The Brexit aftermath thread

[Mayhem]

I'm not sure you've thought this one through. Ignoring the factual inaccuracies of your argument do you really believe that breaking one promise is a reason to break another?

No, I think that breaking a promise that was not thought through at all and therefore not followed through is not something that can not be repeated. Because where we are right now is pretty much at a point where the promise of leaving the SM and CU but retaining access to both is all but wishful thinking. It would have worked if the government started to actually work on achieving an FTA with the EU right away instead of fucking around.

[Pann]

Imagine if Vote Leave had £10 million of public funds to use for their side. No one would have voted to remain.

Does it have to be British public funds?

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Hey, it's not their fault that the facts side with Remain. Sad problem for conservatives, reality has a liberal bias.

In fairness the leaflet was entitled "Why the Government believes that voting to remain in the European Union is the best decision for the UK." personally I feel the money would have been better spent on giving voters an unbiased assessment of the advantages and pitfalls what a vote to leave or remain meant.

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No, I think that breaking a promise that was not thought through at all and therefore not followed through is not something that can not be repeated. Because where we are right now is pretty much at a point where the promise of leaving the SM and CU but retaining access to both is all but wishful thinking. It would have worked if the government started to actually work on achieving an FTA with the EU right away instead of fucking around.

What you've written is not related to what I wrote.

The government cannot work on a FTA until the withdrawal process is complete and then agreed and ratified.

[Noradin]

Oh. OK you are right. That is not proper.

Indeed it isn't.
But well... there is a reason he is calle Camoron.

[Mayhem]

What you've written is not related to what I wrote.

The government cannot work on a FTA until the withdrawal process is complete and then agreed and ratified.

That would make the promise of retaining access to the SM and CU an unfulfillable promise itself, so nothing that could even be broken in the first place.

So it should be regaining access to the SM and CU, right?

[Gibblewink]

I suspect a good deal of the reason Leave won is that apparently no british politician has had the nuts to tell the voters that EU membership was actually a GOOD thing despite them recommending Remain and being quite enthusiastic for it when outside the UK. That way their only avenue was the depressing gloom of Project Fear vs the bold, cheerful and glorious trip to lala land that was the leave campaign. The title of that leaflet is as enthusiastic as a doctor telling you that chemo is probably your best option when is cancer this advanced.

[Deleted]

FWIW, the leaflets were part of the remain campaign. They don't claim that leaving the EU means leaving SM/CU; just warn about not having guaranteed access and, as @Pann mentions, that staying in SM while outside EU would mean following rules. So the leaflet doesn't rule out the EEA.

Some leave campaigners were very explicit about it meaning leaving the SM.
Some other leave campaigners claimed that they didn't have to leave the SM. This was brought to light very early by Open Britain (video here).
I have no idea why one would be so adamant as to claim with certainty that there is a mandate to leave the SM. To me, the leave campaign was noise without a clear path; packed with unlikely promises and dubious claims. To me, that's not what a mandate looks like; leaving the SM is the path of choice for the current government, that's all.

[Pann]

That would make the promise of retaining access to the SM and CU an unfulfillable promise itself, so nothing that could even be broken in the first place.

So it should be regaining access to the SM and CU, right?

Where do you get this from? I've just pointed out to you that many UK politicians, as well as a government backed leaflet campaign, stated that when we leave the EU we leave the SM and CU as well. You are arguing against a point that only you have made.

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FWIW, the leaflets were part of the remain campaign. They don't claim that leaving the EU means leaving SM/CU; just warn about not having guaranteed access and, as @<a href="https://www.mmo-champion.com/member.php?u=630633" target="_blank">Pann</a> mentions, that staying in SM while outside EU would mean following rules. So the leaflet doesn't rule out the EEA.

Some leave campaigners were very explicit about it meaning leaving the SM.
Some other leave campaigners claimed that they didn't have to leave the SM. This was brought to light very early by Open Britain (video here).
I have no idea why one would be so adamant as to claim with certainty that there is a mandate to leave the SM. To me, the leave campaign was noise without a clear path; packed with unlikely promises and dubious claims. To me, that's not what a mandate looks like; leaving the SM is the path of choice for the current government, that's all.

That video is not entirely honest in its portrayal of the leave campaigners' comments.

[Mayhem]

Where do you get this from? I've just pointed out to you that many UK politicians, as well as a government backed leaflet campaign, stated that when we leave the EU we leave the SM and CU as well. You are arguing against a point that only you have made.

We're talking about that leaving the EU would always mean leaving the SM and CU while British government also argued that they would come up with a plan to retain access to the SM and CU, right? That however doesn't work as you just pointed out, so another promise broken. I don't see how after breaking that many promises, breaking another one would really matter all that much.

[Pann]

We're talking about that leaving the EU would always mean leaving the SM and CU while British government also argued that they would come up with a plan to retain access to the SM and CU, right? That however doesn't work as you just pointed out, so another promise broken. I don't see how after breaking that many promises, breaking another one would really matter all that much.

No, we're not. You might be. But we certainly are not.

[Gibblewink]

That BBC video.... Jesus. If that is the level that remainers were able to bring forth. I get the feeling the guy didn't wear a tie because he'd strangle himself wearing a clip-on. That was so incompetent my brain hurts!

[Mayhem]

No, we're not. You might be. But we certainly are not.

Well then stop interrupting me while I'm arguing with myself!

Sorry lol was a long day.

[Pann]

That BBC video.... Jesus. If that is the level that remainers were able to bring forth. I get the feeling the guy didn't wear a tie because he'd strangle himself wearing a clip-on. That was so incompetent my brain hurts!

It's as if people and politicians have forgotten that the way to refute a lie is with the truth.

[Slant]

That BBC video.... Jesus. If that is the level that remainers were able to bring forth. I get the feeling the guy didn't wear a tie because he'd strangle himself wearing a clip-on. That was so incompetent my brain hurts!

I had to chuckle when the British dude that was misrepresented went on to say "we just want to leave the political union, but we want to continue trading". Almost as idiotic as Dribs. The British never understood what was happening in the EU, did they. I think to this day they still don't understand just how integrated the EU is.

[zorkuus]

I had to chuckle when the British dude that was misrepresented went on to say "we just want to leave the political union, but we want to continue trading". Almost as idiotic as Dribs. The British never understood what was happening in the EU, did they. I think to this day they still don't understand just how integrated the EU is.

The day after the vote the most googled thing in the UK was "what is the EU".

[Fuiking]

I've heard many things about and from the dutch, but that they're colonial is very, very low on that list.

Tell the indonesians that, and yes we were colonial once, cape town, new amsterdam, indonesia, ceylon were all ours

[Dhrizzle]

Tell the indonesians that, and yes we were colonial once, cape town, new amsterdam, indonesia, ceylon were all ours

For a while the Dutch were punching well above their weight in terms of Empire, until the big boys (in terms of population and resources) really found their stride.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It's as if people and politicians have forgotten that the way to refute a lie is with the truth.

No, the way to refute a lie is to make it so that people aren't able to make lies without there being some kind of consequence.

The Leave campaign has showed us that as long as you can get away with the lie, you get what you want. Then once the lie is discovered, you carry on with the course of action based on the lie. You might get a tiny fine that is basically just considered "the cost of doing business". But when you are aiming to save yourselves millions by avoiding the scrutiny of incoming EU laws, a fine is a small price to pay.

It's especially problematic when you have people that are basing their lies around people's existing prejudices. And even worse when those prejudices have been built up with decades of OTHER lies from people like Boris.

[Slant]

Tell the indonesians that, and yes we were colonial once, cape town, new amsterdam, indonesia, ceylon were all ours

Yes, and you're the first dutch to bring up that shit in a conversation with me. EVER! Either that says something about your countrymen or about you. I'm not sure which, yet...

[Pann]

No, the way to refute a lie is to make it so that people aren't able to make lies without there being some kind of consequence.

The Leave campaign has showed us that as long as you can get away with the lie, you get what you want. Then once the lie is discovered, you carry on with the course of action based on the lie. You might get a tiny fine that is basically just considered "the cost of doing business". But when you are aiming to save yourselves millions by avoiding the scrutiny of incoming EU laws, a fine is a small price to pay.

It's especially problematic when you have people that are basing their lies around people's existing prejudices. And even worse when those prejudices have been built up with decades of OTHER lies from people like Boris.

Okay, great, harsh punishments would (maybe) stop UK politicians from telling lies but how do you plan to combat lies that originate from anonymous twitter accounts? Or from a US based youtuber? Or what about Tina from Worksop's facebook page that is really operated by a foreign power in order to influence UK voters?

However that somewhat misses the point that I was making which is that leave did tell lies, they told lots, but since the referendum result certain remain supporters rather than refuting these leave lies have decided that the way forward is to tell their very own lies and as you can see from Neil's take down of the guy from Open Britain those lies are absolute whoppers.

[Iphie]

Yes, and you're the first dutch to bring up that shit in a conversation with me. EVER! Either that says something about your countrymen or about you. I'm not sure which, yet...

And he's wrong too, cape town and Ceylon never were colonies they were factories. (dutch: factorij) which are mere trading posts but not colonies proper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_(trading_post)