Flying in kultiras or zandalar

[Deleted]

"Normally playing the game" used to involve getting flight at level cap for gold.

If you're going to jump on the hype-train and play BfA at launch anyway, Sirbeef is correct: Most of the achievements required will be finished just by completing the story quests and such. But what he's not telling you is that the unlock for Flight will have at least two parts. The second part you can't even BEGIN until 8.1 or 8.2, with several months before you even get to see what part 2 includes.

ding ding ding ding!

Ooeeh! Looks like we have a bingo!

[SirCowdog]

Since WoD, a lot of the story and content has been released with patches after the initial launch. If the goal is to ensure players see all of, or most of the content, before allowing them to fly around it, doesn't it make sense to not allow players to earn the achievement that allows flying until all of the content is released? Otherwise, when the second/ later sets of content are released, players would trivialize it because they can just avoid 90%+ of the stuff happening on the ground.

I get that people are upset about it, because it certainly feels like a time gate, but there's a reason for that.

Yeah, the reason for it is that Blizzard makes more money this way.

The problem that I see is that people believe that thin excuse about "seeing all the content". Keeping players grounded in ALL the content because Blizzard releases 1 or 2 new quests a month is bullshit.

I could understand releasing entire new zones, like the broken shore or argus, and keeping players grounded THERE until they cleared that content. This would be relatively easy to do, especially when the new zones are separated from the main continent of the expansion.

But when you get down to it, the entire setup is designed to stretch content and pad MAUs. It's NOT designed to be player friendly or actually rewarding.

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As for me, difference between flying and no-flying - is about killing X amount of constantly respawning at crazy rate pointless mobs and dealing with that ratmaze terrain just to move from point A to point B. May be it's ok for me to deal with all that stuff once - when I level and do things for the first time. Yeah, it's about immersion, exploration, etc. But I'm not ready to deal with this stuff on a daily basis, sorry. All that things become old pretty fast - just after 2-3 weeks of playing, when main storyline ends and you end up grinding the same WQs over, over and over again. And the worst thing - some classes/specs can't even properly handle such content. I wouldn't be even able to play certain classes/specs without being able to avoid some situations (such as (semi)elite mobs or too big packs of mobs), they just can't handle.

As I described in the original quote: The value of Blizzard's presentation of content is highly subjective.

I can concede that Blizzard wants players to experience the game and get some higher levels of immersion the first time through. But CONSTANTLY forcing players to slog through that presentation long after all value has been exhausted is petty, not-fun, boring, and needless.

And about adding some story behind unlocking flying. It would be very nice, if we would have some "Mount leveling" feature, where we would be able to do some mount-related content (not just some arbitrary rep grinds, that have nothing to do with flying), unlocking some powerups and talens. Your mount would have some "Endurance" stat. It would affect amount of time, you can climb - then you'll be able to only glide. Increasing this stat would mean longer flying. And at some point you would be able to completely unlock flying.

Again, this is largely due to Blizzard(more likely Ion himself) overall dismissive attitude towards flight. Rather than have a more comprehensive, detailed system with context, they just slap it on the back end of the expansion and forget about it.

As I said earlier in the thread, Pathfinder could be implemented SO much better in SO many different ways if Blizzard just pulled the stick out of their ass about the entire thing. Stop refusing to admit that many players actually enjoy flying, and USE it to make the game better instead of only grudgingly being forced to add it as an afterthought to avoid player revolt and waves of unsubs(like we saw in WoD).

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I kinda wish they remove flying all together. The game no longer feels alive because of it.

But hey that's my personal opinion and I'm allowed to have one.

You might also want to try and back that opinion up with some facts, or at least some explanation. Just dropping a single sentence without any grounding or context isn't very useful.

Because I can almost guatantee you that whatever feeling of the game not being "alive" has very little to do with people flying or not.

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I do though see Blizz's point of view too. They spent all this time and resources to create a immersive world with art, lore, people, locales, beasts and such that they want you to actually see it from 'ground' level. I respect that and understand it, I would want my work to be explored too.

Do you really think it takes players EIGHT MONTHS to fully appreciate Blizzard's open world design? Come on now.....

[Katchii]

Yeah, the reason for it is that Blizzard makes more money this way.

The problem that I see is that people believe that thin excuse about "seeing all the content". Keeping players grounded in ALL the content because Blizzard releases 1 or 2 new quests a month is bullshit.

I could understand releasing entire new zones, like the broken shore or argus, and keeping players grounded THERE until they cleared that content. This would be relatively easy to do, especially when the new zones are separated from the main continent of the expansion.

But when you get down to it, the entire setup is designed to stretch content and pad MAUs. It's NOT designed to be player friendly or actually rewarding.

I just don't see it the same way you do, as Blizzard being a money grubbing scheming company who comes up with a thing like this ONLY to keep subs up. Based on what happened with WoD flying, subscriptions and the sheer amount of outspoken people against it, I just don't think that's a reasonable conclusion to make.

If it was all about the sub, they'd just add flying, not the achievement which is apparently costing them subs.

I agree with you though, they could implement flying in specific zones based on achievements there without gating it completely behind a giant achievement like now. Similar to how FFXIV does it.

[SirCowdog]

As I said, this is my personal opinion.

The sky is blue because it's made from blue cheese. That's just my opinion though.

Do you see why that isn't useful to anyone?

But you said you wanted facts? ok Mr. fact seeker.
Here is a fact for you.

Go fly from zone A to B and calculate how many people you see on the way.

Now go from Zone A to B on a ground mount and tell me how many people you see.

Now which method feels more like an MMO?

Hoooooboy...ok.

First off, judging how "alive" the open world feels by how many randos you run into while traveling somewhere is a pretty poor metric. Maybe they're just in the order hall? Or in a raid/BG/M+? Maybe they're in a different phase of the game, or a different zone. Maybe they're just not on the same quest as you. Maybe they're leveling an alt. Maybe they're just server-hopping to join a different group.

Out of ALL those possible explanations, they would ALL still be true even if flight didn't exist.

[Softbottom]

I just don't see it the same way you do, as Blizzard being a money grubbing scheming company who comes up with a thing like this ONLY to keep subs up. Based on what happened with WoD flying, subscriptions and the sheer amount of outspoken people against it, I just don't think that's a reasonable conclusion to make.

If it was all about the sub, they'd just add flying, not the achievement which is apparently costing them subs.

I agree with you though, they could implement flying in specific zones based on achievements there without gating it completely behind a giant achievement like now. Similar to how FFXIV does it.

The way FFXIV unlocks flying makes the most sense to me. You have explored the zone; now you can fly in it. Makes sense.

Not like WoW where you explore the zone; now wait 8 months. Oh look you can fly now by completing another pointless timegated achievement! GRATZ!

[SirCowdog]

I just don't see it the same way you do, as Blizzard being a money grubbing scheming company who comes up with a thing like this ONLY to keep subs up. Based on what happened with WoD flying, subscriptions and the sheer amount of outspoken people against it, I just don't think that's a reasonable conclusion to make.

If it was all about the sub, they'd just add flying, not the achievement which is apparently costing them subs.

I agree with you though, they could implement flying in specific zones based on achievements there without gating it completely behind a giant achievement like now. Similar to how FFXIV does it.

I don't think that Blizzard is "money grubbing". That implies that they're simplistic and greedy. When really, I think that Blizzard is a HIGHLY successful business with a lot of EXTREMELY intelligent people in it who are focused on making profit. We're talking about levels of psychology and business acumen that puts them as one of the most successful gaming companies in history. Do you REALLY think that that level of business "just wants players to appreciate their art design"? Individual devs, for sure! But the entire company's business direction? Not a chance.

I think that wanting players to appreciate the game is part of the formula. It's just not the primary focus. There are a lot of factors, but in the specific case of Pathfinder, I think that they're using the carrot of Flying to not only force players to consume more content than they otherwise normally would in the pursuit of the unlock, but to spend more time in the process.

Combined Pathfinder with all the other MAU padding and content stretching that the game has. It all adds up. Little drops of water eventually trickling into a river.

[Deleted]

So is this gonna be another worthless Expansion .0, .1 or maybe .2. Wod was pretty worthless until flying, Legion was even more bad before flying (because of "all the all have to do WQs" for AP etc).
BfA doesnt look that appealing, but then neither did WoD or Legion, and both were disappointments. Wow is going downwards, with in the end mostly just being an RNG-timegated (or money) facebook game.

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I don't think that Blizzard is "money grubbing". That implies that they're simplistic and greedy. When really, I think that Blizzard is a HIGHLY successful business with a lot of EXTREMELY intelligent people in it who are focused on making profit. We're talking about levels of psychology and business acumen that puts them as one of the most successful gaming companies in history. Do you REALLY think that that level of business "just wants players to appreciate their art design"? Individual devs, for sure! But the entire company's business direction? Not a chance.

I think that wanting players to appreciate the game is part of the formula. It's just not the primary focus. There are a lot of factors, but in the specific case of Pathfinder, I think that they're using the carrot of Flying to not only force players to consume more content than they otherwise normally would in the pursuit of the unlock, but to spend more time in the process.

Combined Pathfinder with all the other MAU padding and content stretching that the game has. It all adds up. Little drops of water eventually trickling into a river.

Agree, except you forgot to call them psychoapths, because that is what they are right now, like many other big companys. And as usual the big companys forget who their target audience really are. Hopefully the Blizztard lovers will wake up and demand some return for their 'investment' in the game.

[Triptych]

I'm looking forward to being grounded again in the new zones. It'll be a refreshing change of pace from all of the swooping in and out of WQs on the Broken Isles over the past 12 months.

And then, some time next year when we're able to take to the skies in Zandalar, that'll also be cool. After spending so long navigating around the mountains and rivers, it'll be a nice change to see it all from a different perspective and zip from place to place effortlessly.

I appreciate the approach that Blizzard has taken in the recent expansions. It's the best of both worlds in my opinion.

[SirCowdog]

Agree, except you forgot to call them psychoapths, because that is what they are right now, like many other big companys.

I think the word you actually wanted was "Sociopath", specifically the part about a lack of conscience. Which is the behavior that many large corporations exhibit when analyzed at a psychological level. It's because they're not just a single person, but a conglomeration of many people. But I think analyzing a corporation as an individual is a mistake. However, I'll leave that discussion for more educated professionals.

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I'm looking forward to being grounded again in the new zones. It'll be a refreshing change of pace from all of the swooping in and out of WQs on the Broken Isles over the past 12 months.

And then, some time next year when we're able to take to the skies in Zandalar, that'll also be cool. After spending so long navigating around the mountains and rivers, it'll be a nice change to see it all from a different perspective and zip from place to place effortlessly.

I appreciate the approach that Blizzard has taken in the recent expansions. It's the best of both worlds in my opinion.

The problem isn't so much the approach, but rather the implementation of it.

I don't think many people have a problem with the concept of Pathfinder. It's just the months of nonsensical waiting before being able to finish it that REALLY doesn't make a lot of sense.

[SirCowdog]

They don't have to 'defend' the current flying model. If you don't like the current model, you can adapt, quit, or whine that you didn't get your way. We know which one you are.

Have a great expansion...or not. If it's that bad, vote with your wallet. Or not.

If you're going to vote to not play, then, please, ffs, go away.

Please read the entire thread before responding.

1) You can dislike part of the expansion without disliking the entire thing.
2) Complaints and criticisms are not "whining" just because you disagree with them.
3) Players can talk about the game even if they aren't currently subbed. Telling people to "go away" is just sticking your head in the sand.

[Katchii]

I don't think that Blizzard is "money grubbing". That implies that they're simplistic and greedy. When really, I think that Blizzard is a HIGHLY successful business with a lot of EXTREMELY intelligent people in it who are focused on making profit. We're talking about levels of psychology and business acumen that puts them as one of the most successful gaming companies in history. Do you REALLY think that that level of business "just wants players to appreciate their art design"? Individual devs, for sure! But the entire company's business direction? Not a chance.

I think that wanting players to appreciate the game is part of the formula. It's just not the primary focus. There are a lot of factors, but in the specific case of Pathfinder, I think that they're using the carrot of Flying to not only force players to consume more content than they otherwise normally would in the pursuit of the unlock, but to spend more time in the process.

Combined Pathfinder with all the other MAU padding and content stretching that the game has. It all adds up. Little drops of water eventually trickling into a river.

Again, you seem to be boiling down almost every decision Blizzard makes as one focused entirely on money. I can't agree with that. Sure, they're a business and will obviously make decisions to ensure they can be successful and profitable, but all the way down to the artists and such? You're implying that every artist, quest designer, encounter designer, story writer, etc... is doing their job focused entirely on how to get the most money out of players rather than doing it because they enjoy their job, because they think players will enjoy it, and because it's just fun or simply just makes sense based on the way they want to design the game with those goals in mind.

There are plenty of gaming companies out there that are successful, but very few of them have truly good reputations as a GAMING company, as opposed to a successful company that makes games. Blizzard is the former, while publishers like EA are the latter. EA is a shit stain on the gaming world, who happens to be the publisher for a LOT of games people like, but there's no denying that they're an objectively shitty company that can take good IP's and turn them to shit while trying to squeeze every last drop out of it. They obviously care more about money than they do game design and player enjoyment. But they're successful.

Blizzard is the opposite, or at least it has historically been. Where it focuses more on polish, quality, and player enjoyment and is successful because of that decision rather than being completely money driven. They know that putting out good quality, enjoyable games will bring the players, which brings the money.

In that context, I just find it very hard to wrap my head around the idea that the only reason behind the decision to gate flying behind an achievement that takes a bit of time was entirely designed with money in mind as opposed to a purposeful design choice, and ONLY a design choice based on the player experience.

[WoWGoneBad]

Do you really think it takes players EIGHT MONTHS to fully appreciate Blizzard's open world design? Come on now.....

Eight months HELL no, i dont agree with that much Timegating, especially since I am still working on Draenor Pathfinder for lulz(been gone 5 years). But I do get them wanting to get us on the ground to see what they did,

[tyrlaan]

I really got used to flying in Legion pretty soon. With Argus released i immediately noped out of there cause it was pure cancer not being able to fly. Getting dismounted and falling into lava ect...fuck this

Whew! Good thing you didn't put any hyperbole in this comment!

[hatun]

Please read the entire thread before responding.

1) You can dislike part of the expansion without disliking the entire thing.
2) Complaints and criticisms are not "whining" just because you disagree with them.
3) Players can talk about the game even if they aren't currently subbed. Telling people to "go away" is just sticking your head in the sand.

Okay, but all you do is whine, though.

[Triptych]

The problem isn't so much the approach, but rather the implementation of it.

I don't think many people have a problem with the concept of Pathfinder. It's just the months of nonsensical waiting before being able to finish it that REALLY doesn't make a lot of sense.

I guess I don't mind the waiting so much.

Perhaps if you play quite quickly, i.e. put in many hours per week and consume content at a faster rate, then I can appreciate that the timegating will be far more noticeable and irritating. But my playtime tends to be spread across multiple characters, and a lot of non-core activities --- stuff like RP, or fishing, or pet battles, or going back for legacy raid items and achievements --- so I'm much easier to please.

[SirCowdog]

Okay, but all you do is whine, though.

/Facepalm

See point #2 please

[Shakou]

Amazing how many people play wow and don't even know how to track blueposts or dev interviews/q and a's.

[Lei]

Some people still don't let it sink in, or they just don't care (not yet at least, beta outdoor content testing tends to be more casual and more forgiving), or it has not been brought up yet, because nobody tends to test this, but with bfa, blizz has gone one step further: You don't have flight points on the opposite faction's islands by default, you earn them by rep grinding and doing the war campaign. You earn rep by doing wqs. These zones are HUGE. You will spend quite some time running around between wqs, packs of mobs etc. My anecdotal experience is that the opposite faction has more lucrative wq rewards (ilevel) than on your own island. And this is required for the flying meta.
So what does this mean? (for ppl who don't like to think about stuff) Flight masters whistle is nerfed on the opposite faction's islands, while you absolutely can port to your one or two fps on that map, chances are those fps will be far from your target area. Starter Fps (naturally) are usually near the edge of the islands.
Imagine if you had to travel from booty bay to darkshire on a daily basis to get stuff done (for 75 rep and some AP) . Where roads are not too safe. Oh and the map is not that flat.

[MrLachyG]

Eh so long as they flying later I don't care. Heard rumors they might do out with it this expac. Honestly not much distance to cover on the isles.

Yeah there were no such rumours. There was always going to be a pathfinder system in bfa, just as there was in Legion and WoD. And that will be the same going forward in future expansions I’d wager

[WowIsDead64]

Except it's not really a time gate. Just like Legion, they don't want you unlocking flying until the content is finished. With Legion, Broken Isles was completed in 8.0 BUT Broken Shore had yet to be explored, so that's why it was "gated" As soon as you finished Broken Shore you officially completed all of Broken Isles and unlocked flying.

Same thing will happen for BFA. As to where we'll go is yet to be known but clearly we are going somewhere like "Broken Shore" otherwise there wouldn't even be a need for Part 2.

What is real problem with current outdoor design and especially Argus-like no-flying forever locations - is that they're designed without flying in mind in a first place. I.e. if Blizzard would really want to implement real compromise between flying and no-flying - they would design outdoor the way, that will make proper implementation of flying easier. For example according to what I see, core problem with delaying flying till some later patch - is that Blizzard want to add some stuff in that patch (poor excuse, yeah, as Broken Shore isn't worth it), that is part of current outdoor content, and they want you to complete WHOLE outdoor content before unlocking flying there. So... May be they shouldn't have been designing content this way in a first place? M? I.e. what is the biggest concern about Argus? "We designed Argus the way, that doesn't allow us to enable flying there". Wut? You knew in advance, that you had switched to "Master content on a ground - get flying there" concept and you designed content the way, that doesn't allow you to enable flying there???????? How about designing it properly right from the beginning? Bllizzard should know, that if they won't confirm, that Argus disaster will never happen again - I won't buy BFA till 8.3 and even then I will most likely think twice before buying it, as it will be easier to wait and get it for free at that point.