As Horde, i have no motivation to hate the alliance

[Hitei]

technically civilian just means not part of police force or armed services. So explorers, privateers, freelancers... as long as they aren't part of armed forces of some sort they can still be classified as civilians. People going of to work on a oil rig in the middle of the ocean don't stop being civilians because of what the oil may be used for

edit:
@Hitei

You're version of events has varied from SI:7 was there first before anyone else was even aware to incorporating an explorers league who get sent in at a later date....

And you're whole schpeel is pot calling kettle since you've been trying to assert Alliance got on the scene first... and then argue they AREN'T being hostile and the reasoning you give for that latter bit is the same that can be said for the goblin miners. Now the story talks about more than one goblin organization... the mining operation, Gallywix's thugs, and Grizzek. Grizzek has no real connection beyond getting resources. Druz and Kizzek (the main thugs watching Grizzek) are the ones doing wet work, and the miners are all different legs of this operation and as for timescale.... that part is dubious at best and you call me out for unwillingness to accept horde aggressors is laughable when you've gone to such lengths with bad info trying to say alliance aren't in anyways aggressors.

The way I see it, you're HOPING SI:7 isn't starting shit and trying to state Druz and Kizzek (the ones directly responsible for the kidnapping) made teh first move, yet it seems that this takes place AFTER both SI:7 and the Goblin mining operation are already butting heads. You can claim "spies doing nuthin wrong" but they're being found and spotted in some capacity in an unspecified timetable that is transpiring between the time Shaw passes off the sample to Anduin and prior to him sending in the Explorer's League....

How is there any variation? SI:7 being there first doesn't somehow conflict with the league being sent in at a later date to research azerite and being attacked. I'll go ahead and point out again that even after the goblins attack the Alliance, SI:7 still shows zero evidence of attacking the Goblins.

Do you have any evidence that the spies were butting heads with the goblins before that attack? I doubt it, since the only thing we see about SI:7 between Shaw passing off the sample and the league being sent is the cinematic, wherein we see that SI:7 is keeping their distance. And since Nathanos, during the Horde quests, specifically says "IF you see any Alliance kill them", and the main Horde camp is only getting reports that there are Alliance around. It seems highly unlikely anyone was doing anything at all to the Goblins.

Especially when you consider that the goblin attack has absolutely nothing to do with SI:7 or "vengeance".

So again: Do you have any evidence, any at all, to suggest SI:7 has done anything wrong? Because we have a whole lot of sources saying they were sent there to observe the sword, noticed goblins, and then did nothing until fighting against the Horde player long after the attack on the explorer's league.

It is cute that you walked back that goalpost from SI:7 are murdering goblins to the already completely destroyed "S-SI:7 were attacking the Horde by happening to see them while they were investigating the sword!!!"

[Amaterasu65]

I think you're taking this the wrong way. You don't become a civilian 'of' the place you're working in... you're a civilian of the nation you're from. Those goblins are still part of the Bilgewater Cartel.... the explorer's league members are from wherever they came from before heading to Silithus. Both are civilian organizations sent to Silithus under orders of their respective leaders to pursue some goal.

But it seems that because the Goblins were mining something that has been turned into something important... they cease being civilians. Are the explorer's league also stripped of their civilian status because they were ordered to go to silithus as well?

Well yes, SI:7 are still part of Stormwind. Please do not neglect the points I made just for the final remark. I don't enjoy repeating myself but I will do it for the last time in this thread: a) mission, b) appointed by their government, c) secret nature, d) involving a suspicious mineral that could enhance the Horde's political/war agenda - > political nature of the mission, e) in contested ground, f) immediate under orders hostility to Alliance presence.

This is my final remark about the civilian/war crime topic. Further analysis would probably make it a discussion recycling and I want to avoid it.

[chikan]

i wont be surprised if its found out all this is Alleria doing

[Deleted]

You know, I undestrand it is off topic but isn't it funny how incompetent the Alliance is? I mean by the time they even realise that Azerite is a thing the Horde already has a huge mining operation in Silithus.
After that Sylvanas manages to trick the SI:7 and just waltz into Ashenvale.
The Alliance looses Teldrassil
While Lordaeron is retaken it is done only with catastrophic losses thanks to Anduins Leeroy Jenkins tactics and all the blight Slyvanas uses.
After that we have the Stormwind extraction with no Alliance equivalent, where a small team hacks down the 7th Legion and sets Stormwind on fire.
AAND after that their fleet gets decimated by the Zandalari.

Maybe it is time for some Worgen potential or Draenei potential cause our Human leader seems like a moron. Hell his only smart move so far was sending Genn to Kul Tiras just in case Jaina fucks up. Plot twist, she did.

[mickybrighteyes]

So again: Do you have any evidence, any at all, to suggest SI:7 has done anything wrong?

found trespassing on a sovereign nations mining operations... kind of a big deal

It is cute that you walked back that goalpost from SI:7 are murdering goblins to the already completely destroyed "S-SI:7 were attacking the Horde by happening to see them while they were investigating the sword!!!"

sure, go ahead and shove words down my throat and say they're mine. I have been saying SI:7 would do what they could to get intel, be it steal trespass, maybe even kill since it wouldn't be the first time they've killed goblins to get their job done. you've been swapping your story about how SI:7 got there and timeframe so they could be present to validate your story that... honestly only has readers as witnesses and a goblin/gnome couple that's MIA presumed dead to prove such an event happened.

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Well yes, SI:7 are still part of Stormwind. Please do not neglect the points I made just for the final remark. I don't enjoy repeating myself but I will do it for the last time in this thread: a) mission, b) appointed by their government, c) secret nature, d) involving a suspicious mineral that could enhance the Horde's political/war agenda - > political nature of the mission, e) in contested ground, f) immediate under orders hostility to Alliance presence.

This is my final remark about the civilian/war crime topic. Further analysis would probably make it a discussion recycling and I want to avoid it.

I wasn't talking about SI:7, which would NOT at all be a civilian organization due it it's association with Stormwind's military structure.

but that bold bit just makes it impossible to continue this discussion as that means by your logic anyone can be rendered something in the same category as a combatant because someone deems their activity to possibly more than it is. This is why I find the handling of Azerite from a scientific standpoint is just retarded. Unknown substance is discovered and with NO testing or study is dubbed possible super weapon material that everyone handling is scrambling for... and the only people who are aware of this possibly blew themselves up and destroyed their notes.

[Hitei]

found trespassing on a sovereign nations mining operations... kind of a big deal

sure, go ahead and shove words down my throat and say they're mine. I have been saying SI:7 would do what they could to get intel, be it steal trespass, maybe even kill since it wouldn't be the first time they've killed goblins to get their job done. you've been swapping your story about how SI:7 got there and timeframe so they could be present to validate your story that... honestly only has readers as witnesses and a goblin/gnome couple that's MIA presumed dead to prove such an event happened.

Do you have any evidence they were found trespassing on a sovereign nation's mining operations prior to that sovereign nation's mining operation attacking a non-hostile research team camped in the region? What's that you say? No?

Lol, no story has been swapped, what are you fucking on about? SI:7 got there, either before or the same day as the goblins. SI:7 stayed there. The explorer's league was attacked by the members of that ""sovereign nation's mining operations[/I]"".

Also, now we've gone from "SI:7 Murdered the goblins!" to "SI:7 was invading the Goblins!" to "Well, the Goblins might have killed everyone, so that attack doesn't count!"

[Deleted]

The Horde is full of idiots and assholes. Both in lore and in the playerbase.

"The Alliance is full of idiots and assholes. Both in lore and in the playerbase."
"America is full of idiots and assholes."
"EU is full of idiots and assholes." etc.

Seven year member and you still type like a 12 year old? Not going to use the "R" word here but it sure would fit unless you really are that young. A video game fantasy world might seem black and white but real life unfortunately is not. Most people are idiots now that's a fact not an opinion. Sorry for bad english.

[Amaterasu65]

found trespassing on a sovereign nations mining operations... kind of a big deal

sure, go ahead and shove words down my throat and say they're mine. I have been saying SI:7 would do what they could to get intel, be it steal trespass, maybe even kill since it wouldn't be the first time they've killed goblins to get their job done. you've been swapping your story about how SI:7 got there and timeframe so they could be present to validate your story that... honestly only has readers as witnesses and a goblin/gnome couple that's MIA presumed dead to prove such an event happened.

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I wasn't talking about SI:7, which would NOT at all be a civilian organization due it it's association with Stormwind's military structure.

but that bold bit just makes it impossible to continue this discussion as that means by your logic anyone can be rendered something in the same category as a combatant because someone deems their activity to possibly more than it is. This is why I find the handling of Azerite from a scientific standpoint is just retarded. Unknown substance is discovered and with NO testing or study is dubbed possible super weapon material that everyone handling is scrambling for... and the only people who are aware of this possibly blew themselves up and destroyed their notes.

You still stick to one point and ignore the others. Sylvanas herself said that this would change everything. Also I never equalized combatants and other missionaries. My points a) to f) as a whole make the practice a non civilian one. All of them combined. Also it's a mineral that when you touch it you get a feeling you can do everything in the world, what would Sylvanas do with it?

They are no civilians. Civilians don't take part in stuff like this.

[mickybrighteyes]

Do you have any evidence they were found trespassing on a sovereign nation's mining operations prior to that sovereign nation's mining operation attacking a non-hostile research team camped in the region? What's that you say? No?

how about you prove that timetable of when the respective leaders are informed, when the players are brought in, and when the stories events are transpiring. As it stands I see it happening in that order and the research is being conducted by the romantic couple while the prepatch is warming up. Since you have yet to say site a source proving this and just asserted this idea.

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Also it's a mineral that when you touch it you get a feeling you can do everything in the world,

That sounds like a drug.... not so much a super weapon material but maybe how some people describe their first hit.

what would Sylvanas do with it?

Well Gallywix could sell it or snort it off some hostess'... erm probably not gonna happen with a T rating. What Sylvanas could do? well since we outside the story are gifted with plot-sight... it's actually a material with untold potential so who knows. It's a fucked up way of pushing the story forward with how badly the author is fumbling this. Saronite didn't even get this kind of push immediately after it was discovered.

They are no civilians. Civilians don't take part in stuff like this.

I just don't like how stripping this position from non-combatants makes things. non-combatants and civilians being two different classifications for treatment under ROE. and simply being part of a job or support group shouldn't be enough to strip that from someone. Again I'm not hung up on this idea but on how you're classification has that ONE point that can't be confirmed without omniscience or some comparable gift of foresight.

[Hitei]

how about you prove that timetable of when the respective leaders are informed, when the players are brought in, and when the stories events are transpiring. As it stands I see it happening in that order and the research is being conducted by the romantic couple while the prepatch is warming up. Since you have yet to say site a source proving this and just asserted this idea.

I already gave you proof. The only place where we see goblins attacked is after the Goblins attack the explorer's league, because that attack happens without the league having ever received samples. The only place where we see SI:7's position is when they are far away during the cinematics, and then in camp after the Horde player shows up and there is an entire Alliance base being built in the area.

I don't understand where you are even getting confused. Do you think that SI:7 was all over the goblin camp and then just stood around when the goblins walked over to attack the league?

[Steampunkette]

*Alliance does something pretty clearly wrong based on minimal information and paranoia*

*Alliance Fans sputter and froth and declare that Miners are Soldiers, The Horde have no rights, and war crimes don't exist*

*Someone points out this isn't true*

*Alliance Fans retreat to moralizing over the danger of the mineral or how the world is bleeding*

*Someone points out the Alliance confirmed it didn't know that*

*Alliance Fans blame the Goblins, saying they should've known that working for Gallywix makes them a target or arguing that working for him removes their civilian status*

*Someone points out this isn't true*

"SYLVANAS FANBOYS BEND OVER BACKWARD TO LIE!"

If the cognitive bias weren't so blatant it might be funny.

Krizzek's a civvie and we have no reason to believe the others aren't also civvies (Except maybe Gallywix's legbreakers). The Miners don't go after the Explorer's League until after the Alliance has started murdering them for Azerite. Sylvanas doesn't discuss making Azerite weapons until long after Anduin has already agreed to do so with Genn and Rogers. The Horde PC gets to Silithus after the murder of goblin workers. The Alliance isn't trying to heal Azeroth while the Horde steals her blood. Anduin doesn't even consider that the Sword might be harmful to Azeroth until Magni Bronzebeard spells it out for him.

Ya'll seem -so- invested in being the Good Guys that even acknowledging that your faction has done something wrong is apparently impossible. You chalk up the Alliance's motivations as justifications, events that happen hours or days later as justifications for previous immoral actions, or information that characters aren't acting on because they don't have it as vindication.

At least the "Sylvanas Fanboys" acknowledge her wrongdoing as they try to dissect her motivations and actions. Ya'll are just impossible to talk to.

[Darkguyver2020]

Seven year member and you still type like a 12 year old? Not going to use the "R" word here but it sure would fit unless you really are that young. A video game fantasy world might seem black and white but real life unfortunately is not. Most people are idiots now that's a fact not an opinion. Sorry for bad english.

Username checks out. You're on the wrong website to be preaching your contrived SJW crap.

[Broken Fox]

Why is it such a big deal/surprise if the Horde kills Alliance forces spying on their mining operation? You’re aware the two factions are enemies that hate each other?

[Zulkhan]

I'm saying it's pretty clear the miners are not civilians.

Then I guess that for you peons and laborers are combatants too? Because I'm not even arguing these people are utterly "innocent" since even the civilians are not innocent when these are involved in military operations but saying that "miners aren't civilians" is patently hilarious. And I guess it sounds all the more funny when, on the other hand, we hear the claim that SI:7 scouts are not combatants. Like, lel. Considered the bloodlust they show when they try to kill the Horde player, they sure as hell look combat-ready enough.

None of us went into the Horde camp to fight anyone. We confronted goblins who were mining a (potentially fatal) wound in the world we all have to live on - that wound cannot be claimed by one faction or the other because it affects all of us. And all of us should be stepping lightly around it until we figure out how to heal it. If ANY Horde want to be seen as responsible citizens of Azeroth, they should be stopping what the Goblins are doing so the Alliance doesn't have to.

In fact they went there to spy and gather intel while trepassing into Horde-claimed territory without permission and without the Horde having knowledge of these movements. Totally the trasparent behavior of someone who has nothing but the world's fate in mind and wants to "cooperate" in doing some greater good stuff.

[steelballfc]

Really? What's the Horde's point of existence in WoW for you? Pissing on the Alliance for the sake of it? No wonder so many of you seem to suffer from some terrible victim complex of sort.

the fact that the "new-horde" is build because alliance mistakes is staggering.

[tibblaye]

i play mostly horde with a few alliance alts .... i dont like trolls night elves and few other races but i dont hate the alliance i hate certain characters though

[Feanoro]

If the cognitive bias weren't so blatant it might be funny.

Says the champion of the poor oppressed undead, who says it's good to kill people if you then raise them.

At least the "Sylvanas Fanboys" acknowledge her wrongdoing

Thanks, I needed that laugh.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

In fact they went there to spy and gather intel while trepassing into Horde-claimed territory without permission and without the Horde having knowledge of these movements. Totally the trasparent behavior of someone who has nothing but the world's fate in mind and wants to "cooperate" in doing some greater good stuff.

The Horde does not get to "claim" a wound that threatens the world we all have to live on. Especially when they are exploiting it rather than trying to heal it. And given that the wound threatens all of us, we all have a right to say "STOP PICKING AT THE WOUND AND BACK OFF TILL WE KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING!" That's before we even get to the part where the goblins are (predictably) hoping to turn the stuff into super weapons for Sylvanas to use against Stormwind.

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*Alliance does something pretty clearly wrong based on minimal information and paranoia*

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

One Queen to rule them all
One Queen to find them
One Queen to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them

[Friendlyimmolation]

The Horde does not get to "claim" a wound that threatens the world we all have to live on. Especially when they are exploiting it rather than trying to heal it. And given that the wound threatens all of us, we all have a right to say "STOP PICKING AT THE WOUND AND BACK OFF TILL WE KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING!" That's before we even get to the part where the goblins are (predictably) hoping to turn the stuff into super weapons for Sylvanas to use against Stormwind.

That is some Tasty hypocrisy right there, nothing new I suppose. "We get to decide what they have the rights to do! Skree!"

Perpetually playing victim would be boring after awhile no?

Edit: Low effort lord of the rings knock off ftw.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

That is some Tasty hypocrisy right there, nothing new I suppose. "We get to decide what they have the rights to do! Skree!"

Perpetually playing victim would be boring after awhile no?

Nonsense. If we live on the planet, and the planet gets stabbed with a giant sword that could be killing it, then of course we have a say in what happens to the wound. I doubt even you can believe otherwise, but you're permanently stuck in Sylvanas-apologist mode so I won't expect you to acknowledge this.