I expect M+ participation to drop off hard in BfA.

[Wvvtayy]

Really?

It was running for a week before it was even announced. I actually liked that change...

Too bad, no one cares what you liked.

[tru]

M+ 5 ppl....vs Raids 10 + ppl... yea its not going anywhere.

[Kikazz]

Heroic is puggable, so there's no reason you CANT raid, but for the tiny minority that doesn't want to for whatever reason I guess it's not as much of an issue, but the nerf to Titanforge chances I imagine will make people get bored pretty quickly once they're fully geared.

Yes it may be pug gable, but the ridiculous standards, of Ahead of Curve required for it in group finder, or the idiots who say, well make your own group(when you dont know the fights),

couple that with some people only playing for an hour or two tops a day, sometimes less due to family or responsibilities,
the nerf was a slap in the face to the Casual and a buff to the Hardcore who complained about Johnny 2 Shoes having 950 Raid Finder titanforged pieces.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I will find some way to be negtive. Just give me a little time.. or... I am sure you will post about it in 20 min or so OP..

[McFuu]

Too bad, no one cares what you liked.

Wow so much edge, who hurt you as a child?

[Kalisandra]

But you could get tier gear just by running dungeons, professions netted you quite the good gear if I recall as well.

You couldn't build full tier sets without raiding. Also, while professions did indeed give good gear, it was only in a couple of slots per raid tier, and after Naxx the recipes were all in raids, as were the required materials. IME by the time this stuff was up for sale at affordable prices so non-raiders could get it, that tier was way on farm and about to be non-current. The best non-raiding source of gear was arenas. Do your 10 a week, buy a piece of gear every week or two.

Which makes it all the more puzzling to me to say BfA will be raid or die. Raids are forced personal loot so most players will gear up slower in them.

Personal for most raiders means they get most of their gear at least as fast, but find it harder to fill out sets. So, the non-mythic raiders won't care until the raid's on farm and then they'll start yelling.

Tier sets are gone so that's one major incentive that doesn't exist anymore. M+ can drop up to 3 items in your chest which is more than what you're likely to get in a single Uldir run, and these M+ items are slanted towards Azerite and weapons as well. Warfronts drop reasonably decent gear. Islands are the best source of AP. Like, how is this in any way comparable to expansions like Cata or WoD where pretty much the only way to progress in PvE was to raid once you were past random Heroics?

Not at all. I agree that this is not raid-or-die at all. It's also not early MoP's "do dailies AND raid or die", thank the light.

[xpose]

yay for endless content never feeling like you reach a goal. Terrible design and content

Goals in Mythic + are entirely personal. If you feel like there's no goal in it then thats your problem.

[Aphrel]

Since there doesnt seem to be any carrot for doing higher m+ i suspect ppl will only do as high as they need to get the best rewards in the weekly cache. This is something im was already dissapointed with in legion, there simply isnt any real reason to push for high m+. The tinyc hance of a big titanforge is simply to low compared to the easy gear you get from raiding mythic.

Participation will probobly be similar to what weve seen in the later patches of legion (after the initial brutal ap farm was over).

[xpose]

If the titanforging and warforged chances drop significantly we will see for sure dropped participation.

No you wont, because its still a better way to gear then just raiding alone and provides the casuals a way to have end game content. Titanforging will have little impact on the participation.

[Delekii]

I expect M+ participation to increase as a percentage of total population; it's easier to get in at the ground floor now that people know what it is rather than trying to play catch up.

The real questionmark is what will the total population of the game be in such a lackluster expansion.

[Raiju]

Really?

It was running for a week before it was even announced. I actually liked that change...

Tank threat change was fine and not really any deal in a balanced group in start of expansion gear. Problems arise later in expansion when dps outscale the tank (as we saw beautifully in legion when they had to nerf skittish as it become ridiculous, after initially being a nonaffix), as well as in any group where the tank is noticeably undergeared compared to dps such as what happens frequently in any pug content.

[McFuu]

Tank threat change was fine and not really any deal in a balanced group in start of expansion gear. Problems arise later in expansion when dps outscale the tank (as we saw beautifully in legion when they had to nerf skittish as it become ridiculous, after initially being a nonaffix), as well as in any group where the tank is noticeably undergeared compared to dps such as what happens frequently in any pug content.

Well, I understand all of that, but it wasn't the end of the world. Just threat mitigation tools needed to be used.

Really the biggest issue was during AOE. If you have an AOE class that tends to lean heavily into one mob, like Rogue, you'll have to manage it.

[Sail]

How about M+ will as a way of means to get gear for people that don't (want to or can't) raid?

I am still on edge how I feel about this, but I understand the reason for it. For a long time there has been a calling to gear outside of raid (similar to LFR being implemented beyond just wanting to "see story").
At the end of the day, I don't agree with the ability to gear to the bleeding edge from running dungeons...but that is my $0.02.

[Raiju]

Well, I understand all of that, but it wasn't the end of the world. Just threat mitigation tools needed to be used.

Really the biggest issue was during AOE. If you have an AOE class that tends to lean heavily into one mob, like Rogue, you'll have to manage it.

It may not have been, but now we'll see the same situation with less than 50% of the threat. I haven't tried it since they supposedly dialed it back a bit, but it wouldn't take much of a tweak to bring it to a more reasonable level while still keeping the MD's value for mass grouping.

[brbshower]

Make a poll.

Your reasons to play a DPS are wildly unappealing, it seems like DPS either isn't really your main role despite you saying it is, or that you are new to the game, or that you are, simply speaking, bad at doing DPS and have to resort to "but it went down, did it? so my DPS was fine" to justify your place in a group. DPS that does not go balls to the wall to max damage is a bad DPS. Sure, you have to live and do mechanics, totally, but maxing damage is why you DPS at all.

To counter your obviously poor attempt at saying your opinion is better than my opinion: 1. It is my main spec 2. I'm not new to the game, been here since the end of vanilla 3. My guild(with myself included) has had a full clear on mythic of all raid content this expansion 4. I'm regularly in the top 3 on the damage/dps meters.

Now that that's out of the way: I will concede that all of this is just opinion, both of our reasons. At the end of the day though, to me it doesn't matter if I'm the #1 dps or the #10, a dead boss is a dead boss. That's not to say I don't try, b/c I always try to be #1 on the meters but in the end I look at the entire raid group as a whole, not my personal success. Everything you said in your OP was all about you, your performance, your personal experiences...but at the end of the day this isn't a solo game. What you can personally do is only going to get you so far. Also, your entire post was one big "QQ b/c I can't cruise control easy mode every M+ now". How about be a good dps, adjust to the tank threat changes, and stop crying about it. If you can't pull top dps w/o pulling off of the tank then you need to find a new role.

I'm not sure why you have such a problem with the change when top guilds are saying it doesn't make 1 noticeable difference on beta. Only bad players are going to pull off of the tank. If you're not bad, stop crying. If you're worried about bad players in your group pulling threat, run with your guild. /thread

[HyperJay]

Why do I think this? There's a number of contributing factors

1. As I've mentioned before, the massive nerf to tank threat gen, making it so that every week feels like skittish week.

2. Massive nerfs to the aoe capabilities of most specs also making them more tedious and difficult.

And the biggest reason of all...

3. Massive nerf to titanforging chances, making repeat runs of high level keys not at all worth it because heroic raids are easier than +15s, drop WAY more gear, and drop better gear. Since farming them will no longer be worthwhile outside of the first few lockouts of a new tier, almost everybody will simply do one per week for the chest and that's it.

Edit: Since people can't read, I'm going to clarify this here. The point I'm making about the thread isn't about how much you or I personally enjoy M+, I'm sure a lot of people on here love the changes, but keep in mind the people who post here tend to be far better at the game than 99% of people. The thread is about overall participation within the playerbase dropping off. Ghostcrawler said it himself in regards to the Cataclysm heroics being hard then subsequently nerfed. When content is too hard for people, most people don't "git gud", they simply quit the game or don't do the difficult content.

Mythic + may drop Azerite gear with better upgrades than raid gear, have better trinkets, more readily farmable than Heroic Raids and offers a decent short time challenge other than Mythic Raids. Also the only titanforging real nerf was that Head Shoulder and Chest cant since OP Azerite.

Tank Threat and AOE Nerf counter each other. Also the nerf is not much, play a Warlock, Monk, Warrior, Hunter, or (hopefully now) SPriests.

[exochaft]

Tank Threat and AOE Nerf counter each other. Also the nerf is not much, play a Warlock, Monk, Warrior, Hunter, or (hopefully now) SPriests.

It does and it doesn't at the same time. If we're talking straight up AoE, yeah, they certainly counter each other for the most part. Priority target and cleave scenarios, things start to get a little dicey since certain classes react to different mob counts in different ways. However, this is completely from the perspective of random pugs, as if you're a group that normally runs together and/or uses voice comms, the focus of DPS is either directed or expected so the tank knows where to focus threat all the time.

With respect to pug tanks, it can go any way. Even on non-Skittish weeks on live, I've been able to pull single target threat on some tanks as a Moonkin (and we certainly aren't the single target kings by any stretch of the imagination). Add in Skittish, I've been thankful for my increased armor from my artifact weapon. The problem comes down to pug tanks, as they can be really good or really bad at threat generation. Sometimes it's not their fault, if their gear is way behind the DPS. Other times, it's terrible rotation or execution... unless you're a tank that knows how to maximize DPS output while tanking properly, your threat generation will be low. As has been said before, your average player won't min/max their performance at all.

Do I think mythic+ participation will drop off? No idea honestly, but the potential is there from the masses, not the people that already push high keys.

[Deleted]

Currently, the max weekly chest gives you the same azerite ilvl as mythic raid. So unless the one trait that is raid specific is just that good, this might not end up being true. At least not for every spec.

1. The mythic raid ones will have the highest item level, the mythic + cache will be below it.
2. The mythic raid ones give 20 x 20 main stat, and allows you to use the titan consoles in the raid.

You're not going to use the mythic + azerite pieces over the mythic uldir azerite pieces.

[quite an expert in wow]

Again, that's true if you're running them with your guild or a group of skilled friends, but the vast majority of m+ runs are done in pugs. Pugging +15s are hit and miss right now, and that's fine, they're not supposed to be easy, but with these changes pugging will go from hit and miss to not even worth attempting

Again, only an issue if you are a shit tank and/or people will really mess up with targeting. Usually a skill will do, even in pugs.

[Tech614]

Even on non-Skittish weeks on live, I've been able to pull single target threat on some tanks as a Moonkin (and we certainly aren't the single target kings by any stretch of the imagination).

Either this is the biggest lie of the century or you met tanks that literally press nothing congrats.

I can literally hit 1 button per 15 seconds and hold aggro on ST in legion as it currently stands. Is it any surprise they wanted that toned down? When a tank can kite and still hold threat over dps doing well over 10 mil aoe lmfao...