids, i cba to do something if i can't be rewarded or someone can be rewarded, imagine if there was no WF/TF, your raidgroup gets the standard items, now you are done. Sure TF shouldn't interfere with next raids ilvl, but they are aware of it.

Great, although there's no need to "imagine" that. It used to be like that, and it was amazing. That way when a new raid releases, everybody who cleared the previous raid is on equal footing again(more or less).

[Accendor]

So the difference between a 960 item and a 985 item is "not very big" or what? LOL

Doesn't seem like you play the game at a very high level then.

Oh, there is a big difference. The base item is just not bad, that is all I am saying.

[Tradu]

EDIT: my point is, there is way less RNG than before, when you could get items with shit stats, Spirit/Str combo etc, the stats are set on every item, they don't vary, imagine if bosses had the chance to drop loot like the once you can get from WQs, like trinkets, main stat + random secondary stat, that would be annoying i get :P

Fuck no there isn't less RNG. I know Ion keeps claiming that, but it's just a straight up lie. You still need the right item to drop, just like in previous expansions. In addition to that, there's RNG sockets, WF/TF and tertiary stats(2 of which are extremely powerful). The only way you could argue it's less RNG is if you compare it to Vanilla or TBC, which is absurd, because there's 3-4 expansions after that with much better loot systems. Nobody is comparing current loot to Vanilla/TBC other than apparently Blizzard. The comparison is between now and the past few expansions.