So Sylvanas must be pretty displeased with Saurfang (spoilers)

[Deleted]

I for one find it very weird that Saurfang is gonna not want to kill Malfurion when he was clearly OKAY with us killing guards and shit on our way up to Malfurion.... like what sort of double standard BS story is blizzard trying to tell

I'm not sure if this actually means anything, but the forces moving into Darkshore from the North, which are Saurfang's forces and are made of trolls, tauren and orcs, do take prisoners. From what the prisoners are saying they are civilians, not military, living in Darkshore and you can free them in the world quest. So Saurfang does seem to want to make this victory a clean one in the sense of fighting mainly military, and capturing civilians instead of killing.
I know that Malfurion isn't a civilian in that case, but I could imagine that Saurfang knows that Malfurion has some significance for the world as a whole and he simply has a moment of doubt when he is supposed to kill him, if this is actually something he should do for 'the good of the Horde'.

[JustRob]

Saurfang was perfectly okay with killing Malfurion. But Saurfang struck Malfurion from behind while he was fighting Sylvanas, like a coward. That's why he didn't want to strike the killing blow. Because he would have lost all of his honor if he had killed Malfurion in such a cowardly way.

[Deleted]

you had him with the "it's not important" comment, but then you had to continue. dat bait!

OT saurfang should be gibbeted in stormwind harbor. send a message to those greenskin fucks. he is still a war hero of the horde that has killed many alliance.

...making you every bit as savage and monstrous as the supposed "evil" Horde you're fighting. But oh wait, you're the good guys and we've "done way worse" right? Don't even bother.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

...making you every bit as savage and monstrous as the supposed "evil" Horde you're fighting. But oh wait, you're the good guys and we've "done way worse" right? Don't even bother.

i never said i wasn't evil. but orcs are alien invaders. and invaders must die. the rest of the horde tho? let's get those labor camps up and running again

[Amathricus]

Sylvanas is obviously displeased with Saurfang, but nothing she has done or said is out of character for her, even during the Battle for Undercity. She tells him he can have his honourable death, but honour means nothing when you're dead. I still don't understand why anyone thinks she's gone crazy. I don't disagree that she's an extreme example of callous tactics. But she isn't an orc, Saurfang has gone soft in her eyes. We don't know if or at least when she'll find out Malfurion is still alive. Could be a later tier? Maybe she learns early and that's why she's fine leaving him alone to face the Alliance during the siege. He loses (though does well against a number of Alliance heroes, including their leader, as well as a small raid of Alliance PCs). And asks for an honourable death, of course the Golden Boy tells him there is no honour in dying like that (much like Sylvanas told him actually lol). And they take him off in chains. If he dies, Sylvanas' proves her point. If he lives, she can perhaps retrieve him and make him realize she was right anyway.

Sylvanas sends us to retrieve her 'prize' for Saurfang. Is it the Princess? or is it her playtoy, Saurfang? I personally would think she'd use that term for the orc she's now further broken.

She kills Horde troops, sure. Awful in the eyes of anyone who isn't in her position, but she's doing what she believes will help win the day. And it does, it repels the Alliance troops. Blighting Undercity? Well, that sucks. But she keeps it out of Alliance hands. And killing the members of the Desolace Council? She's killing what she views as traitors. Would you want someone from your city going to the otherside and revealing secrets? She kills the traitors AND shows her own people she's not screwing around. 'I'm your leader, don't cross me." She loves her people, but the rest of the Horde are merely resources. Especially races she doesn't care much for, like the goblins. She has two goals. Preservation of her own people and keeping the Horde mostly in tact. She believes she's succeeding for the most part, time will tell if she's right or wrong.

[Budong]

Is not the same tho, she is plain blind, all she wants is revenge over the past, and she is trying to get it in the wrong place. Her revenge can never happen because it is strictly linked to the previous Lich King, who does not exist anymore.

You assume much. No one really knows her motivations except Blizzard. I refrain from making judgements without all the facts. In this case, as Blizzard has already stated, we don't know the whole story. It wouldn't be fair to judge her without knowing the truth.

[Resentless]

He’s “special”

sure seems that way. imagine talking about human morality in a video game where we, the players, massacre millions upon millions for gear and power

[MyndZero]

I'm not sure if this actually means anything, but the forces moving into Darkshore from the North, which are Saurfang's forces and are made of trolls, tauren and orcs, do take prisoners. From what the prisoners are saying they are civilians, not military, living in Darkshore and you can free them in the world quest. So Saurfang does seem to want to make this victory a clean one in the sense of fighting mainly military, and capturing civilians instead of killing.
I know that Malfurion isn't a civilian in that case, but I could imagine that Saurfang knows that Malfurion has some significance for the world as a whole and he simply has a moment of doubt when he is supposed to kill him, if this is actually something he should do for 'the good of the Horde'.

I dunno because Saurfang definitely would of known about the guards getting killed in Ashenvale. Keeping civilians alive is one thing, and it was part of the plan mind you, keep civilians alive and kill the guards (cause they can fight back). Malfurion would fall under the category of a guard so I don't see why he would have a sudden change of heart. It's not like he hasn't been through many wars before, he knows what happens and what the plan overall is.

Considering his been part of like every war, it just seems like bad storytelling if he just suddenly disagrees and didn't expect sylvanas would do this. Like the dude has more experience than anyone else, so one would think he would anticipate something like that.

[Haven]

I'm not gonna do the role play crap.

Use your own morality as a human being to find out that answer.

Well, Manning was thrown into prison for merely exposing the warcrimes of his country, so...

[Deleted]

I dunno because Saurfang definitely would of known about the guards getting killed in Ashenvale. Keeping civilians alive is one thing, and it was part of the plan mind you, keep civilians alive and kill the guards (cause they can fight back). Malfurion would fall under the category of a guard so I don't see why he would have a sudden change of heart. It's not like he hasn't been through many wars before, he knows what happens and what the plan overall is.

Considering his been part of like every war, it just seems like bad storytelling if he just suddenly disagrees and didn't expect sylvanas would do this. Like the dude has more experience than anyone else, so one would think he would anticipate something like that.

When Malfurion says 'you have led your Horde in the service of death this day' it might make Saurfang doubt. It only needs to make him doubt for a moment, after that the decision is out of his hands anyway. Saurfang is not stupid, he knows what's up in the world, he led the Might of Kalimdor in Silithus, he knows the Cenarion Circle and Malfurion are important for the survival of the world. He is experienced, yes. And he also is experienced enough to doubt a commander. Maybe he simply doesn't want to fuck up the point at which he needs to step in and refuse to follow orders again. Maybe he doesn't know if he even trusts Sylvanas enough to put the world at risk for this trust. And if this is so from the beginning, this line from Malfurion might be enough to make him hesitate for a moment. And after that moment he has an arrow pointed to his head, so he's not getting the kill anyway.

I question Sylvanas's decision to simply walk away a lot more than a moment of hesitation from Saurfang in this case. That better have a very sound reason or it's just as bad as Tyrande going to Stormwind letting her fellow priestesses die in a fire.

[Mehrunes]

Well, yeah, but calling it Loyalty instead of family implies that there was a real risk of disloyalty. That they had some hope of defecting like Parqual, the Felstones, or Tomas. And those five only became tempted, later, and acted on that temptation later still.

Calling it loyalty implies no such thing.

I'd disagree that there are no limits put on the Warchief's position. Good of your people is the primary limit. Starting a war that has a very real potential of wiping half of Azeroth's population certainly goes against that.

Wiping the Alliance half of Azeroth's population would be very good for the Horde. The eternal thorn in their side gone forever. And the only source of power structure of the Horde we have is the Blood Oath of the Horde. It puts no limits on the Warchief and demands absolute obedience towards the Warchief from the Horde's members. It even explicitly calls them tools (of Warchief's desire). If the most fundamental law of the Horde (as the Blood Oath has been called by NPCs) outright refers to the subjects of the Warchief as "tools" it doesn't really create a picture of Warchief's position being limited.

I wouldn't call Genn's attack on Sylvanas's fleet unjustified or done over delusions. The Alliance had all the reasons to believe they've been betrayed at the Broken Shore, and lack of any action from the Warchief to clarify this, only served to strengthen those beliefs. I'm pretty sure Sylvanas was aware of the consequences of her inaction after the battle. While Genn and Rogers should be held accountable, I don't think it justifies war over diplomatic action, especially that despite Legion being defeated, Azeroth is dying.

Attack against the Forsaken fleet and the Warchief of the Horde most certainly warrants a military response. The only way the Alliance could have went further than that would have been a direct attack against one of the Horde's capital cities. And the Alliance had zero reasons to believe they were betrayed. The spaceships that bombarded the Horde and caused them to retreat (their arrival and subsequent firing at the Horde's position are the last scripted events before the cinematic triggers).

Furthermore, given how the Horde side had active portals with constant demon reinforcements, when Alliance boarded their gunship, they had the perfect aerial view of the entire battlefield, which would have included the Horde side swarming with demons. Hell, they saw demons arriving at the edge where Sylvanas' archers were (and they were the Horde's back line) immediately after the Horde's retreat.

Finally, the Horde likes being alive and having a world. Sylvanas more than anyone else, given her experiences after her suicide. Because the factions didn't know the fight at Broken Shore was unwinnable from the start without the Pillars of Creation, the Horde had no reason to retreat if they thought they could still win the fight, because just letting the Legion gain a foothold goes against basic survival instinct.

All Alliance had to base their reaction on was prejudice and bias causing them ignore the plethora of information they had available to them. There's no reason to think the Horde sacrificed their own Warchief just to screw with the Alliance. Especially since giving the Alliance a warning via the horn signal goes against the very idea. If the Horde was trying to fuck the Alliance over, why give them a warning?

Sylvanas uses a fallacious argument of "if we don't, then they will" to justify extraction and weaponizing of Azerite (quickening the world's demise), as well as the War of Thorns, knowing very well that Alliance will retaliate against her people. She also shows a total lack of understanding of/disregard for Night Elven culture and attitudes, showing that she's either out for blood or acted without proper intelligence. So yes, she's either abusing her power or is simply stupid and unfit for the position.

Given Alliance's track record of attacking the Horde over complete bullshit even during an ongoing apocalypse (be it an undead one or a demon one), they deserve zero trust whatsoever. Even if Anduin desired peace, Genn and Rogers proved Anduin can't control his people and their anti-Horde tendencies. And the thing is, Anduin's desire for peace is a crock of shit. If his desire for peace was actually genuine, he'd punish Genn and Rogers for crimes against peace. Or, at the very least, he wouldn't have brought Genn to the Gathering (that he explicitly told Sylvanas isn't even an attempt at peace) to parade his unpunished ass right in front of Sylvanas.

I suspect Sylvanas going even more crazy and becoming Garosh 2.0 and Saurfang taking over the Horde. Because in all honesty I wanted to follow Saurfang after Stormwind.

If you wanted to follow Saurfang after Stormwind, i.e. after he decided to shit on the most fundamental Orc values and honor (which makes him a hypocrite) and mope in an Alliance prison rather than fulfill his obligation towards the Orcs of whom he's the leader, the Alliance is there for you. After his antics in BfA even Baine is a better Warchief material than Saurfang. And Baine leaked confidential military information to the Alliance.

i never said i wasn't evil. but orcs are alien invaders. and invaders must die. the rest of the horde tho? let's get those labor camps up and running again

Most of Alliance races are aliens that took land from indigenous Trolls.

[Lilija]

If you wanted to follow Saurfang after Stormwind, i.e. after he decided to shit on the most fundamental Orc values and honor (which makes him a hypocrite) and mope in an Alliance prison rather than fulfill his obligation towards the Orcs of whom he's the leader, the Alliance is there for you. After his antics in BfA even Baine is a better Warchief material than Saurfang. And Baine leaked confidential military information to the Alliance.

That is called being real, being conflicted. There is a conflict between his loyalty towards the Warchief and her doing everything against what Orc honor stands for. Saurfand is reliatable. Sylvanas is not because at this point she is one dimensional. Also, maybe I've missed something but it isn't really implied that Saurfang stays in the Stockades. He doesn't go with us for very understandable reasons.

P.S. At this point it is plausible to expect Saurfang to get back to Horde at some point to take over it or at least beat some sense into Sylvanas.

[AcidicSyn]

Yeah I dunno. Sylvanas would find a loophole. That's what she does.

Oh no doubt about that! I just think that she'd be more likely to try avoiding the challenge altogether, likely by arranging for some sort of interruption, or; if we stay on track to full mustache twirling town; she'd arrange for some sort of terrible tragedy in the form of "a shameful attack by the alliance" to befall Saurfang before the Mak'gora is carried out. As much as I hate it; the latter would probably more likely considering how she's rationalizing things lately.

[Huggykaze]

Wiping the Alliance half of Azeroth's population would be very good for the Horde. The eternal thorn in their side gone forever. And the only source of power structure of the Horde we have is the Blood Oath of the Horde. It puts no limits on the Warchief and demands absolute obedience towards the Warchief from the Horde's members. It even explicitly calls them tools (of Warchief's desire). If the most fundamental law of the Horde (as the Blood Oath has been called by NPCs) outright refers to the subjects of the Warchief as "tools" it doesn't really create a picture of Warchief's position being limited.

You can't realistically assume that Horde would have won without taking heavy casualties and, with Sylvanas's tactics, infighting.

Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.

I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

From this moment until the end of days I live and die - For the Horde!

I don't think our understanding of the word "instrument" is the same in this context - to me it means, that they will follow Warchief's orders and entrust their lives and well-beings into his or her hands. Furthermore, the Blood Oath has been used only once or twice in the entire game, some 8 years ago at that, and there's next to no info about it. I'd also like to think that leaders have responsibility towards their people, as much as people have responsibilities towards their leaders. Leaders are supposed to... well, lead their subjects to better future, and subjects are supposed to follow the leader towards that future. As of now, it's only the latter.

Attack against the Forsaken fleet and the Warchief of the Horde most certainly warrants a military response. The only way the Alliance could have went further than that would have been a direct attack against one of the Horde's capital cities. And the Alliance had zero reasons to believe they were betrayed. The spaceships that bombarded the Horde and caused them to retreat (their arrival and subsequent firing at the Horde's position are the last scripted events before the cinematic triggers).

All that the Alliance saw were Sylvanas's Dark Rangers retreating for no obvious reason. They might have been overrun, yes, but Sylvanas isn't exactly known to be honourable or willing to sacrifice, so she could as well have been in league with Gul'dan. The reputation she worked for very hard has bore fruits on that day. Further inaction and lack of any attempt to calm Greymane's tits only served to prove that she's done it on purpose. Anduin even asked her about it iirc.

Furthermore, given how the Horde side had active portals with constant demon reinforcements, when Alliance boarded their gunship, they had the perfect aerial view of the entire battlefield, which would have included the Horde side swarming with demons. Hell, they saw demons arriving at the edge where Sylvanas' archers were (and they were the Horde's back line) immediately after the Horde's retreat.

By the time Alliance boarded Skyfire, the Horde has already retreated, so all and any tactical view of the battlefield was impossible, not to mention they've barely escaped and lost their High King in the process. I don't think any sane person checks up on the other faction at such time.

Finally, the Horde likes being alive and having a world. Sylvanas more than anyone else, given her experiences after her suicide. Because the factions didn't know the fight at Broken Shore was unwinnable from the start without the Pillars of Creation, the Horde had no reason to retreat if they thought they could still win the fight, because just letting the Legion gain a foothold goes against basic survival instinct.

Horde had no reason to not retreat, yes, I've never negated that. Their retreat was the only valid solution. However, I can say that because I know both sides of the story. Alliance leaders did not. And the only person with authority and knowledge to inform them was Sylvanas, who decided that inaction is better in this case.

All Alliance had to base their reaction on was prejudice and bias causing them ignore the plethora of information they had available to them. There's no reason to think the Horde sacrificed their own Warchief just to screw with the Alliance. Especially since giving the Alliance a warning via the horn signal goes against the very idea. If the Horde was trying to fuck the Alliance over, why give them a warning?

Prejudice and bias which were well justified given Sylvanas's tactics, conquests and how just few years prior the Horde had dropped a nuke on a large Alliance city, after starting a war during yet another apocalyptic event. The horn was not meant for the Alliance, it was meant for the Horde and there's no telling whether Varian or Genn knew its meaning. Also, it was a bit late for effective warning, considering how Sylvanas herself rushed towards her flagship with no regard for her soldiers - the retreat had to be disorganized and sudden.

Given Alliance's track record of attacking the Horde over complete bullshit even during an ongoing apocalypse (be it an undead one or a demon one), they deserve zero trust whatsoever. Even if Anduin desired peace, Genn and Rogers proved Anduin can't control his people and their anti-Horde tendencies. And the thing is, Anduin's desire for peace is a crock of shit. If his desire for peace was actually genuine, he'd punish Genn and Rogers for crimes against peace. Or, at the very least, he wouldn't have brought Genn to the Gathering (that he explicitly told Sylvanas isn't even an attempt at peace) to parade his unpunished ass right in front of Sylvanas.

You mean like when Garrosh started a war in Ashenvale and Stonetalon? Or how Horde kept their lumber operations going despite direct disagreement from Tyrande, ever since Vanilla? Even with Night Elves allowance to cut the trees in Azshara. How about murdering of civilian refugees?

Anduin himself was conflicted over the events of the Broken Shore it seems. He had no reason to trust Sylvanas's good intentions. Why would he choose to believe in a sworn enemy, who's known for, among others, development and deployment of chemical weapons against both enemies as well as neutral factions? A sworn enemy who had no courage to as much as offer clarifications on what happened. Talk about prejudice and bias.

Punishing the king of a sovereign nation isn't exactly a good idea. Genn is no subject of Anduin either, that's not how factions work. If you still believe that Greymane could have been realistically punished, with no backlash, then I recommend going back to MoP and seeing what Garrosh's treatment of Sylvanas and the Forsaken did. They'd have gladly joined his rampage if it wasn't for his hate towards them. While the scale of both cases is vastly different, the same logic applies - there will be backlash, and that cannot be afforded in times of apocalypse.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

Most of Alliance races are aliens that took land from indigenous Trolls.

i mean space aliens. only orcs and dreanei count.

indigenous trolls should have developed better weapons.

[Mehrunes]

First of all, you're moving goalposts. Secondly, you're not moving them all that well. Because they are foot soldiers of space aliens that were then warped by interdimensional aliens.

[Deleted]

Saurfang is like the John McCain of the horde, it's time to put him down he's old and senile.

[Super Dickmann]

Saurfang is like the John McCain of the horde, it's time to put him down he's old and senile.

Baine is more John McCain than Saurfang. He's loved by the opposition, who thinks he should be in charge because he enables them and is a constant failure, and hated by his actual faction because he sabotages it at every turn.

[Deleted]

Baine is more John McCain than Saurfang. He's loved by the opposition, who thinks he should be in charge because he enables them and is a constant failure, and hated by his actual faction because he sabotages it at every turn.

LMAO 100% spot on