Kinda fed up with the horde being lead by Villains.

[Zulkhan]

The only way Slyvannas being a tyrant and everyone following makes sense is if the Horde is geniually afraid of its existence. Which doesn't work since the Horde is the open aggressors. Everything about it is dumb as fuck.

Except Sylvanas hasn't behaved like a tyrant at all. Garrosh didn't either in Cataclysm, but his reign kind of degraded into tyranny since Tides of War.

[micwini]

If you think your faction is led by villains, you should switch sides!
For the Alliance!

Also, do you think Sylvanas is seen as a villain by the forsaken? Probably not, because she does everything for her people to prevent them from dying out.

Villains' goals are always noble in their core. It is mostly the means by which they do it, viewed by others, that makes them villains.

[Deleted]

Everyone needs to stop complaining about Sylvanas and what she's doing cause let's face it realistically she will most likely be redeemed in some kinda storyline in BFA I highly, highly doubt that Blizzard will do the same thing as they did with garrosh especially when they can see all of the backlash.

They are probably just laughing their asses off at everyone crying before the story has even had a chance to play out.

[Deleted]

Except Sylvanas hasn't behaved like a tyrant at all. Garrosh didn't either in Cataclysm, but his reign kind of degraded into tyranny since Tides of War.

Well she's ressing horde dead and slaughtering neutral villages. Certainly actions against the new hordes Morals.

One way it could make sense for the rest of the horde to follow these extreme measures is to ensure survival against a hostile faction. Which it's not since the Horde started it.

[SleepsAtDay]

If you think your faction is led by villains, you should switch sides!
For the Alliance!

Also, do you think Sylvanas is seen as a villain by the forsaken? Probably not, because she does everything for her people to prevent them from dying out.

Villains' goals are always noble in their core. It is mostly the means by which they do it, viewed by others, that makes them villains.

A, switching sides is money, which is difficult for some people. Not for Blizzard, mind you.

B, people HAVE been switching, and that is a problem in itself. Theoretically, we are supposed to be attached to our side. Race, class, friends and NPCs, and if story developments are breaking that connection, that is a disservice to the game.

C, Sylvannas’s people are the Horde, as an entirety. That’s the luggage she got saddled with when she became Warchief. She needs to be doing right by the Horde in its entirety, and that isn’t happening.

[Super Dickmann]

Well she's ressing horde dead and slaughtering neutral villages. Certainly actions against the new hordes Morals.

One way it could make sense for the rest of the horde to follow these extreme measures is to ensure survival against a hostile faction. Which it's not since the Horde started it.

The Horde has no inherent morals. The sum of the Blood Oath is "Serve the Warchief". What neutral villages has Sylvanas slaughtered? The Kul Tiran ones, an Alliance affiliate that when last seen was trying to wipe out Thrall's Horde which she explicitly attacks to seize resource-rich territory? As for ressing Horde dead, she herself calls these things indiscriminate and everyone raised past that point is an enemy.

[SleepsAtDay]

Everyone needs to stop complaining about Sylvanas and what she's doing cause let's face it realistically she will most likely be redeemed in some kinda storyline in BFA I highly, highly doubt that Blizzard will do the same thing as they did with garrosh especially when they can see all of the backlash.

They are probably just laughing their asses off at everyone crying before the story has even had a chance to play out.

Realistically speaking, what can they do to redeem her? Barring “surprise, all the quest stuff in beta was a lie!”

Mind control isn’t going to excuse any of this. Too lame.

“I was doing this all for a greater cause” isn’t going to fly either, definitely not for the Alliance... and that part’s fine, but it’s not going to clear things for the disgruntled Horde either. You guys loved Xe’ra telling you Illidan was right all along, didn’t you?

Maybe they’ll try a torture arc, have her suffer a whole bunch at the hands of the true villain of the expansion and fight alongside you at the end. That makes everything leading up to it not count, right?

[Deleted]

The Horde has no inherent morals. The sum of the Blood Oath is "Serve the Warchief". What neutral villages has Sylvanas slaughtered? The Kul Tiran ones, an Alliance affiliate that when last seen was trying to wipe out Thrall's Horde which she explicitly attacks to seize resource-rich territory? As for ressing Horde dead, she herself calls these things indiscriminate and everyone raised past that point is an enemy.

No inherent morals no. But they do have morals clearly. They didn't just follow Garrosh did they. Kul Tiras hasn't been a Allaince affiliate for well over a decade. A fact the Horde would know. Also attacking neutral parties for resources is basically what Garrosh did in Pandland and the horde weren't happy with that. And so who cares what she says. The Orcs and Tauren worship their dead. Regardless of how indiscriminate it is, she still did jt

[Super Dickmann]

No inherent morals no. But they do have morals clearly. They didn't just follow Garrosh did they. Kul Tiras hasn't been a Allaince affiliate for well over a decade. A fact the Horde would know. Also attacking neutral parties for resources is basically what Garrosh did in Pandland and the horde weren't happy with that. And so who cares what she says. The Orcs and Tauren worship their dead. Regardless of how indiscriminate it is, she still did jt

They followed Garrosh up until he was a dick to all the other races not because of war. No one left based on Theramore or because of his war in Ashenvale, which was identical to Sylvanas in being poorly argued, but different in that he failed. Kul Tiras is an obvious Alliance affiliate and by the time this was going on, the Alliance were establishing ties with Kul Tiras and using Darkspear for target practice. Nobody gives a shit about Sylvanas conducting standard warfare in Stormsong, especially considering that when you land there as Horde Storm's Wake show up and attack you with void powers.

As for raising the dead, she did get pushback for it, that's what I'm getting at. The tauren are pansies and she has huge orc approval given how she did what Garrosh failed at. In the book they even raise babies up for her for approval.

[Deleted]

They followed Garrosh up until he was a dick to all the other races not because of war. No one left based on Theramore or because of his war in Ashenvale, which was identical to Sylvanas in being poorly argued, but different in that he failed. Kul Tiras is an obvious Alliance affiliate and by the time this was going on, the Alliance were establishing ties with Kul Tiras and using Darkspear for target practice. Nobody gives a shit about Sylvanas conducting standard warfare in Stormsong, especially considering that when you land there as Horde Storm's Wake show up and attack you with void powers.

As for raising the dead, she did get pushback for it, that's what I'm getting at. The tauren are pansies and she has huge orc approval given how she did what Garrosh failed at. In the book they even raise babies up for her for approval.

Well Theramore is a perfectly justifiable action. So really no idea why anyone would have an issue with that.

Also the war in Ashenvale is against the Allaince. So not a neutral party. I'm taking purely about attacking neutral parties. Also other horde leadership had issues with his relic hunting in Pandaland (If I remember correctly 5.1 stuff).

Also kul Tiras is in no way an Allaince affiliate in BFA lvling content they literally arrest the Allaince on sight. By 120 yes but at 110 is attacking a neural party. Playable Horde go to Stromsong at 120 when kul Tiras is Allaince. It's different

Also didn't know that. Be nice to show that shit in game!

[Wildberry]

They followed Garrosh up until he was a dick to all the other races not because of war. No one left based on Theramore or because of his war in Ashenvale,

Funny how you gloss over the fact Garrosh starting a war in Ashenvale caused Vol'jin to issue death threats. Theramore, which was a massive success, saw Baine try to leverage his loyalty to prevent another Theramore, and spurred a dissident meeting featuring prominent characters in Razor Hill.

They moaned and complained about Garrosh the entire way. They undermined him at every opportunity. They routinely disobeyed orders and overstepped their bounds. To chalk this up to "Garrosh was being RAYCIS!!" is pure revisionism.

[Super Dickmann]

Well Theramore is a perfectly justifiable action. So really no idea why anyone would have an issue with that.

Also the war in Ashenvale is against the Allaince. So not a neutral party. I'm taking purely about attacking neutral parties. Also other horde leadership had issues with his relic hunting in Pandaland (If I remember correctly 5.1 stuff).

Also kul Tiras is in no way an Allaince affiliate in BFA lvling content they literally arrest the Allaince on sight. By 120 yes but at 110 is attacking a neural party. Playable Horde go to Stromsong at 120 when kul Tiras is Allaince. It's different

Also didn't know that. Be nice to show that shit in game!

No one in the Horde except Vol'jin and Dezco gave a shit that Garrosh attacked Pandaria. Lor'themar's problem was because Garrosh sent his people in as cannon fodder to dig for relics, not because digging relics in neutral territory itself was bad.

Horde set up the bases where what I described happens within the leveling process from 110 to 120, so the timeline of it is sketchy. The Horde has no reason to assume Kul Tiras' neutrality given their past record and were attacked upon making landfall. Her attack there is completely conventional and are about resource denial.

And yeah, too much happens outside the game and is then barely referenced, for good or ill.

Funny how you gloss over the fact Garrosh starting a war in Ashenvale caused Vol'jin to issue death threats. Theramore, which was a massive success, saw Baine try to leverage his loyalty to prevent another Theramore, and spurred a dissident meeting featuring prominent characters in Razor Hill.

Vol'jin issued death threats because Garrosh told him to fuck off to the slums, which in turn was because Vol'jin disagreed with the appointment and went full ham rather than providing helpful council. Baine messaged Jaina to warn her of a military attack and he was messaging Anduin in BTS, so his level of treason is about equal in both cases. Garrosh did have to deal with marginally more treason since he also had Aethas on his back and had already written the Darkspear off, but Sylvanas has Saurfang twice over go full retard, so they're about on equal footing there too.

They whined to Garrosh because he was a dick to them and he in turn was a dick to them because they whined. None of this disputes what I'm saying, i.e that the reason Garrosh got taken out was because of his issues with the other races and their issues with him rather than because they had any moral problems with how he lead the war.

[Deleted]

No one in the Horde except Vol'jin and Dezco gave a shit that Garrosh attacked Pandaria. Lor'themar's problem was because Garrosh sent his people in as cannon fodder to dig for relics, not because digging relics in neutral territory itself was bad.

Horde set up the bases where what I described happens within the leveling process from 110 to 120, so the timeline of it is sketchy. The Horde has no reason to assume Kul Tiras' neutrality given their past record and were attacked upon making landfall. Her attack there is completely conventional and are about resource denial.

And yeah, too much happens outside the game and is then barely referenced, for good or ill.



Vol'jin issued death threats because Garrosh told him to fuck off to the slums, which in turn was because Vol'jin disagreed with the appointment and went full ham rather than providing helpful council. Baine messaged Jaina to warn her of a military attack and he was messaging Anduin in War Crimes, so his level of treason is about equal in both cases. Garrosh did have to deal with marginally more treason since he also had Aethas on his back and had already written the Darkspear off, but Sylvanas has Saurfang twice over go full retard, so they're about on equal footing there too.

They whined to Garrosh because he was a dick to them and he in turn was a dick to them because they whined. None of this disputes what I'm saying, i.e that the reason Garrosh got taken out was because of his issues with the other races and their issues with him rather than because they had any moral problems with how he lead the war.

You clearly know more about the BFA then I thought I did so I'm just going to accept defeat.

If the horde does support Slyvannas they sure as fuck need to show that better in game

[Super Dickmann]

You clearly know more about the BFA then I thought I did so I'm just going to accept defeat.

If the horde does support Slyvannas they sure as fuck need to show that better in game

No worries, the content will be out in a couple weeks. The Horde in general looks to support her from what's out already, but she does have opposition like Baine and Saurfang for moral considerations. For the most part the Horde loyalty issue exists only on the forums.

[Deleted]

No worries, the content will be out in a couple weeks. The Horde in general looks to support her from what's out already, but she does have opposition like Baine and Saurfang for moral considerations. For the most part the Horde loyalty issue exists only on the forums.

I think having saurfang oppose her and then not having another named orc openly support is a massive mistake. Makes it seem most orcs would oppose her.

[Super Dickmann]

I think having saurfang oppose her and then not having another named orc openly support is a massive mistake. Makes it seem most orcs would oppose her.

I agree. Rexxar sort of fills that role, and Cromush shows up as well as basically an honorary Forsaken, but they're both characters with much less build up than Saurfang. For what it's worth, the orcs still follow her and it doesn't look to have had much impact, but it means there's one more race that at least for a few patches doesn't have a face.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Lets see.. the horde has an undead race that has always plotted to make other races undead even within there own faction sounds like some evil issues.. orcs while now free drank the blood of a demon to invade another world sounds like they might have some issues in good vs bad judgement... trolls were a fallen ancient empire that worship all kinds of nasty savage shit...

The rest of them.. well we can accept them as part of the horde out of circumstance more than principle.

For that reason it sounds like this is a faction that has a lot of races in it that pretty much have chosen to be evil in the past or are actively choosing to be evil in the present. This makes it pretty easy to always be the bad guy. This doesn't mean that races in the alliance are all perfect and goodie goodie. It just means they haven't you know.. drank demon blood or built a civilization based on blood sacrifice type shit or turning everyone alive into dead so they can be raised is some sort of odds reproduction method.

[Wildberry]

None of this disputes what I'm saying, i.e that the reason Garrosh got taken out was because of his issues with the other races and their issues with him rather than because they had any moral problems with how he lead the war.

So let's keep this handily pinned at the top.

Vol'jin issued death threats because Garrosh told him to fuck off to the slums, which in turn was because Vol'jin disagreed with the appointment and went full ham rather than providing helpful council.

Garrosh told Vol'jin to "fuck off to the slums" after Vol'jin started rabble rousing regarding Garrosh's "foolish thirst for war," insulting him outright, and undermining his legitimacy and authority.

Given that this was during a period where Garrosh was interested in seizing natural resources that the Horde was struggling without, implies that Vol'jin took a moral issue with Garrosh's actions rather than anything pragmatic.

Baine messaged Jaina to warn her of a military attack and he was messaging Anduin in War Crimes, so his level of treason is about equal in both cases.

Nope, the situations are entirely different and you're steeped in bias if you can't see that. Baine wrote Jaina to inform her of an upcoming attack, so that she may better defend herself, during a time of open war. Baine's correspondence with Anduin, at least under Sylvanas' reign, took place during a time of peace between Horde and Alliance. There's no proof that anything Baine wrote to Anduin resulted in Horde deaths, nor is there anything to confirm that Baine gave the Alliance any actionable insight which could be used to put themselves at an advantage over the Horde. The opposite is the case in his treasonous message to Jaina.

Garrosh did have to deal with marginally more treason since he also had Aethas on his back and had already written the Darkspear off, but Sylvanas has Saurfang twice over go full retard, so they're about on equal footing there too.

Sylvanas hasn't yet had to deal with outright death threats. As far as I can recall, nobody has openly drawn a line in the sand for Sylvanas, saying they'll no longer support her if she does "X," in an attempt to get her to change course. Sylvanas hasn't had to contend with her subordinates openly disobeying orders to the degree that Garrosh did, nor has she been the victim of subversive meetings.

They whined to Garrosh because he was a dick to them and he in turn was a dick to them because they whined. None of this disputes what I'm saying, i.e that the reason Garrosh got taken out was because of his issues with the other races and their issues with him rather than because they had any moral problems with anything he did.

Garrosh's subordinates consistently had moral problems with the things he did, the invasion of Ashenvale, the enslavement of magnataur and molten giants, the attack on Theramore in addition to the manner in which it was destroyed, Garrosh's pursuit of Mogu flesh-shaping magic, etc.

[Super Dickmann]

So let's keep this handily pinned at the top.


Garrosh told Vol'jin to "fuck off to the slums" after Vol'jin started rabble rousing regarding Garrosh's "foolish thirst for war," insulting him outright, and undermining his legitimacy and authority.

Given that this was during a period where Garrosh was interested in seizing natural resources that the Horde was struggling without, implies that Vol'jin took a moral issue with Garrosh's actions rather than anything pragmatic..

Rabble rousing is a pretty strong word when we never see any result of Vol'jin's complaining. Garrosh still has Darkspear under his command for the entirety of Cataclysm and by Mists, the only reason he doesn't have them in Pandaria is because he rightly considers them a treasonous element and doesn't want them threatening the operation. Hence why he occupies their land as well. Vol'jin's comment is devoid of all detail, so we can infer anything as to his reason for opposing the war. For all we know, he could be against it because it puts the Darkspear at further risk or merely because of the way it's being handled since he'd be losing his council spot.

Nope, the situations are entirely different and you're steeped in bias if you can't see that. Baine wrote Jaina to inform her of an upcoming attack, so that she may better defend herself, during a time of open war. Baine's correspondence with Anduin, at least under Sylvanas' reign, took place during a time of peace between Horde and Alliance. There's no proof that anything Baine wrote to Anduin resulted in Horde deaths, nor is there anything to confirm that Baine gave the Alliance any actionable insight which could be used to put themselves at an advantage over the Horde. The opposite is the case in his treasonous message to Jaina.

Both situations took place in war. Anduin's letter makes clear that this isn't a ceasefire or a peace offer, things that can only exist if war is on going. That and both over in Silithus and in Stormheim, Horde and Alliance forces engaged each other. Baine's correspondence to Jaina was more harmful, sure, but the one with Anduin continued for much longer. The only reason this didn't continue is because Sylvanas explicitly had to stop him from giving information to the enemy monarch whereas with Garrosh he sent one message and afterwards did nothing until Vol'jin started the revolution. Both actions are treasonous, but I'll give you that the one to Jaina is more harmful.

Sylvanas hasn't yet had to deal with outright death threats. As far as I can recall, nobody has openly drawn a line in the sand for Sylvanas, saying they'll no longer support her if she does "X," in an attempt to get her to change course. Sylvanas hasn't had to contend with her subordinates openly disobeying orders to the degree that Garrosh did, nor has she been the victim of subversive meetings.

That's because Sylvanas has yet to piss off any other leader of the Horde, take any action against them or until the start of BFA, involve them in much of anything. The Forsaken almost invariably operate on their own. Her attack on Darnassus has no opposition from the Horde because we don't see Baine and because the orcs have zero reason to oppose an invasion they were all on board with not a couple years ago. Sylvanas did have to do with people brazenly disobeying orders, what with Saurfang declining to execute Malfurion and thus throwing a wrench in her whole invasion plan and then sticking around to tell her how traps are dishonorable in the Siege of Lordaeron, delaying time they could've used blowing up the city.

Garrosh's subordinates consistently had moral problems with the things he did, the invasion of Ashenvale, the enslavement of magnataur and molten giants, the attack on Theramore in addition to the manner in which it was destroyed, Garrosh's pursuit of Mogu flesh-shaping magic, etc.

Nobody gave a shit about the magnataur except one guy called to a show trial years after the fact. The invasion of Ashenvale only has opposition from Vol'jin, on unclear grounds and is never referenced again. The attack on Theramore was criticized, but unlike its destruction it wasn't opposed on moral grounds and Sylvanas has an identical problem of people criticizing her over using the blight in Lordaeron, to the exact same effect on her rule i.e nothing. Flesh-shaping was opposed by Vol'jin on a mission that was meant to get him killed anyway, while he was already in charge of a people who were under Kor'kron occupation, so it's not like it changed anything one way or another.

The number of people making moral complaints on war conduct to Garrosh were Baine and arguably Vol'jin. The ones making moral complaints to Sylvanas are Baine and Saurfang. It's the same shit except Sylvanas has yet to piss any of the other leaders off.

[Traveler Voltin]

So MoP all over again.
Curse you lore team.