Is Sylvanas And The Horde's Portrayal In BfA The Next Shitstorm In WoW?

[Steampunkette]

That's not how Odyn tells it.

Odyn self-aggrandizes. He's an unreliable narrator. You're supposed to read between the lines, which is -why- you get the clues like the author saying things like "Others say it happened differently, but why believe them when Odyn will tell you, himself?"

Going to contest the swimming to shore one there isn't much proof the shape infested orcs were going to surrender but even then it isnt that the allience does bad things it is just the horde are worse.

I think you could push out a storyline with the allience clearly being the villains but so far we haven't seen anything beyond the lightest shade of gray.

There isn't any proof that those orcs -were- Sha infected. And the witness to the crime (Rell Nightwind) stated that he thought they were trying to surrender. But even if they -weren't- surrendering, they were unarmed and helpless because they were swimming. Killing them, there, was a war crime. As in geneva convention war crime.

And I'm not trying to say that the Alliance are "Clearly the Villains" or that they're "Worse than the Horde". I'm saying that they commit crimes and then people ignore those crimes because it doesn't fit their personal narrative of "Alliance Good, Horde Evil"

Still waiting for you to tell me which of the crimes I listed weren't crimes at all.

[Daevelian]

Helya was a sorceress Vrykul who gladly served Odyn in life. He murdered her, raised her as undead, mind-controlled her, and used his mind-control to convince her that she was still serving him of her own free will. Loken comes along and frees her mind from Odyn's control and she turns against him because he's literally abused her for millennia after MURDERING HER when she refused to become a Val'kyr willingly.

"Norse Devil" my ass.

Playing devils advocate for a moment here, but... have you looked at the history of most religious devils? If anything, what you just said supports the idea of her being the norse devil.

[Nutrition]

When? Where?

Southshore for Roger's gilneas for gray.

[Steampunkette]

Playing devils advocate for a moment here, but... have you looked at the history of most religious devils? If anything, what you just said supports the idea of her being the norse devil.

Hel is the Norse Devil.

Helya takes her name/inspiration from that character, but she's meant to be a distaff Sylvanas in this instance. A broken mirror of Arthas/Sylvanas in Odyn/Helya.

[valax]

I'm a simple horde , my warchief gives command and I execute . No question needs to be asked I don't play horde to be a good guy , I play horde to LOOOT AND PILLAGE Bwhahahaha

[Nutrition]

Odyn self-aggrandizes. He's an unreliable narrator. You're supposed to read between the lines, which is -why- you get the clues like the author saying things like "Others say it happened differently, but why believe them when Odyn will tell you, himself?"



There isn't any proof that those orcs -were- Sha infected. And the witness to the crime (Rell Nightwind) stated that he thought they were trying to surrender. But even if they -weren't- surrendering, they were unarmed and helpless because they were swimming. Killing them, there, was a war crime. As in geneva convention war crime.

And I'm not trying to say that the Alliance are "Clearly the Villains" or that they're "Worse than the Horde". I'm saying that they commit crimes and then people ignore those crimes because it doesn't fit their personal narrative of "Alliance Good, Horde Evil"

Still waiting for you to tell me which of the crimes I listed weren't crimes at all.

Are those different orcs then the ones who kidnapped and enslaved the children with demons? I might be mixing the boat ones up with the ones in the outpost.

Well attacking a neutral party harbouring the leader of the enemy faction is somewhat shady it isnt a crime. The others sure. They won't really be noted though due to the greater good though.

[Deleted]

Southshore for Roger's gilneas for gray.

Southshore was Alliance outpost which was destroyed during war time.

[Daevelian]

Hel is the Norse Devil.

Helya takes her name/inspiration from that character, but she's meant to be a distaff Sylvanas in this instance. A broken mirror of Arthas/Sylvanas in Odyn/Helya.

I'm talking about the fact that in almost every religious text from any religion, the devil is more often than not someone who was betrayed by the "god" of said religion.

Helya fits that bill perfectly.

[faithbane]

We got used to terrible writing, but they're terribly writing us now. For the second goddamn time. Horde is evil. It's decided. And Blizzard will never, ever have the balls to make Alliance do something even remotely questionable. It's clear as day by now as well. So what causes the shitstorm? The fact that Blizzard keeps denying this.

It is not only the blatantly bad writing, it is also completely ignoring facts and stories that were told in old warcraft games and wow being ignored.

Somewhere along the line tho whole story of WC3 and Wow lore up to wotlk is forgotten and horde became flat out savege if not evil? + The whole fucking point of orc redemption arc that started in RTS and continued into WoW about Demon blood causing the rage and violence of the orcs, the peaceful shamanistic BC orcs disappeared and savage WoD orcs who without the demon blood, wanted to conquer and kill everything on their way replaced them.

Somehow the 7 ally kingdoms who constantly plotted against and back stabbed each other and never managed to get along for long are 1 peaceful "human kingdom" now, the pinnacle of civilization.. Genn Greymane the racist/selfish xenophobe who on top of all his bullshit, refused to give a dime to help rebuilt Stormwind is somehow a head advisor to king of stormwind? The fuck? and I would understand if his story evolved and he learned his lesson and grew as a character but as someone who played the old games I can't stand Genn being all high horse after everything he has done and never even repented. He is the wow version of Trump, except he was successful in not paying a dime in taxes and building the fucking wall + claiming about his personal military victories while dodging the war.

The whole bullshit with alliance still claiming that horde betrayed them on broken shore, the unprokoved attack of Genn against the horde fleet that was never addressed..

On top of that, there are infinite amount of alliance aggression that is being swept under the rug or being completely ignored.

Like 17 different things Jaina has done. But most importantly, allowing alliance to use Theramore as a base and planning the invasion of Durator/Ogrimmar through her city (the horde quest where you find the plans are actually in the damn game.) then crying when the city is targeted by the horde. Yes the fucking nuke was wrong but Jaina claiming her city was "neutral"and she was so innocent in the horde vs alliance war should have been called out at some fucking point. Not gonna get into whole Dalaran "purge" and abandoning the fucking planet during the legion invasion, now coming back like nothing was wrong, great writing.

For someone who likes immersion and diving into the lore and the story, the writing is devastating because of all the holes, contradictions and hypocrisy.

[Steampunkette]

Are those different orcs then the ones who kidnapped and enslaved the children with demons? I might be mixing the boat ones up with the ones in the outpost.

Well attacking a neutral party harbouring the leader of the enemy faction is somewhat shady it isnt a crime. The others sure. They won't really be noted though due to the greater good though.

.,.. okay. So. Thrall stepped down before he was captured on his way to the Maelstrom by the Alliance. He wasn't the "Leader of the Enemy Faction". He was a civilian.

And the Goblins of Kezan knew fuck-all about him even being there so they weren't Harboring him. They were crammed into their boat trying to find a new home in the wake of Deathwing setting off their volcano and destroying their city.

The Goblins of Kezan, the Bilgewater Cartel, were on their way to land when the Alliance Ship saw them, the captain said "No Witnesses" and attempted to kill the completely unrelated innocent civilians of a Neutral Nation to cover up his crimes.



As to whether the Orcs were involved in the kidnapping of children: It's irrelevant.

Shooting unarmed and helpless people is wrong regardless of what they've done, or not done since you don't even know what crimes they were or weren't involved in. It's immoral to kill a defenseless person.

[Deleted]

Helya was a sorceress Vrykul who gladly served Odyn in life. He murdered her, raised her as undead, mind-controlled her, and used his mind-control to convince her that she was still serving him of her own free will. Loken comes along and frees her mind from Odyn's control and she turns against him because he's literally abused her for millennia after MURDERING HER when she refused to become a Val'kyr willingly.

"Norse Devil" my ass.

But she literally is. Helheim is hell.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helheim

The way you tell your story is incredibly biased. Another way to tell it is that Odyn and Helya are both meant to serve the Titans and they had different ideas on how that best could be achieved. Odyn thought Val'kyr could be very useful, and they are. So when Helya refused to go along with his plan, he forced her. Not a noble thing to do, but one that could be justified when you consider that Odyn's primary goal is to protect Azeroth from the Legion and other evil forces. As revenge Helya then decided to ruin everything and risk the very existence of Azeroth, which she was meant to protect. Odyn isn't a sweet and innocent angel, but sometimes you have to make hard choices, and he was basically created for the purpose of protecting Azeroth and serving the Titans. Helya's just an evil witch.

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I'm talking about the fact that in almost every religious text from any religion, the devil is more often than not someone who was betrayed by the "god" of said religion.

Helya fits that bill perfectly.

Yeah, she's pretty much Lucifer, trying to undo the creation of God.

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Hel is the Norse Devil.

Helya takes her name/inspiration from that character, but she's meant to be a distaff Sylvanas in this instance. A broken mirror of Arthas/Sylvanas in Odyn/Helya.

Lucifer was a fallen angel.

[Unholyground]

I am evil in real life so this aligns perfectly for me!

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Lucifer was a fallen angel.

Lucifer is a myth just like the angels!

[meroko]

Horde isn't evil, Alliance is. It's the same story since the beginning. Something happens, Alliance sees what they want to see, they respond blindly. Horde suffers, Alliance "wins" ...it's a constant dangling carrot for both sides of the story. The sad part is most people went horde because they WANTED to be bad but Blizzard seems to think that both sides have to "see" themselves as the good side.

[Steampunkette]

But she literally is. Helheim is hell.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helheim

The way you tell your story is incredibly biased. Another way to tell it is that Odyn and Helya are both meant to serve the Titans and they had different ideas on how that best could be achieved. Odyn thought Val'kyr could be very useful, and they are. So when Helya refused to go along with his plan, he forced her. Not a noble thing to do, but one that could be justified when you consider that Odyn's primary goal is to protect Azeroth from the Legion and other evil forces. As revenge Helya then decided to ruin everything and risk the very existence of Azeroth, which she was meant to protect. Odyn isn't a sweet and innocent angel, but sometimes you have to make hard choices, and he was basically created for the purpose of protecting Azeroth and serving the Titans. Helya's just an evil witch.

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Yeah, she's pretty much Lucifer, trying to undo the creation of God.

God didn't Murder Lucifer and force him to capitulate to God's demands for thousands of years. But let's not get into real world religion because it's against the Forum Rules.

And no. Odyn didn't create the Val'kyr to protect Azeroth. He created the Val'kyr so that the souls of the Vrykul wouldn't pass into the Shadowlands because what he saw in the Shadowlands scared him. That's his own words as someone who self-aggrandizes constantly in his own narrative. You're twisting his motivation to fit your more "Balanced" narrative.

Objectively, he murdered her to fulfill his personal goal of saving the souls of the Vrykul from the Shadowlands. He could've asked for other people to volunteer for the task, to become the first Val'kyr. Instead he murdered her for his own gains, raised her against her wishes, and compelled her to serve him with direct manipulation of her innermost self.

That's the truth of what happened. Not a "Biased perspective". That's the narrative that was written.

[Charge me Doctor]

*attempting to dismantle the horde when they were weak after the retaking of the undercity from Putress, narrowly stopped by Jaina

I found it so cool that Jaina stopped us from destroying horde in wotlk, but later in mop we had to stop her from destroying horde

[schwank05]

I mean When I started playing back in 05 I picked the Horde because they were the "Bad" guys. I have never had some weird misconception that the Horde was some how the "Good" guys. I love Sylvanas as a character, she is not just the leader of my favorite Race, but she is the Leader of my Favorite Faction. I don't like to be portrayed as the good guys and hate when we #Teamup with the Alliance, I secretly want any Horde Leader or something like that to kill Alliance leaders when they are meeting.

[Charge me Doctor]

- killing civilians at Gallywix's party
- killing the goblin miners in Silithus

Well, you know, they are goblins, who cares about them? You act like killing a goblin is a crime

[Yatagarasu]

Everytime Blizzard releases a new piece of lore for BfA, I notice a bunch of people bitching about it and making fun of what Blizzard views as morally gray. Sylvanas, is the worst offender of this. Possibly the only offender? People are absolutely trashing her character and complaining about her portrayal as comically evil. I rarely find positivity about BfA's lore in general. Usually alot of complaining in WoW equates to a shitstorm. Things like Real ID emails, WoD in general, and flying have lead to intense debates between the community. It seems BfA and Sylvanas/Horde are causing a similar reaction. Same with some of the ruthless actions of the horde. Could this be the start of a new community dividing event? Have we discovered the next flying debate? Shitting on Horde fans and Blizzard writing? I havent seen complaining about lore this bad before. What do you think?

Flying in Argus debate was initially idiotic, forgive my language, people really became weak minded and wanted everything handed to them, they don't want any challenges and that's horrible for an MMO, as a Dark Souls lover I cannot explain how great it is to overcome challenges, but when people whined about "I CANT DO WORLD QUESTS BECAUSE DEMONS ANNOY ME" I die a little inside. About the Blizzard lore, I'd say their lore went downwards after wc3 (it was good during Wotlk since it was a continuation of wc3) until Pandaria(during pandaria you could easily tell how much they loved the project and poured their hearts and souls into it, I loved the MoP lore with the thunder king, sha and rebellion), then again it plummeted harshly with alternate universe shenanigans in WoD. Legion was literally "use everything you can to bring back players: we heard you love BC? Here you go. You love Illidan and Guldan? Here you go. You love Ashbringer? Here you go. And even then Legion was a good expansion. BFA though seems completely out of context for now, we still don't know what is the reason behind burning of Teldrasil, but so far Sylvanas does act like an agressor and evil being (as she should in my opinion, she is a forsaken ffs). Why are people annoyed? My guess is how Blizzard employees do not know their own lore, Hazzikostas said everything is morally grey when it definately is not, when sylvanas was qustioned by fans they posted a BLUEPOST! defending her motives and saying "Oh hey, Anduin is not an angel too, hey, he killed some orcs during the siege of Undercity!". Why was that necessary you ask me? Exactly, it seems like Blizzard are trying too hard to convince players that there are not righs or wrongs there, but their lore shows otherwise. How about such characters like Wrathion? Such an amazing character was completely cut and wasted, he was the one that warned us about Burning Legion and helped Garrosh escape prison to unite orc clans to fight demons. Where is he now? Tirion Fordring, the man wielding legendary ashbringer, the man defeated Lich King himself was annihilated by a simple dreadlord that our character kills in mere seconds for the sake of giving the weapon to us. Thrall being a complete failure as a warchief, horrible mentor to Garrosh and a cheater in sacred MakGorah (Still considered a hero of the horde and loved by many!). I'm not even starting on Yrel being an uber religios zealot, it's literally 180 degrees from her actual character they tried to develop in WoD, it makes no sense! Lightbound Garrosh is a complete joke, why would they bring that poor fella again as a bad guy? Never thought we would see Paladin orcs in WoW. I'm not even starting on Magatha being a Shaman follower in Legion, it's one of the most horrible decisions made by people who decided followers. So on and so forth, many plot holes, characters who dissapear, decisions that make no sense and do not fit their own characters - that is the problen of WoW lore at the moment in my opinion. So yes, I disagree that current complains are a shitstorm, some of them are very adequate.

[Charge me Doctor]

I'll be honest, I never liked Sylvanas and never will. However, when it came to Garrosh, the overall conviction that he was a "good" leader that simply went wrong made me really loathe him for some reason, this pretentious bullshit about his "hOnOr" and shit when the guy has always been kind of rotten from the beginning; with Sylvanas, however, she is being labeled so savagely, from the very beginning, as the supposed evilest Warchief of all times that it's making me kinda root for her. I really, really want to see that depressed bitch live through all of the BfA shit and enjoy the comedy.

Sylvanas was OK'ish character arc in WC3, but in wow it's just a mess, blizzard should just end her at the end of wotlk concluding her revenge arc.

I liked early Garrosh character and his honourable horde, but then he tapped into horde-supremacy too hard and it kinda crumbled apart

[Ton00]

I dont see the problem tbh if there making her evil so what?