I expect M+ participation to drop off hard in BfA.

[Wvvtayy]

People don't do M+ for the chests at the end of the dungeon outside of some more niche farming situations at the bleeding edge.

They do it either for the prestige(high keys) or the weekly chest(max for the week).

That's not going to change in BFA(in fact the 2nd reason is even more so now that you can get up to 3 items from the weekly chest and it prioritizes Azerite Slots and Weapons). Your thread is debunked.

Except no its not, as I mentioned people will still do it once per week for the chest. But there will be absolutely no point of running it outside the weekly unless you're one of the few bleeding edge players who compete for high keys.

[SinR]

How to deal with Tank Threat changes:

Tank: kill Skull first. if you don't and you die cause you're DPSing the X first we'll laugh at you
DPS: FUCK YOU YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME
*dead DPS*
Rest of group: Haha you're dead. You're pulling some nice Floor DPS, bro

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Why do I think this? There's a number of contributing factors

1. As I've mentioned before, the massive nerf to tank threat gen, making it so that every week feels like skittish week.

2. Massive nerfs to the aoe capabilities of most specs also making them more tedious and difficult.

And the biggest reason of all...

3. Massive nerf to titanforging chances, making repeat runs of high level keys not at all worth it because heroic raids are easier than +15s, drop WAY more gear, and drop better gear. Since farming them will no longer be worthwhile outside of the first few lockouts of a new tier, almost everybody will simply do one per week for the chest and that's it.

Edit: Since people can't read, I'm going to clarify this here. The point I'm making about the thread isn't about how much you or I personally enjoy M+, I'm sure a lot of people on here love the changes, but keep in mind the people who post here tend to be far better at the game than 99% of people. The thread is about overall participation within the playerbase dropping off. Ghostcrawler said it himself in regards to the Cataclysm heroics being hard then subsequently nerfed. When content is too hard for people, most people don't "git gud", they simply quit the game or don't do the difficult content.

Haven't played the test realms, but what I hear is tank threat is still not an issue - not really like skittish at all - as long as you aren't using the uber kiting strats that became popular in most recent tournament.

I think participation will depend mostly on whether the dungeons are fun and offer good replayability.

[AgilityTank]

I disagree with everything op thinks in all of his threads.

[rda]

How to deal with Tank Threat changes:

Tank: kill Skull first. if you don't and you die cause you're DPSing the X first we'll laugh at you
DPS: FUCK YOU YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME
*dead DPS*
Rest of group: Haha you're dead. You're pulling some nice Floor DPS, bro

So much fun. /sarcasm

This is boring and stupid. Maxing damage is why people play DPS. Having to hold off because tank cannot hold threat is nullifying your fun as a DPS. Why the hell tryhard if you just threw tons of what could have been damage out the window and will have to do so several more times? There is no reason. Just do safe mediocre DPS. It's boring.

[Charge me Doctor]

Lmfao what? Of course they do M+ for gear. Why else would they do it? For funnies? Yeah, look at how successful challenge modes were in MoP and WoD, few people did them and those who did, did them one time for the cosmetic rewards then never again. Why? Because they gave no power increasing rewards.

There are people who don't do M+ only for gear. Yes, they do it for funnies.

Challenge modes were shit because they scaled you down, and my fire mage dropped down to unplayable level of crit in them, forcing me to respec. Challenge modes simply had poor implementation, that's why people didn't do it, because chances are that their character is simply locked out of doing them of downscale basis.

People have been doing CMs multiple times simply for sheer amount of gold they provide (aka, boosting people).

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Except no its not, as I mentioned people will still do it once per week for the chest. But there will be absolutely no point of running it outside the weekly unless you're one of the few bleeding edge players who compete for high keys.

Or if you have fun doing M+
Or you need/want gear drops out of it
Or you want to experience it from a perspective of another spec.

[Super Kami Dende]

People that M+ will continue. People that don't will make up excuses why they don't.

[brbshower]

Why do I think this? There's a number of contributing factors

1. As I've mentioned before, the massive nerf to tank threat gen, making it so that every week feels like skittish week.

2. Massive nerfs to the aoe capabilities of most specs also making them more tedious and difficult.

And the biggest reason of all...

3. Massive nerf to titanforging chances, making repeat runs of high level keys not at all worth it because heroic raids are easier than +15s, drop WAY more gear, and drop better gear. Since farming them will no longer be worthwhile outside of the first few lockouts of a new tier, almost everybody will simply do one per week for the chest and that's it.

Edit: Since people can't read, I'm going to clarify this here. The point I'm making about the thread isn't about how much you or I personally enjoy M+, I'm sure a lot of people on here love the changes, but keep in mind the people who post here tend to be far better at the game than 99% of people. The thread is about overall participation within the playerbase dropping off. Ghostcrawler said it himself in regards to the Cataclysm heroics being hard then subsequently nerfed. When content is too hard for people, most people don't "git gud", they simply quit the game or don't do the difficult content.

Oh look, another one of these threads. Don't you already have multiple?

But, you should consider actually playing the beta before you scream that the sky is falling. Even unloading at the start of a pull I've yet to see a dps pull off of a tank, at all. The only way I could see it happening is with a high gear differential between the two, a shit bad tank, or a retarded dps who is attacking the wrong target. Still, even if it was a generous 1/10 times that it happened...that's why tanks have a taunt.

I play every class, every spec, and I don't see anything about them being tedious or difficult in regard to aoe, or the specs as a whole. I don't like outlaw, but that's because I feel it's a poorly designed spec and has been that way since it was created.

And even if ppl feel that running m+ is too hard, is that a bad thing? Most players who are serious about it only run with their guild. Those groups aren't going to see any change. If they do, either that player is bad or that guild is bad. It's not like you have to wait on a random lfg queue either, so time to find a group won't be impacted.

& to point 3: I know blizzard has said that mythics are meant to be an alternative to raiding but you know what...I don't see it that way and never will. If you want raid quality gear, then go raid. If you want dungeon gear, go run a dungeon. There are far too many ways to gear up, and play catch up later on in the expansion. This is why we also get 1000 threads a month with players QQ'n about how it's not fair that they can't take long breaks from the game, then decide to come back and instantly be on par with everyone else. And unfortunately blizzard continues to cater to those players. I'm sorry but no. Gear, gold, progress...it's called investing the time. Not rushing through content, quitting, then coming back and crying until someone throws you free crap for doing 1/100th of the amount of work. /end personal rant

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So much fun. /sarcasm

This is boring and stupid. Maxing damage is why people play DPS. Having to hold off because tank cannot hold threat is nullifying your fun as a DPS. Why the hell tryhard if you just threw tons of what could have been damage out the window and will have to do so several more times? There is no reason. Just do safe mediocre DPS. It's boring.

lolwut? Maxing damage might be why YOU play dps, but it certainly isn't why myself and many others do it. I do it, b/c I prefer it over healing and tanking as a main spec. Do you know what matters the absolute most in a successful group? The mob dying. Your personal dps doesn't mean shit if you aren't working TOGETHER with the rest of the group to make sure mobs are dying and not group members. Yes, dps is a factor. But look back at TBC, Wrath, Cata...piss poor dps was the norm. Why? Because it was more important to make sure your cc had 100% uptime, that you were following a kill order, and you weren't standing in the wrong spot.

Selfish players with tunnel vision who only care about their personal numbers IN AN MMO is one of the worst types of players. If that's how you feel, LFR is that way cupcake.

[rda]

lolwut? Maxing damage might be why YOU play dps, but it certainly isn't why myself and many others do it.

Make a poll.

Your reasons to play a DPS are wildly unappealing, it seems like DPS either isn't really your main role despite you saying it is, or that you are new to the game, or that you are, simply speaking, bad at doing DPS and have to resort to "but it went down, did it? so my DPS was fine" to justify your place in a group. DPS that does not go balls to the wall to max damage is a bad DPS. Sure, you have to live and do mechanics, totally, but maxing damage is why you DPS at all.

[Sithalos]

M+ will be fine.

*Yawn*

[Sencha]

You might want to read the last paragraph before posting. The thread isn't about you. It's about the whole player base. Not everything is about you.

As your OP is YOUR opinion.

[Harry Botter]

Why do I think this? There's a number of contributing factors

1. As I've mentioned before, the massive nerf to tank threat gen, making it so that every week feels like skittish week.

2. Massive nerfs to the aoe capabilities of most specs also making them more tedious and difficult.

And the biggest reason of all...

3. Massive nerf to titanforging chances, making repeat runs of high level keys not at all worth it because heroic raids are easier than +15s, drop WAY more gear, and drop better gear. Since farming them will no longer be worthwhile outside of the first few lockouts of a new tier, almost everybody will simply do one per week for the chest and that's it.

Edit: Since people can't read, I'm going to clarify this here. The point I'm making about the thread isn't about how much you or I personally enjoy M+, I'm sure a lot of people on here love the changes, but keep in mind the people who post here tend to be far better at the game than 99% of people. The thread is about overall participation within the playerbase dropping off. Ghostcrawler said it himself in regards to the Cataclysm heroics being hard then subsequently nerfed. When content is too hard for people, most people don't "git gud", they simply quit the game or don't do the difficult content.

It's been a while since we have had one of your bitching threads, I was starting to worry if you were sick.

[Nutrition]

Except no its not, as I mentioned people will still do it once per week for the chest. But there will be absolutely no point of running it outside the weekly unless you're one of the few bleeding edge players who compete for high keys.

It seems very,very likely that with seasons being made in bfa that they plan for mythic+ to have rewards similar to pvp. It would not surprise me to see mounts,enchants,and other rewards for people who push exceedingly high keys.

[Twdft]

I agree, I think participation will fall off pretty quickly, myself I'll be doing my 1 run for the best rewards and not touching it for the rest of the week.

Do you run more than 1 now? If so why not in BfA too?

[Tiltkappa]

It's really not. As previously stated, Heroic Antorus is much easier to pug for the most part (up until aggramar) than +15 keys and it rewards worst gear.

You forget that raids are something you can clear once per week, not sure how large of a portion I am speaking for, when saying that people play more often that once a week, hence why they'd benefit from doing extra content on top of raiding. Not to even mention that people might like the feeling of the challenge it brings.

You also seem quite oblivious to the fact that every player in this game is on a sliding scale of how hard they want the game to be. Everybody who wants to do a dungeon can choose how difficult they want it to be, doesn't change from the last expansion in any way, hence why it's ludicrous how you'd think the overall participation would go down.

MDI gaining viewership also means great things for m+, you were arguing that: "Why do people keep bringing up the MDI, that has nothing to do with overall participation in M+." That's just flat out not true, competitive games such as: League of Legends, CS:GO, Dota 2. wouldn't have half the player base without a competitive league. Players who are scared of going into m+ can see other people doing it at a much harder level, and they might want to test if they could do a small +2.

"2. Massive nerfs to the aoe capabilities of most specs also making them more tedious and difficult." From every spec I've tried so far, aoe hasn't gotten worse. Rogue: Sub, Assa / Warlock: Demo, Destro / Warrior: Arms / Priest: Shadow

[Deleted]

You are forgetting a factor.
There's currently so many boost selling services that the playerbase is almsot divided in 2 camps, those who sell boosts and those who buy boosts.
And then there's people inbetween that are capable of doing mythic but are having a hard time finding groups of equal skill, who arent charging for their services.

[taishar68]

I didn't know they rebuffed tank threat, but even if that's the case, reason 3 is a far bigger problem than the first two

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Heroic is puggable, so there's no reason you CANT raid, but for the tiny minority that doesn't want to for whatever reason I guess it's not as much of an issue, but the nerf to Titanforge chances I imagine will make people get bored pretty quickly once they're fully geared.

The difference between doing a Mythic with 4 friends and pugging a heroic raid is huge. Not everyone plays WoW the same way, and I am fairly certain that in the WoW community, it’s actually the minority that actually pugs heroic raids. They’re just awfully loud. Personally, I’ll have more fun wiping in Mythic with friends and guildies than being a stranger in a pug.

[ShiyoKozuki]

It's really not. As previously stated, Heroic Antorus is much easier to pug for the most part (up until aggramar) than +15 keys and it rewards worst gear.

Yep. Also takes 2-4 hours to clear max and gives substantially more loot than 3-4 hours of M+ would give.

It's disgusting how much more rewarding raids are, and how NOTHING is being done to fix this. M+, warfronts, world quests, and island expeditions are all essentially dead on arrival in BFA.

BFA is going to be as "raid or die" as WOD was.

We got rid of Holinka and Celestalon, now it's time to get rid of the final person with bad ideas, Ion.

[ID811717]

And it's a good thing. If you're doing content giving you 330ilvl why are you entitled to a 360 piece of gear? Enough of those + mythic+ cache (also giving you gear of ilvl that you don't deserve) and you'll be able to get invited to content requiring an ilvl that you didn't actually do nor prove to be able to, you just got lucky and inflated your ilvl.

It's a bad thing. I'm pugging +25s on live and progress 26-27 with my group. Titanforge in Legion makes it possible without raiding mythic on specific char. (And I don't care that people spamming +15s might get similar quality gear, I rarely meet them in game). If BfA makes this gear progression even harder then I might just stop doing M+ (raiding mythic on at least 2 chars just to have gear for M+ would be dumb).

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Point 3) Currently in M + legion I never dropped a piece over 950 and m+ I did a lot.

I think I got 960-965 ilvl items from M+ end-of-dungeon (not weekly) chests in nearly every slot. On two characters. The highest is 975 ring with gem slot. Obviously not all items are useful, some have trash stats.

[Marrilaife]

Yep. Also takes 2-4 hours to clear max and gives substantially more loot than 3-4 hours of M+ would give.

It's disgusting how much more rewarding raids are, and how NOTHING is being done to fix this. M+, warfronts, world quests, and island expeditions are all essentially dead on arrival in BFA.

With the only difference that mythic+ gives weekly chest with guaranteed item, and can roll 2-3 items equal to MYTHIC raiding that does not take "2-4 hours to clear casually in a pug" and has no guaranteed pity rewards per week, unless there is another mission for cache (in legion that was 1 item per 2 weeks). If you have bad luck in the world of personal loot - you can raid all week and get nothing. Mythic+ always gives you something.

Running mythic+ for weekly chest also takes on average less time than clearing the raid, and guarantees you won't walk out empty handed.

If there was no weekly chest, your claim would have some basis. Unfortunately, Blizzard made it even more effortless than in Legion, months ago I thought weekly chest is already too lucrative, maybe it should require 3-5 dungeons a week instead of one. But nope, still requires 1 dungeon and they even upped the amount of items you get for it. You'd have to be completely blind to claim "mythic+ is dead on arrival" when it's gonna be the most reliable progression path in pve. Oh, and you can coin mythic+ too in BFA...