Sylvanas vs. Deathlord

[Obelisk Kai]

Sylvanas will win. Why?

If I was flippant I'd say she has something the Deathlord doesn't, with or without Apocalypse, and that's plot armor.

Or I could say that if Sylvanas ever WAS destined to be defeated by the Deathlord, the Deathlord would need at least nine of their friends to accomplish it. Which means Sylvanas would beat them one on one.

But the honest truth is that Sylvanas is extremely skilled, clever and manipulative. She would win because no matter how good the Death Knight thinks they are, Sylvanas would be better.

Those were Blood Elves. As long as there's Celtic inspired Warcraft 2 High Elves around. I don't see much of problem with that.

There is no such thing as celtic inspired warcraft 2 high elves. You made that up.

High Elves share the exact same culture as Blood Elves and after they betrayed their people the few High Elves aligned with the Alliance didn't sit around a campfire going 'now that we are with the Alliance, we need to completely invent a brand new culture for ourselves for the sake of pretending to be different'. That's not how culture works.

If ANY group is 'celtic' inspired...and I say this as an actual Celt by the way, one hundred percent Irish and actually living in Ireland...it's the Dwarves.

What you mean by 'celtic' is to turn them into wood elves. Sorry, Night Elves already have that covered.

If High Elves are adopting any culture, it's Humans.

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Deathlord... one expansion after Sylvanas raid

Ha, I think this is probably the truth.

[Mehrunes]

Care to explain how Apocalypse overpowered a fully powered guardian who DIDN'T have her guard down? HMMMM?????

Yeah, I'm sure Aegwynn, who was explicitly described to have underestimated the Apocalypse, kept her guard as high as humanly possible. Great point there. Shame it was already made in this thread and despite being contested in the same way no explanation was given. HMMMMM indeed.

You love to point out the fact that Medivh was killed by a normal sword but I haven't seen you acknowledge the fact that he completely lowered his defenses before he was killed. You're a cherry-picker. Apocalypse empowered Deathlord will slaughter Sylvanas. Quit with your hyperbole.

Given how I already acknowledged it by pointing the above earlier on in the thread you're lying out of your ass. And engaging in the actual cherry-picking here.

"BuT shE CaN BRaKEE BoNeSs WiThH HeRr vVoiCeE!!11!!"

And apocalypse has singe handily toppled entire civilizations.

AnD aPoCaLyPsE hAs SiNlE HaNdEdLy ToPpLeD eNtIrE cIvIlIzAtIoNs. See, I can copy shit memes and pretend they are an argument too.

The thing is, it did so when wielded by other individuals. The Deathlord alone couldn't topple even one country in shambles like Suramar. Just like the Netherlord didn't single-handedly drain so much energy they wounded Azeroth and created a huge ley line nexus. Or how the Shaman Class Order Hall leader didn't create a new Elemental Plane to trap the demons in.

Also, good luck using Apocalypse with broken bones. I'm sure it will work out great. It's not like it was also already an argument made in the thread so far with no tangible counterargument other than "it won't work on Deathlord because reasons".

I don't even know why I'm arguing over this. Sylvanas white-knights will blindly defend her mary-sue character until the bitter end. What's next? You're gonna tell us how Sylvanas could 1v1 Guardian Aegwynn?

/popcorn

Yet you're basically making the argument that Deathlord could 1v1 Aegwynn. When they couldn't even solo even the most inconsequential raid boss of the expansion.

I'm sorry why are we talking about in-game figures and numbers here in a completely hypothetical scenario that'd take place outside of the setting? That's the setting I wanted to lay down here if that wasn't 100% to you people. I mean if we're gonna talk numbers the DK has 6m hp Sylvanas has 6b omgwtfroflstomp.

In-game figures and numbers were only tangentially related to the point that you were wrong about those being the same spell. They were not. People managed to survive the HoR spell all the way back in WotLK. The spell in Tirion's Gambit cannot be survived.

People gonna grasp at any straw they can man, especially when their queen is involved.

See above. Your flailing about grasping straws is devoid of value, as per usual.

People are going to have settle on a standard if they want to truly debate this - either using lore-based capabilities and/or demonstrated abilities in the narrative or relying on the game mechanics and abilities with their accompanying statistics (adjusting for levels and so forth). Going back and forth between lore and gameplay related comparisons just makes it more difficult to establish power levels.

That is why these vs. threads always boil down to personal opinions - there's very little objective or empirical data to draw on to arrive at an objective conclusion.

If you're referring to my point about Lich King's abilities in HoR and Tirion's Gambit (since that's the game-related tangent that appeared on this page before you made this post), the in-game effects were only used to prove that they weren't the same abilities. The HoR one dealing X in-game damage to in-game healthpool wasn't really the point.

[mario710]

lmao this guy is salty asf. Deathlord with Apocalypse stomps.


/thread

[Verdugo]

lmao this guy is salty asf. Deathlord with Apocalypse stomps.


/thread

lmao this guy is salty asf. Deathlord with Apocalypse sucks.

/thread

[Mehrunes]

Uhm... yeah he does kill everyone still, if he gets to you. Do I have to tell you what happens when you finish the dungeon? Sylvanas is getting strangulated and was probably going to be destroyed easily. Without help, she would have die like an ant.

He doesn't. He only used a different ability that dealt a lot of damage, but was still survivable even back in WotLK. Sylvanas simply despawned together with the Lich King afterwards (even if someone did survive it). So no, he did not use his ability that actually cannot be survived, even to this day. So, by your totally not faulty logic, Sylvanas is immune to that.

And what happens when you finish the dungeon is irrelevant to that conclusion stemming from your that logic. Because I made no claim the Lich King couldn't kill Sylvanas in general. I only said that following your logic, Sylvanas is immune to his strongest ability. That says nothing about her being able to survive his other attacks.

Also, by that logic even someone like goddamn Valeera Sanguinar is immune to her bone breaking too.Because as Jaina's new comic showed, she was present in the final Horde vs Alliance confrontation during the Battle for the Undercity. Even though when Sylvanas first used that it had Arthas (the Death Knight) worried. Same goes for a bunch of unnamed Worgen in Silverpine. Speaking of Silverpine, given how the Forsaken didn't use the Blight in every fight, damn, look at all those people immune to the Blight. Acid, how does it work? Apparently it works by melting only weak people.

Likewise, since Jaina was present in the aforementioned Battle for the Undercity, too, yet Sylvanas did not try to silence her, Jaina is apparently immune to her silencing. All the way back in WotLK. Even though Tides of War showed that when it comes to combat she was not exactly spectacular (despite the book being written by a writer that more than likes her) even at the end of Cata, while Sylvanas silenced a guy that had Sunwell's powers all to himself a few years before that skirmish in Undercity.

And Varian apparently became immune to teleportation (apparently it's a thing now) given that the master teleporter Jaina did not teleport him out during the Broken Shore.

What point? She lost, Genn got what he wanted while Sylvanas was tightening her fist. Why? Because she lost and she knew that. Why it's so hard to see that? Blizzard even did a close-up to her fist.

Except you're now arguing about a different thing than you did in the part of your post I described as you missing the point. Is you missing your own previous point supposed to be some roundabout way to prove you did not miss my point by confusing the shit out of me? It's not really working.

Because, compared to Sylvanas, he knew that he has other, more important things to do, like lead Alliance army.
Of course I was joking that he could finish her off, he wa greatly wounded, but neither could she him... and if she could, but she didn't then it shows how bad tactician and idiot she is.
But I'm trying to step in the middle ground here - she didn't attack him because they both would probably kill each other.

Yeah, a half-dead, limping Genn that was about to lose consciousness, was knocked out of his Worgen form, was unable to even scratch Sylvanas when hitting right in the face (despite being able to kill Felguards with his bare hands as per the Broken Shore), would totally kill Sylvanas, who at no point in the fight was particularly serious.

Well, maybe. I could agree here. It wasn't totally random, but it wasn't also totally expected.

If there was only that one attack against Light's Hope when the Death Knights broke free, yeah, maybe not enough to establish a pattern. But Light's Hope survived even more Scourge attacks before the one at the start of WotLK. For the same reasons. Darion himself witnessed that one time before WotLK, when he was still alive. So Darion had two first-hand experiences of why attacking Light's Hope as an undead is a piss-poor idea, while the Death Knights in general should have been aware of the previous attacks failing too, since they have Scourge history books scattered around their base of operation.

[Aucald]

If you're referring to my point about Lich King's abilities in HoR and Tirion's Gambit (since that's the game-related tangent that appeared on this page before you made this post), the in-game effects were only used to prove that they weren't the same abilities. The HoR one dealing X in-game damage to in-game healthpool wasn't really the point.

Wasn't about anyone specifically - even I've gone back and forth using lore and game mechanics to justify points here and there. I think we need to settle on a standard, though, because using both platforms is creating more inconsistency than it is clear answers.

[derpkitteh]

to those of you talking gameplay vs. lore limitations for sylvanas

sylvanas being a special character doesn't have gameplay limitations in the game, so she's displayed in game as powerful as she is in lore. the player character is NOT and cannot be, due to pvp and raiding.

so you cannot say "if the pc is stronger in lore vs. the game, sylvanas must be too" because that's just not how it works.

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If there was only that one attack against Light's Hope when the Death Knights broke free, yeah, maybe not enough to establish a pattern. But Light's Hope survived even more Scourge attacks before the one at the start of WotLK. For the same reasons. Darion himself witnessed that one time before WotLK, when he was still alive. So Darion had two first-hand experiences of why attacking Light's Hope as an undead is a piss-poor idea, while the Death Knights in general should have been aware of the previous attacks failing too, since they have Scourge history books scattered around their base of operation.

you're acting like the death knights had trouble with their assault on light's hope in legion.

they didn't. this was a massacre, the paladins didn't stand a chance and the death knights were trying to avoid killing too many of them. none of the leading paladins stood even a remote chance against the three horsemen, and liadrin was swatted like a gnat by the deathlord. it took a literal act of god, aka deus ex machina, to expel the ebonblade.

[kaelix1]

Didn't keep up to much with the lore, but if what some people here said its true ( aka the deathlord is stronger then LK Arthas, which i personally don't believe) then Sylvanna chance of winning this in my eyes is ZERO, Arthas in WOTLK reach at least demi-god status which is far above Sylvanna in my eye, is she strong? yes, without a doubt but still bellow Arthas even at this point

[Friendlyimmolation]

to those of you talking gameplay vs. lore limitations for sylvanas

sylvanas being a special character doesn't have gameplay limitations in the game, so she's displayed in game as powerful as she is in lore. the player character is NOT and cannot be, due to pvp and raiding.

so you cannot say "if the pc is stronger in lore vs. the game, sylvanas must be too" because that's just not how it works.

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you're acting like the death knights had trouble with their assault on light's hope in legion.

they didn't. this was a massacre, the paladins didn't stand a chance and the death knights were trying to avoid killing too many of them. none of the leading paladins stood even a remote chance against the three horsemen, and liadrin was swatted like a gnat by the deathlord. it took a literal act of god, aka deus ex machina, to expel the ebonblade.

Uh most of the paladins were gone, a cowards attack while the paladins were helping the priest order hall, and Liadrin still delayed the deathknights long enough for the light to send the Dk’s running with their tails between their legs.

[derpkitteh]

Uh most of the paladins were gone, a cowards attack while the paladins were helping the priest order hall, and Liadrin still delayed the deathknights long enough for the light to send the Dk’s running with their tails between their legs.

it was a literal act of god to remove them. nothing on the fucking planet would be able to survive that, of course they had to leave.

liadrin didn't delay. when the light saw liadrin fail, it intervened.

[Mehrunes]

you're acting like the death knights had trouble with their assault on light's hope in legion.

they didn't. this was a massacre, the paladins didn't stand a chance and the death knights were trying to avoid killing too many of them. none of the leading paladins stood even a remote chance against the three horsemen, and liadrin was swatted like a gnat by the deathlord. it took a literal act of god, aka deus ex machina, to expel the ebonblade.

Death Knights had little trouble with the stable-hands and whatever other insignificant twerp they faced until Liadrin when the Silver Hand was away bailing the Conclave out? Who'd have thunk. And the moment Liadrin got to remotely low HP, the same Light protection that saved Light's hope every other time protected it now as well.

Also, that it was a deus ex machina was irrelevant to the point. The point was that they should have been aware of Light's Hope having deus ex machina defense system because it defended Light's Hope from Scourge on multiple occasions. Even when Scourge outnumbered the Paladins 33.3 to 1. Including on occasions the Death Knights of Acherus personally participated in. Yet they walked into it like morons, as if the Light's protection went on vacation.

[Friendlyimmolation]

it was a literal act of god to remove them. nothing on the fucking planet would be able to survive that, of course they had to leave.

liadrin didn't delay. when the light saw liadrin fail, it intervened.

You would have thought hey would have learned their lesson after the first time, but apperantly not. But they managed to make everyone hate them more, I’ll hand that to them.

[derpkitteh]

Death Knights had little trouble with the stable-hands and whatever other insignificant twerp they faced until Liadrin when the Silver Hand was away bailing the Conclave out? Who'd have thunk. And the moment Liadrin got to remotely low HP, the same Light protection that saved Light's hope every other time protected it now as well.

that explosion of light has never happened before. the ground has glowed in consecration, strengthening the paladins and weakening the undead upon it, but never has the light itself actually exploded out in an actual intervention until now.

the usual tricks didn't work, so it had to step in itself. the death knights were clearly just objectively stronger this time.

i remember the quest line just fine, i know what we were fighting. it was silverhand knights, highguards, and liadrin. also, the brotherhood of the light, with leonid, the mage, and the edgy warrior. maxwell tyrosus was cucked hard by nazgrim as the deathlord wiggle-waggled their dick right through the door with no issues.

[Mehrunes]

that explosion of light has never happened before. the ground has glowed in consecration, strengthening the paladins and weakening the undead upon it, but never has the light itself actually exploded out in an actual intervention until now.

Except for the battle of Light's Hope Chapel in which Darion sacrificed his life. On a much, much greater scale.

[derpkitteh]

Except for the battle of Light's Hope Chapel in which Darion sacrificed his life. On a much, much greater scale.

the death knights actually took precautions and stopped that similar type of event. that was thousands of the spirits of paladins rising up, not the light itself exploding.

this was the force known as the light directly intervening on behalf of its worshipers. this wasn't spirits or any of that, this was a gigantic explosion of the light, a literal deus ex machina.

but at any rate, like i said before, the deathlord in legion is just shown doing more impressive things than sylvanas ever has. our power resurrects a frostwyrm so strong that it can decimate armies of demons, we resurrect one of the strongest dead red dragons to ever live, and we do canonically solo much of the red dragonflight. just killing a drake is a monumental task in lore.

amped by apocalypse, the deathlord is too much for sylvanas and many other characters, probably a lot of the other player characters as well. like i'm not jacking off my character just because i play death knight. i play every single class, and i'm not even particularly fond of death knight in legion, and especially don't like playing unholy. but going on feats and canon events of apocalypse, there's no way she wins in the end.

now in bfa, even without a apocalypse, the deathlord has clearly taken some of its power, as represented by the apocalypse ability. so even without apocalypse, they're still monstrously powerful. idk if they beat sylvanas without it, it's much closer i think. but given that death knights at their base are the strongest form of undead, i'd give them the edge. sylvanas is an exceptional banshee, the deathlord is an exceptional death knight. when you start at a higher tier, you have great heights more easily accessible to you.

[Verdugo]

but at any rate, like i said before, the deathlord in legion is just shown doing more impressive things than sylvanas ever has. our power resurrects a frostwyrm so strong that it can decimate armies of demons, we resurrect one of the strongest dead red dragons to ever live, and we do canonically solo much of the red dragonflight. just killing a drake is a monumental task in lore.

And yet they routinely fall into traps or get captured. He may have overhyped artifact at his disposal, but they are still a human(oid), they are not invincible gods.

[mario710]

No point in arguing with these morons. Grasping at straws to defend a plot protected mary sue. Deathlord with apocalypse stomps.

Hell, Deathlord WITHOUT apocalypse curb stomps as well.

/rubs salt in wounds

/thread

Infracted.

[Verdugo]

No point in arguing with these morons. Grasping at straws to defend a plot protected mary sue. Deathlord with apocalypse stomps.

Hell, Deathlord WITHOUT apocalypse curb stomps as well.

/rubs salt in wounds

/thread

Can you give us some actual argument instead of your salty rants?

[derpkitteh]

And yet they routinely fall into traps or get captured. He may have overhyped artifact at his disposal, but they are still a human(oid), they are not invincible gods.

neither is sylvanas.

sylvanas has fallen before, had to retreat multiple times. so she knows when to dip when she has to, that doesn't really have any bearing on the fight proposed by the op. this is a one on one fight to the death, and sylvanas doesn't have the personal power to pull this off with apocalypse in the mix.

[Verdugo]

neither is sylvanas.

sylvanas has fallen before, had to retreat multiple times. so she knows when to dip when she has to, that doesn't really have any bearing on the fight proposed by the op. this is a one on one fight to the death, and sylvanas doesn't have the personal power to pull this off with apocalypse in the mix.

All she needs to do is shoot Deathlord in the head. And she has plenty of ways to make that easy.