Donations Help Bail Out Oregon Mom Charged With Manslaughter After 1-Year-Old Dies

[Raelbo]

i dunno, i have 2 kids. things can happen, but i've never once "forgotten" or "not known" my kids were in the car with me. one thing is, they're loud ass little girls.

second thing is I PAY THE FUCK ATTENTION.

I am also a parent with 2 kids, and, like you, I never had this happen to me when they were small. But I am not arrogant enough to think that is entirely down to my own awesomeness.

Like it or not, some parents just get unlucky. Through no fault of their own, they make a genuine critical error that results in the death of a child. It happens with cars in driveways, it happens with swimming pools, it happens with pets etc etc. There are hundreds of ways in which a small child can die accidentally and while most of us are pretty vigilant about these things most of the time, there is always the possibility that, in spite of our best efforts and intentions, we can make a terrible mistake.

It's not about paying attention, it's about the fact that we are not infallible. We are susceptible to being distracted. And when you have a confluence of random things happening in just the wrong combination, tragedy can result. That is not negligence, it's not criminal, it's shit fucking luck. Be thankful it never happened to you, and pray it never happens to anyone you care about.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

I am also a parent with 2 kids, and, like you, I never had this happen to me when they were small. But I am not arrogant enough to think that is entirely down to my own awesomeness.

Like it or not, some parents just get unlucky. Through no fault of their own, they make a genuine critical error that results in the death of a child. It happens with cars in driveways, it happens with swimming pools, it happens with pets etc etc. There are hundreds of ways in which a small child can die accidentally and while most of us are pretty vigilant about these things most of the time, there is always the possibility that, in spite of our best efforts and intentions, we can make a terrible mistake.

It's not about paying attention, it's about the fact that we are not infallible. We are susceptible to being distracted. And when you have a confluence of random things happening in just the wrong combination, tragedy can result. That is not negligence, it's not criminal, it's shit fucking luck. Be thankful it never happened to you, and pray it never happens to anyone you care about.

i agree. when i said pay the fuck attention it was directed towards just the vehicle overheating deaths. you are right, none of us are perfect, but its a 6'x10' box that you're sitting it, with a rear view mirror.

the pool deaths can happen in an instant, kid goes under, accidentally inhales a big gulp of water, and that's it.

i honestly wonder if it's parents paying more attention to their phone or whatever else. i think we try to do so much, that we lose track of the basics.

unclutter yo life peeps!

[Lochton]

How so? She forgot her child was there. It wasn't a conscious decision on her part

Parental responsibility is a thing, how do you forget you have a child? Sorry, never in my life forgot my own child. I didn't say it was a conscious decision, hence the negligence part.

Uh, what exactly are you talking about? She went to work. She forgot she had the child in the car. It was not a choice.

Ah, so, she ranked work before the child. Parental responsibility is a thing, how do you forget you have a child? Sorry, never in my life forgot my own child. She put the child in the car, no?

[Adam Jensen]

I'm not going to justify what she did, nor am I going to say she doesn't deserve to be punished, but I am going to join the chorus of people who are lambasting the OP for calling this woman a "monster."

She made a horrible mistake, a tragic mistake. Now she's going to suffer from that the rest of her life, living with the guilt that her own negligence killed her daughter. I think there's room for a little empathy here.

[Levelfive]

Parental responsibility is a thing, how do you forget you have a child? Sorry, never in my life forgot my own child. I didn't say it was a conscious decision, hence the negligence part.

Ah, so, she ranked work before the child. Parental responsibility is a thing, how do you forget you have a child? Sorry, never in my life forgot my own child. She put the child in the car, no?

I don't think she forgot she had a child--she thought her child was at daycare--or ranked anything before the child: do you think if someone had said, or she had realized, "Your child is in the car," she would have said, "Well getting to work is more important to me"? I think people's refusal to acknowledge the way routine or autopilot can override the brain are engaging in magical thinking to protect themselves from the notion that it could ever happen to them. She probably thought it could never happen to her, too.

[Dendrek]

It disgusts me that people would call this woman a monster.

Willful ignorance on your part does not constitute willful ignorance on her part. She made a mistake. There is almost zero chance it was intentional.

"But it's a kid!" you shout, emotionally, like an idiot. Yes, which is what makes this sad. But it doesn't change the fact she's human. Ever walk into a room and forget why you did? Ever focus really hard on remembering something but it just won't come to you?

"But it's a kid!" you continue to shout, still like an idiot. Doesn't change reality. You cannot force yourself to overcome your limitations through sheer will alone. Mistakes happen. Statistically, they don't have fatal consequences. But for a very few unlucky people, they do.

Punishing her more than she is already suffering on her own is the monstrous thing to do here.

[Tikaru]

I don't think she forgot she had a child--she thought her child was at daycare--or ranked anything before the child: do you think if someone had said, or she had realized, "Your child is in the car," she would have said, "Well getting to work is more important to me"? I think people's refusal to acknowledge the way routine or autopilot can override the brain are engaging in magical thinking to protect themselves from the notion that it could ever happen to them. She probably thought it could never happen to her, too.

The kid did not sneak into the car, the woman put the kid in there. I'm not buying the "autopilot" bullshit. She's a horrible person and I hope she serves prison time for killing her child.

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It disgusts me that people would call this woman a monster.

Willful ignorance on your part does not constitute willful ignorance on her part. She made a mistake. There is almost zero chance it was intentional.

"But it's a kid!" you shout, emotionally, like an idiot. Yes, which is what makes this sad. But it doesn't change the fact she's human. Ever walk into a room and forget why you did? Ever focus really hard on remembering something but it just won't come to you?

"But it's a kid!" you continue to shout, still like an idiot. Doesn't change reality. You cannot force yourself to overcome your limitations through sheer will alone. Mistakes happen. Statistically, they don't have fatal consequences. But for a very few unlucky people, they do.

Punishing her more than she is already suffering on her own is the monstrous thing to do here.

Is that how the law works now? If you feel bad enough about something, you don't need to serve time?

[Renedric]

I feel for her. However she still needs to face consequences for her neglect. People shouldn't have donated because that's an act that implies she wasn't at any fault. However I feel her punishment should be light considering her circumstances and the fact she has to live with the guilt. Her career and relationship is probably ruined too. Sucks.

[Wezmon]

I think those saying jail her need to think what the jail system is for. It has 4 main uses: punishment and deterrence, rehab and incapacitate.

Now in this case 3 of those don't apply.

You don't "not leave kid in car" as you fear jail (deterrence)

You aren't going to prison to learn not to leave future children in car (rehab)

You aren't being kept in jail in case you go on a "leaving child in car" spree (incapacition)

So that only leaves punishment. Now you could argue this case warrants it, but if you think a woman who tried for 15 years to have a child only to kill her through her own negligence is't being punished every waking (and probably non waking) moment, I don't see what putting her in a cell for a few years is going to do (other than tie up space and cost money).

[Raelbo]

Parental responsibility is a thing, how do you forget you have a child?

She didn't forget she had a child. She forgot her child was in her car.

Sorry, never in my life forgot my own child.

Yeah I get it. You're a superhero, so clearly this could never happen to you...

Seriously though, speak to a grief counsellor some time about grieving parents who have lost children to tragic accidents. The only difference between those parents and you is that they got extremely unlucky with RNG. Don't pat yourself on the back just because you didn't

I didn't say it was a conscious decision, hence the negligence part.

That is not negligence. Negligence means failing to do something that you know you should have done. If she was genuinely unaware that her child was in the car, if in her mind, her child was at daycare, then there was no reason for her to check her back seat.

Here's a question for you: Do you check the backseat of your car every time you leave your vehicle, in case there is a child back there? If the answer is no (and I'll be honest, I know no one who does this) then you cannot reasonable call it negligence. The issue here is that it is almost unfathomable that we can just forget that our child is in the backseat of the car. Hence it's not something we build into our routine to check for. But it can happen.

Ah, so, she ranked work before the child. Parental responsibility is a thing, how do you forget you have a child? Sorry, never in my life forgot my own child. She put the child in the car, no?

You're just not getting it.....Ok, fair enough, you're just uninformed, that's not a crime. It never happened to you, and for some reason you seem to lack the ability to imagine how it could. So educate yourself. Use google, there are more than enough articles that will provide the enlightenment you are lacking. Here's one:

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ho...ildren-n777076

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It disgusts me that people would call this woman a monster.

Willful ignorance on your part does not constitute willful ignorance on her part. She made a mistake. There is almost zero chance it was intentional.

"But it's a kid!" you shout, emotionally, like an idiot. Yes, which is what makes this sad. But it doesn't change the fact she's human. Ever walk into a room and forget why you did? Ever focus really hard on remembering something but it just won't come to you?

"But it's a kid!" you continue to shout, still like an idiot. Doesn't change reality. You cannot force yourself to overcome your limitations through sheer will alone. Mistakes happen. Statistically, they don't have fatal consequences. But for a very few unlucky people, they do.

Punishing her more than she is already suffering on her own is the monstrous thing to do here.

Very well put

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I feel for her. However she still needs to face consequences for her neglect.

Firstly, she's already facing enough consequences. Secondly, it's not neglect. Neglect is the result of a conscious decision to ignore something, not simply forgetting something

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The kid did not sneak into the car, the woman put the kid in there. I'm not buying the "autopilot" bullshit.

Are you denying it because you believe it cannot happen, or because you believe it's a ruse to cover her true intention to kill her child?

Is that how the law works now? If you feel bad enough about something, you don't need to serve time?

No, what he is saying is that unless you commit a crime, you don't need to serve time. So what this really boils down to is whether or not she was aware that her child was in the car when she left it.

[Themius]

Parental responsibility is a thing, how do you forget you have a child? Sorry, never in my life forgot my own child. I didn't say it was a conscious decision, hence the negligence part.


Ah, so, she ranked work before the child. Parental responsibility is a thing, how do you forget you have a child? Sorry, never in my life forgot my own child. She put the child in the car, no?

It's not negligence, the issue is how human brains work and create memories especially when things are routine. If the routine is broken the brain can mask what's happening and make you think things are going to routine.

One investigations found that the majority of child deaths had one thing in common, a break in the typical routine involving the child and a child that was quiet leading to false memories being created and the parent forgetting they had the child.

I mean at this point this part is just proven so I don't see why we are arguing about it.

[Levelfive]

The kid did not sneak into the car, the woman put the kid in there. I'm not buying the "autopilot" bullshit. She's a horrible person and I hope she serves prison time for killing her child.

Me: "I think people's refusal to acknowledge the way routine or autopilot can override the brain are engaging in magical thinking to protect themselves from the notion that it could ever happen to them."

You: "I'm not buying the autopilot bullshit." Like I said, I'm sure you've convinced yourself it could never happen to you...just like pretty much all the people it happened to.

[Tikaru]

Are you denying it because you believe it cannot happen, or because you believe it's a ruse to cover her true intention to kill her child?



No, what he is saying is that unless you commit a crime, you don't need to serve time. So what this really boils down to is whether or not she was aware that her child was in the car when she left it.

I'm not saying it was intentional, but it was absolutely negligent, which is why she's (rightfully so) being charged with second-degree manslaughter.

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/163.125

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Me: "I think people's refusal to acknowledge the way routine or autopilot can override the brain are engaging in magical thinking to protect themselves from the notion that it could ever happen to them."

You: "I'm not buying the autopilot bullshit." Like I said, I'm sure you've convinced yourself it could never happen to you...just like pretty much all the people it happened to.

"Your honor, sure I hit some kids in the middle of the crosswalk, but I was on auto-pilot so I shouldn't be punished."

[Socialhealer]

Well, she was willing to disregard her child's safety. I know she's lost her child and that is sad for the child more as the mother picked negligence. She took her purchase over her child's life. She left the child behind by choice. She is the reason for its death, negligence is not an excuse.

/epicparentfacepalm

choice? This word doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Levelfive]

"Your honor, sure I hit some kids in the middle of the crosswalk, but I was on auto-pilot so I shouldn't be punished."

I'll take your straw manning as a concession that you have no argument but need to keep telling yourself it will never happen to you. By the way, there are devices on the market to prevent these tragedies, but only parents with the capacity to realize it could happen to them would take those kinds of steps.

[Tikaru]

I'll take your straw manning as a concession that you have no argument but need to keep telling yourself it will never happen to you. By the way, there are devices on the market to prevent these tragedies, but only parents with the capacity to realize it could happen to them would take those kinds of steps.

It's such a ridiculous "defense", how can I not mock it?

[Drusin]

then there was no reason for her to check her back seat.

Am I the only one in this thread that checks the backseat of their car for serial killers?

[cuafpr]

charge for neglect but a waste of prison space / resources to lock up...

[Levelfive]

It's such a ridiculous "defense", how can I not mock it?

I'm not invested in whether you mock it or how you lie to yourself. Your kids would be better off if you didn't, though.

[Raelbo]

I'm not saying it was intentional, but it was absolutely negligent,

It wasn't negligent. Negligence is about a failure to exercise proper care, not about an honest (even if terrible) mistake. Negligence is the result of a choice, not chance.

Also you completely dodged my question. So I'll assume you meant that you don't believe that it is possible to forget that your child is in the car. And while I don't expect everyone to be informed, at this stage of the debate, if you still don't accept that this is possible, then you're being wilfully ignorant.

which is why she's (rightfully so) being charged with second-degree manslaughter

A child died. It would be negligent of law enforcement to not apply due diligence in investigating what happened and test whether this was intentional or not. That doesn't mean she is guilty of second-degree manslaughter. That may need to be tested in a court of law (depending on what the evidence says).

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/163.125

If she is telling the truth then I don't see how she would be guilty. If she is lying, which would mean that she knew her daughter was in the car, then yes, she's absolutely guilty. But I must say, the more I read about this story, the more it seems to me that this is a case of horrendously overzealous law enforcement official who are more interested in retribution than in justice.

"Your honor, sure I hit some kids in the middle of the crosswalk, but I was on auto-pilot so I shouldn't be punished."

If you're driving and obeying every law of the road and something distracts you momentarily resulting in an accident, that should never be a criminal offence. But nice try at using hyperbole and emotive language to deflect.

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It's such a ridiculous "defense", how can I not mock it?

By that logic we should be mocking your entire argument....