How come that literally 90% of classes feel like utter shit right now?

[Frozenbeef]

A lot of it feels like change for change's sake. Doesn't seem to be a clear plan, purpose, or ideology behind many of the changes.

Considering they removed half the stuff in wod to add it back in legion to again remove it in bfa i tend to agree...

Take buffs for example..they removed them from classes because they weren't fun and wanted people to "Bring the player not the class" now they have added them back because it's fun and they want people to bring the class not the player?

[Lochton]

To be honest, in my experience with Blizzard and World of Warcraft, I don't take many changes in pre-patches that hard to mind. This is where we try and debug or give feedback, and yes, some claim it doesn't work but if you don't do anything at all, it is just as bad.

[Deleted]

outlaw feels pretty nice...in pre patch

no idea at max level

[Paulosio]

All 3 hunter (my main since forever) specs feel far better than they did before... Survival and Marksman are huge improvements on the trash they were in Legion.

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trust me they're worse on 120.

because you even lose legendaries then
and azerite armor is practicalyl worthless for anything other than numbers.

Well just looking at my hunter I don't think it will make that much difference... nearly all the recommended 1s just increase your haste or crit by 2/3% (exactly what you are complaining aobut with Azerite armor) and half the active buffs are inactive due to the abilities they apply to no longer existing such as marked shot. As for Azerite armor you have no idea what you are talking about because you haven't even seen most of the things they will provide due to that content not being available yet (not even on the Beta)....

Also lets not ignore the fact that for most people it was many months into Legion before you had those legendary abilities to play with apart from the lucky few who got their bis legendaries 1st. I didn't get my beast mastery shoulders until mid nighthold which would have been about 9 months into Legion.

[Amaterasu65]

Frost mage feels great. Fire is a shell of its former glory, losing PF hit it hard as the depth of the spec is shattered. It's not even that good for aoe anymore. Arcane is legit broken, hopefully fixed in the first major patch, it's just an AB spam.

[Paulosio]

But what is the purpose of all this pruning / barebones Azerite traits?

In BFA, are we basically taking one for the team, so that future expansions can add more?

That's the only thing I don't understand. I could understand the motivation to prune in WoD/Legion. Classes were stupidly homogenized and it didn't feel like our specs were unique any more. There were definitely a lot of dead/filler spells too. But the direction they're taking this game in is a very risky one.

I'm just not seeing this pruning in most of the classes i've tested so far. BM (my main) has a couple of new things to watch for. An extra shot (Chimaera depending on talent choice) and as Dire Frenzy and Dire beast have been merged into Barbed shot you are now having to monitor an equivalent ability to dire frenzy regardless of talent choices whereas anyone who chose the old dire beast talent (most people) didn't have to. And what has the spec lost ? The artifact ability that you could literally just bind to a dire beast macro and not even bother adding it to your bars and lose basically no dps over using it manually.

Marksman also feels like a huge improvement. I hated the vulnerable debuff and I also hated the Legion version of Arcane shot. It was lame having to stand still for 9 seconds or whatever it was before. It encouraged bad play and people ignoring mechanics such as soaking because they "couldn't" move during vulnerable.

As for survival.... it was an absolute mess in Legion. Admittedly it's pretty simple now but it's certainly fun and there is some complexity for those who want it with talents such as Wildfire infusion. Many of the abilities in Legion just felt like they shouldn't be there.

[Deleted]

Wow, I didn't realize Shadow Priests and Guardian druids = 90% of classes!!

For some people spriest is 100% of the classes.

[Mafic]

outlaw feels pretty nice...in pre patch

no idea at max level

In beta Outlaw and Assassination are fine at max level. Sub suffers though because it has potential if only the devs spent extra time with Sub and other specs like Shadow, Elemental and Enchance, etc.

[Mafic]

But what is the purpose of all this pruning / barebones Azerite traits?

In BFA, are we basically taking one for the team, so that future expansions can add more?

That's the only thing I don't understand. I could understand the motivation to prune in WoD/Legion. Classes were stupidly homogenized and it didn't feel like our specs were unique any more. There were definitely a lot of dead/filler spells too. But the direction they're taking this game in is a very risky one.

This is probably the breaking point even for casual players regarding pruning that is happening in BFA. Most of the casual players did not mind with the pruning in WoD or Legion. One part is because like you said there was an expectation to make room for new abilities in a future expansion aka BFA. And the other part casual players wanted simpler rotations and more complex PVE encounters.

Now in BFA, it is clear that they are pruning more and encounters are on that more complex PVE side compared to Legion. Even BFA reward and gear system is a downgrade from Legion. Weapon scarcity and drops is a real problem again so I am not sure which direction Blizz is going with class design with BFA as it is scattershot and lacks focus.

[RamGuy]

I don't bother with alts so I'm currently only playing Havoc Demon Hunter (considering going Vengeance, but hey I'm old so tanking feels scary..) and it sure feels slower. The amount of abilities and the rotation didn't change all that much but resource gain feels slow so I feel like I'm just sitting and waiting a lot compared to before.

I have also played a bunch in the BETA and it feels worse on the BETA due to no legendaries helping me reduce the cooldown of Eye Beam and Metamorphosis. It just makes feel everything is slower. The loss of Fury of Illidari also makes AoE feels greatly reduced but its not the end of the world.

Something that adds to the problem is how levelling in BFA feels slower compared to Legion. I tried to verify this by simply starting a new Havoc Demon Hunter on live and levelled it to level 104 before I stopped. Killing enemies is just taking so much longer in the current BFA BETA-build compared to both 7.3.5 and 8.0.1 in Legion. When you combine this with a slower rotation with more waiting it all results in what feels like way slower gameplay.

I have reached level 120 in the BETA but didn't do much at max level so hopefully the Azeritesystem etc will improve on this. But there is no doubt the levelling process feels slower and duller compared to Legion.


But I can't say anything for the other classes.

[shaunika123]

All 3 hunter (my main since forever) specs feel far better than they did before... Survival and Marksman are huge improvements on the trash they were in Legion.

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Well just looking at my hunter I don't think it will make that much difference... nearly all the recommended 1s just increase your haste or crit by 2/3% (exactly what you are complaining aobut with Azerite armor) and half the active buffs are inactive due to the abilities they apply to no longer existing such as marked shot. As for Azerite armor you have no idea what you are talking about because you haven't even seen most of the things they will provide due to that content not being available yet (not even on the Beta)....

Also lets not ignore the fact that for most people it was many months into Legion before you had those legendary abilities to play with apart from the lucky few who got their bis legendaries 1st. I didn't get my beast mastery shoulders until mid nighthold which would have been about 9 months into Legion.

yeah and when blizzard actually releases azerite armour traits that are interesting I'll say its fine, until then, I wont have blind faith with zero proof. currenmtly azerite traits are boring, and that's the only fact we can go by.

as for legendaries, sure you may not have had your bis ones, but even the bad ones gave you something interesting usually.
I had the healing pants on my rogue as the first, but the fact that it turned feint into a selfheal was way more interesting than anything azerite has given so far.

[Trururu]

But what is the purpose of all this pruning / barebones Azerite traits?

In BFA, are we basically taking one for the team, so that future expansions can add more?

That's the only thing I don't understand. I could understand the motivation to prune in WoD/Legion. Classes were stupidly homogenized and it didn't feel like our specs were unique any more. There were definitely a lot of dead/filler spells too. But the direction they're taking this game in is a very risky one.

Well, we took it for the team in WOD already, most of the specs get their spells/utilities back in BFA. Buff are back for some reason. I think that backlash from pruning was much-much worst that blizzard was expecting. Population is digressing and all this simplification definitely wont help. In my opinion BFA shows good sign, but it will be "filler expansion" gameplay-wise no doubt about it.
There was always people that dislikes changes and features in new expansions, but BFA just overdone everything else by far. It will be more of the same(Legion) without legendaries. Thats it.

[HumbleDuck]

This argument keeps popping despite being completely stupid. Did anyone play beta here or are people just talking for the sake of it?
You are going to gain NOTHING from 110 to 120, no new talents or baseline spells. The only thing you're going to get is Azerite gear which, despite all the fan claiming how deep and game changing it is, it's pure garbage. Not only that, but due to lower secondary stats scaling at 120 you will be weaker than now, making some specs outright horrible to play.
The situation is so dire even Blizzard kind of aknowledged class design (if we can still use this word for this mess) is all over the place, by making a post announcing "big class changes" in 8.1

Yes, I have been playing on beta since back when people were calling it alpha, however I am intelligent enough to not regurgitate peach's ramblings.

As I mentioned in my first post, I am not a fan of BFA class design in general, but raging over pre-patch is childish and claiming that the gameplay @110 is identical to 120 is outright stupid.

[Mafic]

Yes, I have been playing on beta since back when people were calling it alpha, however I am intelligent enough to not regurgitate peach's ramblings.

As I mentioned in my first post, I am not a fan of BFA class design in general, but raging over pre-patch is childish and claiming that the gameplay @110 is identical to 120 is outright stupid.

The game play at 120 isn't better than 110 if we are being honest. Blizzard's purposeful effort to devalue secondary stats and make ilevel king is going to only slow down classes at 120 versus 110.

[Deleted]

Yes, I have been playing on beta since back when people were calling it alpha, however I am intelligent enough to not regurgitate peach's ramblings.

As I mentioned in my first post, I am not a fan of BFA class design in general, but raging over pre-patch is childish and claiming that the gameplay @110 is identical to 120 is outright stupid.

Gameplay is actually better at 110 than it is at 120, so the complaints now will only get worse once legendaries stop providing a smokescreen, and once secondary stat values are so crushed that any haste dependent spec is going to crawl through content.

[tristannarutofan]

almost every class plays the same as it did on live. when i got on my prot paladin I literally just had to click the same talents i had a month ago and put judgement back on my bar the only difference is i dont have his artifact ability.

also the classes are tuned for 120 so most of them are at the minimum crit, haste and mastery ratio they will ever have.

you know if anyone cares about facts

[Deleted]

almost every class plays the same as it did on live. when i got on my prot paladin I literally just had to click the same talents i had a month ago and put judgement back on my bar the only difference is i dont have his artifact ability.

also the classes are tuned for 120 so most of them are at the minimum crit, haste and mastery ratio they will ever have.

you know if anyone cares about facts

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!

Secondary stats are shit percentage wise at 120 duo to azerite armor having none and Blizzard going with a more linear growth while main stats exponentially grow (so that higher ilvl is always an upgrade)

Your shadow priest will never have the same haste% it so utterly needs at 120 as it has now lol, same for fire mages and crit etc. etc.

And while thats maybe true for your prot paladin a lot of classes have simply lost some abilities or got reworked quite a bit for example arms/fury/demo/arcane... and especially talents have been shuffled around and changed quite a bit for nearly all classes.

I got all classes at 110 and the first thing i simply noticed once i got my UI and keybinds and talents right (for the dd specs) was that, again, i lost 1-3 buttons on my actionbars, an ongoing trend since the launch of WoD.

So get your facts out of here and put them where the sun never shines, especially that secondary stat thing lol, do you even think before you write?

[Mafic]

I don't bother with alts so I'm currently only playing Havoc Demon Hunter (considering going Vengeance, but hey I'm old so tanking feels scary..) and it sure feels slower. The amount of abilities and the rotation didn't change all that much but resource gain feels slow so I feel like I'm just sitting and waiting a lot compared to before.

I have also played a bunch in the BETA and it feels worse on the BETA due to no legendaries helping me reduce the cooldown of Eye Beam and Metamorphosis. It just makes feel everything is slower. The loss of Fury of Illidari also makes AoE feels greatly reduced but its not the end of the world.

Something that adds to the problem is how levelling in BFA feels slower compared to Legion. I tried to verify this by simply starting a new Havoc Demon Hunter on live and levelled it to level 104 before I stopped. Killing enemies is just taking so much longer in the current BFA BETA-build compared to both 7.3.5 and 8.0.1 in Legion. When you combine this with a slower rotation with more waiting it all results in what feels like way slower gameplay.

I have reached level 120 in the BETA but didn't do much at max level so hopefully the Azeritesystem etc will improve on this. But there is no doubt the levelling process feels slower and duller compared to Legion.


But I can't say anything for the other classes.

It is worse at max level because the scaling of NPCs ramps up going from 119 to 120. You are forced to grind out high ilevel gear via dungeon runs as soon as possible to be able to do even basic daily quests or be crushed by basic NPCs at 120.

Also the scarcity of weapon upgrades is going to hit class performance objectively and also from a perception point of view of players too.

[Indil]

they fucked up so much

[Mafic]

Azerite armor pieces lacking secondary stats is also the other big problem as well.

In short I am not even sure patch 8.1 can fix all these problems.... >.>