THis is just getting insulting: Ret mobility.

[Charge me Doctor]

Damage is overtuned in beta pvp. Not only for ret. Most likely they will reduced player damage overall and after that they'll nerf ret healing heavily.

I've seen a 120k hit by the frostwyrm on pvp realm. Nasty shit. I don't think that rets damage is that much overtuned, it's quite manageable, but if you fuck up or ret plays good he may set you up for a 6 seconds kill

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I did a BG on Beta the other day and there was 6 Ret in it.

Sure there are a few that are over tuned but I'm getting WotLK Ret flashbacks.

It's nowhere close to wotlk rets, nightmares of bubblewinged blood elf running towards you... 5-8k crits against my mage... no more

[Kalisandra]

It's nowhere close to wotlk rets, nightmares of bubblewinged blood elf running towards you... 5-8k crits against my mage... no more

Bubblewings are from the pre-patch - they put wings on Forbearance pretty quickly if you recall, and changed bubble from "half attack damage" (or was it double swing time?) to "half damage out". Because removing the problem and nerfing it at the same time has always been Blizzard's style.

[SonicTMP]

scarecrowz sounds like the guy who got trounced cause he sucks. There's no discussion here,j ust demands for hard nerfs without any proper numbers. No acknowledgement of counter arguments of how do deal with Ret's abilities.

He's bad, got destroyed and is now on a crusade for the spec to basically be deleted so it becomes an easy target for him to kill. Best off just ignoring him. No amount of logic will work. He'll keep foaming at the mouth until every ret here bows down to his demands.

[Deleted]

Or refer to major pvp tournaments. If ret life was that easy then u would see more than none on that stage last 10 years

[Talon8669]

If you think our mobility is awesome you've never used it.

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That's not what pally is... "pursuit of justice" is what pallys are... "You can run, but we will catch you eventually" has always been Ret's thing, not high mobility, but consistent, now we have super inconsistent mobility that we barely get to use.

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You can't comprehend simple English?

No offense but "pursuit of justice" being the sprint on judgment I assume is not what Pally's are. This may be your vision of them. However, most of Ret's history has been one of limited mobility with no sprint but they had other tools to compensate. They had their old judgments and seals where they had to make a choice between a dps seal or a slow seal. They could also swap seals on the fly so they could judge for a slow and then swap to dps seal for more dmg. Blizz eliminated this gameplay to make the game easier. They eventually compensated with pursuit of justice and later the charger for a gap closer. This was however not due to the mobility lack specific of Ret but instead a pass across all classes due to the arms race going on between melee and casters (really just melee in general).

WoW has shifted away from the whole melee should have around 50% up time and as a result should do heavy dmg when they get on someone. Ret also used to do a lot more range dmg with exorcism, hammer of wrath as an execute. Once Holy power was introduced and the builder spender combo became a thing Ret's range damage started getting gutted. As a result we're left with now BfA's version of ret which for the moment on beta is a heavy dmg dealer with the ability to off heal. The added utility of buffs, cleanse, bubbles, freedom and LoH makes Ret very powerful in group PvP. Ret still struggles with classes that have mobility but they do have the tools to deal with them, especially in a group setting. Keep in mind Blizz formal opinion on balance is around 3v3 not 1v1 or bgs rated or normal.

My opinion of ret and mobility are (2) minor changes. Stead should be lowered CD to 30 seconds last 3 seconds (no talent for 2 charges) and second stead should auto cast freedom or provide a similar mechanic without putting freedom on CD. I think you make those two changes and you see Ret being very strong. We can judge too often so I think a sprint like the old pursuit of justice would be too strong (probably balanced for most cases 1v1 and open world) in group PvP; either 3v3 or RBGs. It might be balanced for normal BGs where group play is less coordinated and more mob mentality but again Blizz official stance is PvP balance around 3v3 and I feel the sprint on judgment would be too strong in that case. I find it acceptable and fine that out limitations dictate to a degree what rated comps we play in arena. Most classes comps are determined this way. Take a class and look at it's positives and negatives, then pick another dps or healer and make a selection based on their strengths and weaknesses and then lastly add your 3rd class. Once going through this process you should have a balanced team that can support each other, be it healing and utility or just raw throughput and CC.

In any event if you've been around since vanilla or at least horde since TBC you know the Ret struggle has been real for some time, baring so minor cases where Ret was through the roof and the nerf bat cleaved their legs out from under them. Right now, in both Legion and BfA Ret has been far better than it's ever been. I'd like to see wake of ashes base line along with consecration but here's to crossing your fingers and hopefully 8.1 having a little rework.

Anyways hope you have a great day, would love to hear your thoughts further on what you feel should be done with Ret and your opinion on balance with regards to team play. If you've stated them I probably only made it 2-3 pages in before quoting and responding to you so I may have missed.

[Segus1992]

This just feel countered by Warriors with their charges and heroic leaps, though. But beside that, you know that it's countered by the fact that you use your whole body to carry the weight - not just your shoulders and back, yes? It's not as bad as people say when they bring up you can't jump up on a horse with full plate armour and that you need help to do so - which is false.

I mean, next someone will say that the mobility is much worse and ignore the fact you can do flips and wheelies in full plate armour. '.'

Let's not pretend that this is standard plate armour though.

[Schattenlied]

No offense but "pursuit of justice" being the sprint on judgment I assume is not what Pally's are.

Instead of assuming, you could have taken 5 seconds to do a google search and would have known that the sprint on Judgment is in fact called Long Arm of the Law, not Pursuit of Justice. Pursuit of Justice is a passive movespeed talent that we had since vanilla until the Legion prepatch.

However, most of Ret's history has been one of limited mobility with no sprint but they had other tools to compensate.

Yes, which is exactly what I just said, which you would know if you bothered to look up what PoJ was before incorrectly assuming it was a sprint. PoJ+Emancipate ( or cleanse, from vanilla-cataclysm) is what our mobility used to be, not high, but consistent. We only moved 15% faster than base run speed (8% in vanilla, buffed to 15% in TBC, in MoP/WoD it was changed to 15%+5% per holy power up to an additional 15%), but we were extremely hard to stop from moving at our full speed.

would love to hear your thoughts further on what you feel should be done with Ret

^ Exactly what I just outlined above ^ plus a weaker, more consistent snare (30s cd snare is a horrid design), whatever damage nerf they deem necessary, and removal of Divine Wheelchair in compensation.

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your post since your entire argument is based on an incorrect assumption of what I was asking for.

[Talon8669]

Instead of assuming, you could have taken 5 seconds to do a google search and would have known that the sprint on Judgment is in fact called Long Arm of the Law, not Pursuit of Justice. Pursuit of Justice is a passive movespeed talent that we had since vanilla until the Legion prepatch.


Yes, which is exactly what I just said, which you would know if you bothered to look up what PoJ was before incorrectly assuming it was a sprint. PoJ+Emancipate ( or cleanse, from vanilla-cataclysm) is what our mobility used to be, not high, but consistent. We only moved 15% faster than base run speed, but we were extremely hard to stop from moving at our full speed.


^ Exactly what I just outlined above ^

I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your post since your entire argument is based on incorrect assumption.

Apologies for mixing the two up but I wasn't assuming anything just made an honest mistake. Also my entire argument if you want to actually call it that wasn't based on a 15% run speed (8% in vanilla, didn't search for the other xpacs to see if it was increased at some point to 15%). It was based on Ret having a lot of tools and not needing a sprint or a passive run increase. But I do agree they need some adjustments, again lowered CD on steed baseline would be nice. The 15% run speed I would agree would also be nice but I still don't think it's mandatory. Ret always has the potential to be very strong with it's utility kit, healing and good burst. Right now in BfA they are pretty much god mode but we'll have to see how healing and damage come out after serious balancing starts hitting; as of now i think they have only gotten around a 7% dmg nerf.

The ultimate point I was trying to make is Ret should have some disadvantages like all classes should. Ret's disadvantage like DK's is it's mobility. Ret get's freedom, steed, ranged snare and bubbles along with on demand self heals to deal with it's disadvantage which I don't think you can ignore. Again Ret needs some minor adjustments and I wouldn't complain over Ret getting passive speed buff but I don't think it's required. On a side note I see your also from good old WA, I am sitting down in the Olympia area.

[yamix]

*contemplates the amount of complaining that will occur regarding about classic server balance*

If there's an issue I'd rather see them ramp up the damage rather than give everyone sprints and leaps. They've been pretty clear about not wanting to give every spec every tool.

[Schattenlied]

If there's an issue I'd rather see them ramp up the damage

Yes, because getting one shot is fun, right?

They've been pretty clear about not wanting to give every spec every tool.

We dont need every tool, we just need the tools necessary for us to adequately perform our primary function.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You don't get all that utility and get to keep the damage too.

All that utility?
You mean, 2 blessings, one of which is almost never used selflessly?
What an oversight on bzzd's part.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Utility means many things.

Yeah right.
If you want to go smartass about that, it is quite easy to say that heals are utility, as well.
Which is not necessarily so.
Or would you like to go pants-on-head retarded and claim slows and stuns are utility, as well? You are welcome to, then, for I am always eager to be amused by people sprouting nonsense.
While in fact, Ret utility can be summed up as: 2 blessings, poison/disease cleanse.
So much utility. A nerf, a severe nerf is required indeed. I see that clearly now.
Sure as sure.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Enjoy your nerf.

What a joy it is having a discussion with you.
Much cohessiveness, very arguement, wow

[Divinexve]

Why does this thread exist but a dk mobility one doesnt

[Morally Grey Storm]

Why does this thread exist but a dk mobility one doesnt

Why do you ask it in the paladin forum when it's a dk issue

[Deleted]

Why does this thread exist but a dk mobility one doesnt

Think it's because throughout legion rets needed extremely high uptime to perform decently (especially during wings) and the current mobility/gap closing would not allow this to happen both pvp and pve wise.
And probs DKs got that utility called grip that is always usefull in every situation and few would mind them being slowpokes.

[8bithamster]

Why does this thread exist but a dk mobility one doesnt

Because scarecrowz is keeping the thread alive by the thing he always does. Trolling, and amusingly enough people keep falling for it.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Because scarecrowz is keeping the thread alive by the thing he always does. Trolling, and amusingly enough people keep falling for it.

He's mildly funny and somewhat entertaining, so why not.

[Stormbornsham]

NPCs Paladins and Paladin/Paladin archetypes in other Blizzard games (like Yrel, who was just added to HOTS, Crusaders in HOTS/D3) have decent mobility through leaps, and after nearly 3 years of complaining about our awful mobility in WoW, we're still sitting here riding a horse that is easily disabled for a whole 3 seconds a minute.

I am so disappointed in the WoW class team right now... the HOTS devs get it, the D3 devs get it, even the quest/NPC WoW devs get it, why can't the WoW class devs get on the same damn page?

As long as they completely eliminate Divine Shield, it would be fine.

[Deleted]

Reckon an easy solution to that would be to attach all our utility/defensives/off heals/mobility with our mana bar. Noone would be jumping up and down about our utility/defensives (omegalul but w/e the grass is always greener on the other side aint it) and our mobility if we would need to make decisions and not be able to spam/stack shit.
If for example we got our horsie as an enable/disable spell, with a speed bonus of x% , without a cd, at the cost of y% base mana per sec : we would be able to make choices as to whether we would spend our mana healing or casting utility spells or trying to close the gap with that ranged kiting us or trying to reach a certain spot in an encounter platform. As an example if we would decide to pop a bubble costing lets say z% of our mana and then try to reach our goal that would mean less speed buff duration and on top of that less chances to be able to cast a self heal or a bop/loh to an ally on our way ...
I do believe that this would flavor things up, enable players to make choices etc and would also provide the devs with tuning tools i.e. mana costs, mana regen etc in case something was considered broken during testing or live.
Cause at the moment Divine Steed is a difficult spell to manage and everything around it sounds stiff and constipated