The Sin'dorei on Garithos and Lordaeron

[MrSaggins]

I'm curious if the Blood Elves resent the whole of the Alliance for the actions of Grand Marshall Garithos, or specifically humans. And if they only resent the latter, then have the humans of Stormwind and Gilneas earned their ire, or is it specifically reserved for the humans of Lordaeron? They would have served under Garithos, and, in death, served the former Thalassian Ranger General as Forsaken. Did the Blood Elves feel resentment toward the undead Forsaken up until they offered to help in Ghostlands? Do they still? Certainly Garithos didn't turn the pittance of elves who remained after Arthas' attack into canon fodder alone; and to later cage them and plan to execute them required the men (and women?) under him to assist in plotting the Sin'dorei's demise. These soldiers would have presumably been Lordaeronean, and I imagine Nathanos Marris could have been a subject of Garithos' family given his stead's location. Could Garithos come back as Forsaken or Lightforged Forsaken?

I'm just exploring plot points for Alliance Quel/Ren'dorei to resent the Horde's token humans (:

[Hach]

The quel'dorei were pretty much completely abandoned by the Alliance as a whole and were basically left to contend with the Plague of Undeath all on their lonesome. And when rechristened as the sin'dorei by their capricious leader, their ties with their former allies were only further strained thanks to the xenophobic Grand Marshall Garithos, as you said. Even if the other races of the Alliance were dealing with their own issues at the time — including the humans of Stormwind, the sin'dorei most certainly don't just blame the forces of Lordaeron for failing to uphold the terms of their so-called alliance.

It's not like there wasn't good reason for the blood elves to have joined the Horde, as opposed to those that had abandoned them in their greatest hour of need. However, I've always viewed their relationship with the Forsaken to be a pretty hokey one, and is likely only something that was made manifest simply to facilitate game mechanics, more than anything. That said, I doubt very much the sin'dorei as a whole blame the individual, undead citizens of Lordaeron for their past woes, and especially not now, however, it's definitely something you could explore on character basis, for sure.

[mickybrighteyes]

The quel'dorei were pretty much completely abandoned by the Alliance as a whole and were basically left to contend with the Plague of Undeath all on their lonesome.

sadly this isn't entirely true.

After fighting back the trolls with the help of the alliance, Anasterion was trying to pull out of the alliance entirely. He didn't fully do so, and I think that's in part to not wanting to completely sever relations... and well Frostmourne severing a few of his own connections... but Quel'thalas didn't exactly help Lordaeron with the plague to begin with.

I could see this being a main reason why Garithos grew to dislike the elves and impact his particular character development (that we don't really see...)

[Dead Moose Fandango]

They asked for it. So who cares what a traitor thinks? /s

Edit: Sorry, Missed that /s.

[Gurluas]

Garithos is actually upset because the Elves, being snooty and selfish, thought it was beneath them to help a local human town they were obligated to and would have easily defended. That was where his family was, and they died as a result.

Similarly, the Elves didn't come to the aid of the Humans vs the Scourge, hence why there were no humans left on the upper part of the continent to defend the Elves. They didn't even want to be a part of the second war, it was just because the trolls were such a threat, they needed help, as Elves seem to always need vs trolls.

Pretty much.
The thing is, the High elves realize this, they know their people made a mistake.
All High elves very much resent and dislike Garithos, but they don't blame all Humans for his actions.

The Sin'dorei however, tout Garithos as a paragon and representative of the entire Human race, when he was nothing but the commander leading what remains of a dying Kingdom's army. Didn't help that a group of Nelves mysteriously came to spy on the Sin'dorei later...did we ever find out who sent those Sentinels there?

It seems out of character for Tyrande to send a fleet of Sentinels to the other end of the continent to spy on and sabotage a race struggling with the Scourge.
Perhaps it was Fandral?

[Deleted]

Sin'dorei hate the humans (Alliance) so much that they even considered rejoining the Alliance during Mists of Pandaria before Jaina went all killing spree on them.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blood_elf under Landfall

The blood elves arrive in force to Pandaria, Regent Lord Theron himself leading a retinue of rangers, Sunfury, Blood Knights to the scene. The Reliquary has also been deployed, dispersing to uncover secrets long-hidden on the continent. Relations between the sin'dorei and the Horde become strained due to multiple instances of the blood elves' welfare being disregarded by the Warchief Garrosh, culminating in Lor'themar contemplating pulling Quel'Thalas out of the Horde, and rejoining the Alliance. As Lor'themar and Varian Wrynn begin talks to this end, however, the Sunreavers (whose ranks included agents of Garrosh Hellscream willing to risk their neutrality for his sake) are violently expelled from Dalaran by Jaina Proudmoore, who declares it for the Alliance. In retaliation, Grand Magister Rommath assaults Dalaran in an effort to rescue Aethas and the Sunreavers. He succeeds in his mission, coming to the aid of many wounded Sunreavers, forewarning those unaware of the danger, and freeing Aethas himself from the Violet Citadel. In the aftermath of this, the Sunreavers come to hold Garrosh as responsible for their removal from Dalaran as Jaina herself.

Though Jaina's purge puts an end to the talks between Theron and King Wrynn (and forces the sin'dorei back to Hellscream's Horde), Lor'themar is incensed at Garrosh regardless, and relations between them break down. Lor'themar orders Halduron and Rommath to assemble the rangers and magi, and states that the time had come for the sin'dorei to take matters into their own hands.

[mickybrighteyes]

at this point I think the Sindorei as a whole only really dislike the silver covenant. Most everyone else is just... there... to them. In with UC cause they're literally the closest major power and it makes sense to join up with them to avoid conflict and Stormwind probably didn't seem so hot when it's leadership was questionable and under the sway of neltharion's brood (really though... early stormwind just looked soo much worse off once you got into all teh quests)

[Sangris]

The Sin'dorei however, tout Garithos as a paragon and representative of the entire Human race, when he was nothing but the commander leading what remains of a dying Kingdom's army. Didn't help that a group of Nelves mysteriously came to spy on the Sin'dorei later...did we ever find out who sent those Sentinels there

Not even the Sin'dorei hated all of humanity because of Garithos, otherwise they wouldn't have tried to join the Alliance before even thinking about joining the Horde. It was the actions of Prospector Anvilward and the Night Elves (who did far more than only spying, they actively sabotaged the last defense Quel'thalas had against the scourge) that pushed them to the Horde.
And even THAT wasn't enough for the Sin'dorei to completely hate humans, as they wanted to give them another go when things went south in MoP. However, Jaina put the final nail in the coffin with the Purge of Dalaran.

So, in the eyes of the Blood Elves, they tried to join the Alliance 3 times in the time from WC3 TFT to MoP, and were always stabbed in the back. There is really no surprise that Lor'themar told Alleria to kindly fuck off when she wanted them to rejoin the Alliance.

[Deleted]

They are elves... don't expect anything logical from any elf

[Sangris]

Anvilward + NE were when the Blood Elves were already a part of the Horde, no?

No, the Blood Elves are actually neutral for the entirety of their starting zone. They went to the Alliance first, got sabotaged, killed the spies and saboteurs, got help from the Forsaken in Ghostlands (but were not part of the Horde), killed Dar'khan with the help of the Forsaken and only joined the Horde after they went to Thrall with proof of Dar'khan's demise (as a means to prove themselves capable). Literally the final sentence of the Blood Elf story questing is "Welcome to the Horde, Elf."

[Aeula]

Their hatred for the Alliance is more than just Garithos. They’ve given the Alliance an open ear twice since then, both times the Alliance back stabbed them.

First when they were looking for allies following Kael’thas’ journey to Outland. Rather than trying to get the Blood a Elves to rejoin they sent a dwarven spy and a small army of Night Elves to sabotage them and pave the way for an invasion. After this the Horde sent troops and supplies to help them. This is why they chose the Horde instead.

The Second time Jaina and her army of bigots purged Dalaran.

The only Alliance race that they don’t have reason to hate are the Draenei, whom they’re on friendly terms with.

As for Garithos himself, he wasn’t just one man, there were plenty of Humans and Dwarves who followed him and enabled him to do what he did.

[mickybrighteyes]

That's part of the beauty that's missing these days. Benedictus, a young and incapable Anduin, the King rotting in a prison somewhere missing.

The Alliance were coming out of every war barely standing. Now the Alliance are strong again, meaning there is no reason for the Horde to exist anymore.

except the alliance aren't really unified. we have the high king in charge but it seems the position holds less authority. If not for the upcoming shit in Teldrassil they might not even be able to get together and actually do anything. Navy wise... horde seems to near match what the alliance has and the horde still manages to have forsaken and orcish vessels in production somehow... honestly the main reason both factions don't but heads more is due to their locations. The alliance can't really extend to threaten horde interests more than a little without basically screwing themselves over like they did to get the defias (a lovely notion everyone forgets... stormwind's massive population needs to be getting paid/fed SOMEHOW)

[Aeula]

I could be remembering wrong, but I recall the Blood Elves are already partially accepted by the Horde at this point, and just needed to prove themselves, hence the Alliance reaction.

They were exploring both options, then when Anvilward revealed his treachery they began the process of joining the Horde, which is what we see in the Ghostlands.

[Aeula]

Exploring both options means they were already beginning the process of joining the Horde.

Not really. They were accepting ambassadors from both factions. They didn’t chose which one to join until the Alliance showed their true colours.

[Sangris]

I could be remembering wrong, but I recall the Blood Elves are already partially accepted by the Horde at this point, and just needed to prove themselves, hence the Alliance reaction.

There is no Horde interaction until Ghostlands (aside from one Darkspear who is imprisoned in Tor'Watha by Amani and dies later on - there is no explanation why exactly he was there, but even when you talk to him he explains what he is, meaning no real connection to the Horde has been made so far), Eversong Woods quests actually only interact with the Alliance. The Horde interaction in the Ghostlands came as a result of the Alliance backstabbing the Blood Elves.

[Gurmech]

I think Blizzard abandoned this plot point/explanation because it didn't really make sense with the Forsaken.

Either Garithos is a true and honest representative of the Alliance, in which case the Forsaken can not claim victimhood for not being welcomed by the Alliance since they killed and betrayed an Alliance representative before making contact, or he isn't, in which case the Blood elf vendetta is childish and pointless.

And indeed, in the chronicles it is explained that the elves joined the Horde because of the original secession from the Alliance and Kael'Thas alliance with Illidan and the naga made reconnecting with the Alliance difficult.

[Steampunkette]

Their hatred for the Alliance is more than just Garithos. They’ve given the Alliance an open ear twice since then, both times the Alliance back stabbed them.

First when they were looking for allies following Kael’thas’ journey to Outland. Rather than trying to get the Blood a Elves to rejoin they sent a dwarven spy and a small army of Night Elves to sabotage them and pave the way for an invasion. After this the Horde sent troops and supplies to help them. This is why they chose the Horde instead.

The Second time Jaina and her army of bigots purged Dalaran.

The only Alliance race that they don’t have reason to hate are the Draenei, whom they’re on friendly terms with.

As for Garithos himself, he wasn’t just one man, there were plenty of Humans and Dwarves who followed him and enabled him to do what he did.

^This.

The Belves have a reason to hate Garithos and his men, yes, which was the entire remaining army of Lordaeron, and the only representatives of the Alliance in the region outside of Dalaran. When Garithos declared the entire race traitors and his intent to see that every elf was executed, he handed the entire elven military over to Dalaran for imprisonment pending execution. Dalaran went along with it.

So it wasn't -just- Garithos or even Garithos and -just- his men. Dalaran was also complicit in the intended genocide of Quel'thalas.

As to the Lordaeronian Army serving under Sylvanas: We just don't know. I -doubt- they raised Garithos as a sapient undead, or his men... But there's nothing in the canon on it.

Now before Vanilla launched, Sylvanas sent emissaries to Quel'thalas to try and set up an alliance between the Forsaken and her former family/friends in the elven homeland, but because of the Dead Scar and the horrors that they'd seen the Belves were unwilling to form such an alliance and sent the emissaries packing back to Stormwind. But nothing was mentioned of them being worried about Garithos's men serving her.

THEN comes the whole thing the above poster mentioned about the Burning Crusade expansion, and much later the events of Mists of Pandaria.

[mickybrighteyes]

^This.

The Belves have a reason to hate Garithos and his men, yes, which was the entire remaining army of Lordaeron, and the only representatives of the Alliance in the region outside of Dalaran. When Garithos declared the entire race traitors and his intent to see that every elf was executed, he handed the entire elven military over to Dalaran for imprisonment pending execution. Dalaran went along with it.

So it wasn't -just- Garithos or even Garithos and -just- his men. Dalaran was also complicit in the intended genocide of Quel'thalas.

actually i want to say it's stated that Garithos had a number of friends in interesting places that allowed for his promotion to the position he had. so Dalaran as a whole may have been largely unaware of the actual events since they had other issues going on with repairing the city after it was decimated.

[Steampunkette]

All these people were a part of a different faction and are dead by the time Vanilla rolls around though.

Good to know the entire population of Dalaran was wiped out. Who was it that was manning the Flying City, again? The Flying City that only became Neutral in Wrath content and returned to the Alliance in Mists?

And whether it's a "Different Faction" or the Continuation of the Alliance of Lordaeron with a shiny new name "The Alliance" (Really?) is a question up for debate. And really only answered in the same manner as the Ship of Theseus question. Where do you think the snooty High Elves would draw the line after having humans attempt to commit genocide?

actually i want to say it's stated that Garithos had a number of friends in interesting places that allowed for his promotion to the position he had. so Dalaran as a whole may have been largely unaware of the actual events since they had other issues going on with repairing the city after it was decimated.

He did have friends in interesting places! And also the chain of command that was still above him was slaughtered by the undead, so that helped him get some quick promotionss... Though yeah, most of the Alliance that remained had no goddamned -clue- what was going on with Garithos in Lordaeron. The Dwarves even sent him reinforcements without knowing that he was a megalomaniacal rampaging racist who hated Elves because his family died when he was off fighting to save Elves (Not because the elves didn't protect his people as someone mentioned, earlier) and Dwarves because they're "Less than Humans" with no further explanation of it.

Though Dalaran had -some- idea of what was happening, since the Belves were guarding the flank of Dalaran against the Scourge while protecting a bunch of Dalaran Mage Towers that allowed them to see great distances and know that the Belves were fighting against impossible odds and would've failed (Causing Dalaran to fall) had they not accepted the help of the Naga... Which is the crime Garithos accused them of when he decided to execute every Belf soldier he had and destroy Quel'thalas after the Scourge was dealt with.

[Shibito]

During MoP the Blood Elves talk about rejoining the Alliance during questing quite a bit.

They were invited to the Alliance again, and declined for Legion/BFA though - for an unknown reason that Lor'themar seems to be very upset about.

Unknown reason? Might have something to do with the purge of dalaran?