Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[zenkai]

Yep. Like this attempt by facebook even...http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...es-course.html

Facebook admitted it mistakenly blocked a Florida Republican's pro-gun ad from the social media platform and reversed course when they got caught.

What it should have said

[petej0]

What do you mean

Exactly what I said. There is too much power and money to be lost in lobbying groups media and all to remove money from politics.

Doesn't change the fact that the NRA likes to meddle with Mother Russia.

[Svifnymr]

Found this interesting

I just really can't stand Samantha Bee, couldn't when she was interview person on Daily Show, and her solo-show is even worse. So I haven't watched the video.

The stuff I've seen on the NRA/ Russia stuff has had some stuff that is way blown out of proportion, though I think they are worth checking into. The idea that the NRA, a gun rights organization, was in communication with a Russian gun rights organization doesn't bother me. The idea that the NRA was in contact with a Russian gun maker and took a hunting trip, doesn't bother me. (They print a few magazines, ad/ reviews space goes to the guys that "contribute".) Not sure about any new information on the "they wanted to meet with Trump at the NRA convention" stuff, but again, it's not really a big deal since Trump was there and meeting with several donors.

The NRA got money from many sources, several of them being Russians. Last I heard they said that money wasn't used for campaign stuff, just the other side of the operation, but we all know how money shuffling works.

Would I like less money on politics, sure. DO I think it's possible before we elect an AI? Not really.

[Themerlin]

Does it make any sense that we have a political system in which presidential candidates spend nearly $1 billion each running for an office that pays $400k? Does it make any sense that we have a political system in which you campaign for nearly 2 years for President. Does it make any sense that we have a political system in which you spend half or more of your time in office campaigning and fundraising for reelection? The big desire is for campaign finance reform and eliminating the money in politics, but look at all the money involved in and around campaigning and fundraising. Look at all the industries and jobs that rely on campaigning and fundraising. You will never get rid of the system we have because there is too much to lose. I dont particularly like the NRA taking advantage of the legal system created for donations, but lets not pretend others dont do the same thing.

*Points Fingers* is all you have?...

lol its amazing what will be passed as credible actions by an organization striving to manipulate domestic politics/economy through foreign influence.

Definitive proof is not enough.

Pizza Gate glamour needed......

[zenkai]

Does it make any sense that we have a political system in which presidential candidates spend nearly $1 billion each running for an office that pays $400k? Does it make any sense that we have a political system in which you campaign for nearly 2 years for President. Does it make any sense that we have a political system in which you spend half or more of your time in office campaigning and fundraising for reelection? The big desire is for campaign finance reform and eliminating the money in politics, but look at all the money involved in and around campaigning and fundraising. Look at all the industries and jobs that rely on campaigning and fundraising. You will never get rid of the system we have because there is too much to lose. I dont particularly like the NRA taking advantage of the legal system created for donations, but lets not pretend others dont do the same thing.

Who the fuck does it for the money?

[Themerlin]

I just really can't stand Samantha Bee, couldn't when she was interview person on Daily Show, and her solo-show is even worse. So I haven't watched the video.

The stuff I've seen on the NRA/ Russia stuff has had some stuff that is way blown out of proportion, though I think they are worth checking into. The idea that the NRA, a gun rights organization, was in communication with a Russian gun rights organization doesn't bother me. The idea that the NRA was in contact with a Russian gun maker and took a hunting trip, doesn't bother me. (They print a few magazines, ad/ reviews space goes to the guys that "contribute".) Not sure about any new information on the "they wanted to meet with Trump at the NRA convention" stuff, but again, it's not really a big deal since Trump was there and meeting with several donors.

The NRA got money from many sources, several of them being Russians. Last I heard they said that money wasn't used for campaign stuff, just the other side of the operation, but we all know how money shuffling works.

Would I like less money on politics, sure. DO I think it's possible before we elect an AI? Not really.

According to the Federal Election Commission, political candidates are not allowed to receive campaign donations from foreign nationals. Foreign nationals include: foreign governments, political parties, corporations, associations, partnerships, persons with foreign citizenship, and non-permanent resident immigrants. Permanent residents, or "green card" holders, may donate to political candidates.

Foreign nationals are allowed to undertake some political actions in the U.S., as long as those actions are not "connected with any election to political office at the federal, state, or local levels." For example, an FEC advisory opinion (the FEC’s interpretation of the Federal Election Campaign Act, which it is charged with administering), established that foreign nationals may underwrite issue-oriented ads as long as they do not mention "candidates, political offices, political parties, incumbent federal officeholders or any past or future election.

Butina was an unregistered foreign agent trying to fund money for political gain through the NRA...

The above makes what she did illegal, making the NRA culpable of illegal actions by association.The new IRS rules pushed by the Trump administration, will enable the NRA to receive funds from any foreign influence for political gain, without any repercussions.

Is that your America?

Will you stand for this?

The most powerful nation on earth being played at by foreign powers, through the influence of the NRA?

Sounds crazy to me.

[Svifnymr]

Butina was an unregistered foreign agent trying to fund money for political gain through the NRA...

The above makes what she did illegal, making the NRA culpable of illegal actions by association.The new IRS rules pushed by the Trump administration, will enable the NRA to receive funds from any foreign influence for political gain, without any repercussions.

Well, again, russian money went to the NRA, which is several interlinked organizations/ companies/ non-profits. If you contribute to NRA-Safety, but NRA-ILA is the legislative branch that makes political ads, have you contributed to politics?

Is that your America?

Sure, it's been this way for years.

Will you stand for this?

Obviously, I'm old and certainly not going to take up my rifle to overthrow the government because the Saudi's, Chinese, Russians, and everyone else tosses money into various money-pools to influence the politicians. I mean, duh.

The most powerful nation on earth being played at by foreign powers, through the influence of the NRA?

You think the NRA was a significant impact in the $ spent? Do you think the half mil the Russians spent on Facebook ads had a big impact?
Really, even the DNC/ Podesta emails were very little impact as various things came to light.

Sounds crazy to me.

Then you haven't been paying attention. I'll assume you would ignore the Clinton/ Obama stuff, and just remind you of the 9/11 stuff about Saudi's contributing money to Bush and stuff. Foreign nationals toss a lot of money around, and they shuffle that money through many corporations. The fact that some of the money went to the NRA, without a direct link to the campaign is pretty lightweight.

Hell, the facebook ads were not all pro-Trump stuff. The intent was not solely to assist the trump election, it was to increase the divisiveness of the nation. They probably contributed to the NRA just so when it got revealed later on, it could be used to further alienate the gun rights movement from the Left.

[Roxinius]

Well, again, russian money went to the NRA, which is several interlinked organizations/ companies/ non-profits. If you contribute to NRA-Safety, but NRA-ILA is the legislative branch that makes political ads, have you contributed to politics?


Sure, it's been this way for years.


Obviously, I'm old and certainly not going to take up my rifle to overthrow the government because the Saudi's, Chinese, Russians, and everyone else tosses money into various money-pools to influence the politicians. I mean, duh.


You think the NRA was a significant impact in the $ spent? Do you think the half mil the Russians spent on Facebook ads had a big impact?
Really, even the DNC/ Podesta emails were very little impact as various things came to light.



Then you haven't been paying attention. I'll assume you would ignore the Clinton/ Obama stuff, and just remind you of the 9/11 stuff about Saudi's contributing money to Bush and stuff. Foreign nationals toss a lot of money around, and they shuffle that money through many corporations. The fact that some of the money went to the NRA, without a direct link to the campaign is pretty lightweight.

Hell, the facebook ads were not all pro-Trump stuff. The intent was not solely to assist the trump election, it was to increase the divisiveness of the nation. They probably contributed to the NRA just so when it got revealed later on, it could be used to further alienate the gun rights movement from the Left.

dont feed the shit posting troll man

[Ghostpanther]

What it should have said

Lol. I can understand that and I think you are closer to the truth.

[Themerlin]

Well, again, russian money went to the NRA, which is several interlinked organizations/ companies/ non-profits. If you contribute to NRA-Safety, but NRA-ILA is the legislative branch that makes political ads, have you contributed to politics?

I am a civilian... I contribute by paying taxes and voting...

What was the point of that? Trying to belittle me in some manner?

Sure, it's been this way for years.

We can agree on that.

Obviously, I'm old and certainly not going to take up my rifle to overthrow the government because the Saudi's, Chinese, Russians, and everyone else tosses money into various money-pools to influence the politicians. I mean, duh

.

So why be all "Gun Ho" about the 2nd amendment? Something the NRA preaches over like its inscribed by god himself.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed

It is very outdated, but still it highlights the importance of a "free state", free from the manipulation of other nations wanting to impose their influence and power over the US. I understand that you consider yourself old, but I am not asking you to become part of a militia...
I am asking why support a domestic, tax-exempt, non-profit organization that clearly wants to remove freedoms from the people, through political influence and foreign involvement. Why would you give them "the time of day"? Especially when thinking that their actions portray something that ideologically is completely out of bounds in the traditional sense, when looking at Nationalistic pride and identity in the Pro Gun, NRA perspective.

You think the NRA was a significant impact in the $ spent? Do you think the half mil the Russians spent on Facebook ads had a big impact?
Really, even the DNC/ Podesta emails were very little impact as various things came to light.

In this I completely disagree, The NRA has a huge influence on culture and politics in the USA. Having them capable of receiving political funds from foreign influences could be devastating to the country as a whole.

One lobbying technique that the NRA practices is creating a separate organization to lobby on its behalf. The Institute for Legislative Action (ILA), for example, is the lobbying arm for the NRA and it is in charge of the association’s political Action Committee (PAC). The ILA was established in 1975, and ever since then, they have played an influential role in passing and stopping many bills; furthermore, NRA-ILA has influenced the outcome of state, local, and national elections. In fact, in 1994, President Clinton attributed to the NRA’s influence the historic Republican Party takeover of the U.S. House of Representatives.

The NRA also has advantage over other interest groups - they focus on emotion of their members by pushing them to persistently pursue their legislators. Creativity to increase revenue is another technique that the NRA utilizes to create revenue, so it can be used to lobby for their interests. For example, the NRA created its own gun magazines, gun shops, and gun clubs across the country. The association uses these magazines as an advertisement to spread its message across the country.


Pressure point in the political process is another technique or method the NRA relies on to pressure policy makers. The legislative branch, for example, has many pressor points that attract lobbyists. There are 535 members of Congress, and they all have the power to introduce legislation or raise new ideas in committees. The House of Representatives and the Senate are divided into committees and subcommittees, where the new laws are typically started – The NRAILA uses these committees as a pressure point to influence policies.

source

In the 2016 election, the NRA spent $11,438,118 to support Donald Trump—and another $19,756,346 to oppose Hillary Clinton. That's over $31 million spent on one presidential race.

We all understand that the US political framework is based on lobbying and donating to influence the happenstance and direction of the country. Having foreign donations and manipulation do that as well, through the NRA itself is another matter altogether.

The NRA is a tax-exempt nonprofit organization.... how does that make any sense? How would that be allowed in any supposed democracy?

Then you haven't been paying attention. I'll assume you would ignore the Clinton/ Obama stuff, and just remind you of the 9/11 stuff about Saudi's contributing money to Bush and stuff. Foreign nationals toss a lot of money around, and they shuffle that money through many corporations. The fact that some of the money went to the NRA, without a direct link to the campaign is pretty lightweight.

Your assumptions are flawed. I am well aware of that. The subject here is the NRA...again...

The NRA is a tax-exempt nonprofit organization based in the US. It is not a multinational corporation although with its various magazines and channels it pretends it is. The NRA is not another nation, it is a domestic organization...

There are direct links now... The NRA contributed 31 million $ to the 2016 election, nearly 10% of total donations that Trump received. With these new tax exemptions from the IRS, their donations will be anonymous, basically hiding their influential money donations from the public. With this news it shows that the NRA conspired with foreign dignitaries to influence the political framework of the US, and alongside Trump are working to further corrupt this framework even further than it already is.

What the Trump administration is doing is pure and utter corruption.

Hell, the facebook ads were not all pro-Trump stuff. The intent was not solely to assist the trump election, it was to increase the divisiveness of the nation. They probably contributed to the NRA just so when it got revealed later on, it could be used to further alienate the gun rights movement from the Left.

The intent was both. To elect Trump and to divide the country in its traditional bipolar political state favoring manipulation and coercion from the elites. A divided nation cannot act decisively, which is showing currently when exemptions and tax benefits favor organization and individuals such as the NRA, or multi-billionaires based in the US.

The extent of knowledge left out or simply excused from existence of relevance, is astounding to me.

I think this compliance and pure defense of the matter at hand, is a form of insanity.

[Stormdash]

The NRA is routinely outspent by those opposing their positions both directly and collaterally. They are a laughably small potatoes contributor to political campaigns especially when you include labor unions. This will never not be a historically asinine point of panic and outrage.

[Themerlin]

dont feed the shit posting troll man

How is it "shit posting", when all I am doing is linking a video that describes basic facts?

I am sorry you got infracted, I do believe you deserve to be heard no matter the context or insults that may have gone my way. I felt that when you reported me, I got banned though...

Next time, lets be civil and discuss clearly with no connotations.

[Svifnymr]

I am a civilian... I contribute by paying taxes and voting...

What was the point of that? Trying to belittle me in some manner?

Nyah, you just misread. "If you contribute to X and Y contributes to politics, have you contributed to Y?" Not "What have you done, do you even contribute?"

So why be all "Gun Ho" about the 2nd amendment? Something the NRA preaches over like its inscribed by god himself.

Your perception does not shape the debate. A discussion on a forum thread does not translate to any other action. I do believe that the 2nd amendment is an important right, and I will explain the flawed logic detractors bandy about.

In this I completely disagree, The NRA has a huge influence on culture and politics in the USA. Having them capable of receiving political funds from foreign influences could be devastating to the country as a whole.

You even mention it, but the NRA is not "the NRA". There is the NRA-ILA, which handles campaign/ politics. The Russians, as far as I'm aware, did not contribute to NRA-ILA. They contributed to a different incorporated part of the overall umbrella organization. Some arms of the NRA organization are charitable organizations, some are not. The NRA also has an organization with official status with the UN.

There are direct links now[/B]... The NRA contributed 31 million $ to the 2016 election, nearly 10% of total donations that Trump received. With these new tax exemptions from the IRS, their donations will be anonymous, basically hiding their influential money donations from the public.

And nothing compared to the money Hillary spent, so what was the impact?

What the Trump administration is doing is pure and utter corruption.

Yeah, it's a shame he didn't use his charity better, Hillary was much more competent.

The intent was both. To elect Trump and to divide the country in its traditional bipolar political state favoring manipulation and coercion from the elites. A divided nation cannot act decisively, which is showing currently when exemptions and tax benefits favor organization and individuals such as the NRA, or multi-billionaires based in the US.

Right, welcome to politics.

The extent of knowledge left out or simply excused from existence of relevance, is astounding to me.

I think this compliance and pure defense of the matter at hand, is a form of insanity.

Nobody really cares that you think it's insanity. That just contributes to the divisiveness, ignoring what is going on in order to paint the other side as inherently flawed rather than seeing where individual acts occurred.

[Themerlin]

The NRA is routinely outspent by those opposing their positions both directly and collaterally. They are a laughably small potatoes contributor to political campaigns especially when you include labor unions. This will never not be a historically asinine point of panic and outrage.

Not everything is about money, although 10% of total donations spent on a campaign from a "small" tax-exempt nonprofit organization, is no laughing matter in terms of financing...

Through lobbying power and cultural/social influence the NRA has proven to be a powerful political force in the US.

How do labor unions compare to the NRA, which represent working families/individuals that strive for better working conditions, wages, and medical/social benefits? While the primary goal of the NRA is to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis", when it was officially incorporated on November 16, 1871?

The comparison is out of balance in perspective, and deserves minimal outlook.

The labor unions did donate a hefty amount to the democratic cause in the 2016 election.

Overall, labor unions have donated more than $132 million to super PACs and spent an additional $35 million on federal elections

.

But compared to billionaires, labor unions cannot compete in any manner.

The top five donors to super PACs in the 2016 election are all billionaires or, at least, worth nine figures. There’s the environmentalist former hedge fund manager Tom Steyer. He has donated $66.2 million to NextGen Climate Action, his super PAC supporting Democratic candidates who back action to counter climate change. Republican casino billionaire Sheldon Adelson and his wife have donated $52.9 million. S. Donald Sussman, the Democratic hedge fund billionaire, has given $37.2 million to an array of super PACs. Newsweb Corporation chairman Fred Eychaner has supported Democrats with $32.1 million in super PAC donations. Facebook billionaire Dustin Moskovitz and his wife, Cari Tuna, have donated $22 million to super PACs supporting Democrats.

These donors combined to give more than $210 million ― more than all reported election spending by labor unions. In total, super PAC donations by rich people giving more than $500,000 topped $757 million by Oct. 19. That’s nearly six times the amount donated by labor.

Citizens United and other court cases have opened the door to unlimited spending by businesses and unions through super PACs, ushering in a golden age of money in politics. But even though unions can now pour unprecedented cash into candidates and causes, they have portrayed themselves as reluctant players in the post-Citizens United world.

And indeed they should be, judging from how they stack up with the richest individual donors. Unions may collectively be able to outspend someone like Sheldon Adelson, but no single union could go toe-to-toe with him.

Source

[user1442333]

What right does GOVERNMENT have in deciding what gun I have the right to use? No, get big government out of my life.

[Ghostpanther]

What right does GOVERNMENT have in deciding what gun I have the right to use? No, get big government out of my life.

Only the right the people and the Constitution give them.

[Stormdash]

Only the right the people and the Constitution give them.

Neither the people nor the Constitution technically gave them any such power, which is why even the NFA doesn't effect an actual outright ban on anything. I do think the Hughes Amendment isn't constitutional, I don't think it's ever been challenged, certainly hasn't been challenged on 2A grounds.

[Ghostpanther]

Neither the people nor the Constitution technically gave them any such power, which is why even the NFA doesn't effect an actual outright ban on anything. I do think the Hughes Amendment isn't constitutional, I don't think it's ever been challenged, certainly hasn't been challenged on 2A grounds.

We will just have to disagree on that part. At least we both feel strong about our Constitutional right to keep and carry firearms for self defense.

[Stormdash]

We will just have to disagree on that part. At least we both feel strong about our Constitutional right to keep and carry firearms for self defense.

Well, I mean, nobody kept any notes if they did. And courts have already tacitly agreed in multiple circuits that broad categorical bans of anything that implicates 2A are at the very least highly suspect, if not facially unconstitutional.

[Ghostpanther]

Well, I mean, nobody kept any notes if they did. And courts have already tacitly agreed in multiple circuits that broad categorical bans of anything that implicates 2A are at the very least highly suspect, if not facially unconstitutional.

But let me ask you this question. If you go to say Canada , how much do you get to exercise your Second Amendment right legally there?