Morally Grey? ARE YOU KIDDING ME.[Spoilers]

[Daevelian]

Sylvanas is a fucking psychopath. Fuck her and fuck the Horde. It's ruined with her retcon of a character and all of the weaklings/sociopathic fanatics left.

Thing is, it's perfectly within character for her to let emotion control her. Should we forget the halls of reflection where her desperation for revenge almost gets her and the player killed? Maybe the short story after Arthas dies where her entire mindset ends up driven by fear? Perhaps the recent novel where paranoia reigns supreme? the recent comic where a spark of her old emotions prevents her from having her sisters killed?

Even WC3 it could be argued that everything she did was out of hatred, yet another powerful emotion. Hell, she ordered Garithos' death out of spite as well.

Lets not forget what a Banshee typically is as well.

Sure, you can hate her, but don't delude yourself in to thinking this is any form of a retcon. She's always been this way.

Edit: forgot War Crimes, where she went on a wildlife slaughter all because her sister said no. Yeah, really fucking stable.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Sylvanas is a fucking psychopath. Fuck her and fuck the Horde. It's ruined with her retcon of a character and all of the weaklings/sociopathic fanatics left.

What did you think happens in war, everybody just shoots clever one liners, as all the pretty people play out their personal dreams of conquest at the expense of those eager about their own silence?

People die in war, if their is anything this game has been missing is that sacrifice, everybody wins, nobody loses and we all stand around high fiving one another, mean while ignoring those that pay the price each and every time.

War doesn't just take lives it destroys people's illusions about who people think they are.

[Khaza-R]

I can understand her over-the-top reaction to Arthas, because even you have to admit there's story behind that. If anyone has reason to want to make Arthas suffer, or reason to lose their shit when they finally catch up with him, it's Sylvanas. I can understand that.

I cannot understand Sylvanas allowing a dying Sentinel to provoke her into setting Teldrassil on fire. It makes no sense.

And honestly, if she had assassinated her sisters, it would have made her life a lot easier. From a tactical standpoint, it would have taken out two serious threats to her (with Alleria being far more serious a threat than Vareesa, imo).

I think it actually does make sense.

Sylvanas's hope was killed by Arthas. He made her into a cynical, hateful being over her failure to protect Quel Thalas and all that she loved. So much so that she seems to have come to despise the person she once was for being full of hope. Hence her line, "I remember a fool" when asked if she remembers who she once was.

The parallel between Sylvanas as Ranger-General and Delaryn as Sentinel Captain is obviously purposeful. Both trying to save their home from an impossible threat. Sylvanas cracks a smile when she thinks she has broken Delaryn's spirit and she begins to weep. Because at that moment, she's not alone and there's someone broken just like her. Then she quickly becomes enraged when Delaryn doesn't lose hope. Its very significant because it shows that Sylvanas acknowledges that she's become a monster. She needs to believe this nihilism is the inevitable fate of the world in order to keep justifying her own existence and the actions she has taken. So when someone defies that, especially someone so similar to her when she was alive, she does something entirely irrational and mildly out of character for her.

So yeah, I think that moment was suppose to be out of character for Sylvanas. That's why Nathanos doesn't just blindly jump like dog like usual.

[TirielWoW]

So yeah, I think that moment was suppose to be out of character for Sylvanas. That's why Nathanos doesn't just blindly jump like dog like usual.

I admittedly was surprised when Nathanos's first response was to give her a look like, "The fuck????"

[elaina]

Well, regrets more in the sense that the burning advanced her goal less than capturing Teldrassil which she immediately acknowledges. Obviously not in the sense that she regrets the loss of life.

I think she sees burning Teldrassil as the ultimate "hope killer" because that is precisely what killed her own hope (dying, losing Silvermoon). She is projecting somewhat though, and I think she underestimates the resilience of others compared to a bitter soul like herself. Even the High Elves returned as the Blood Elves, so even in the case of her own people, we see evidence of people rising against these impossible and atrocious circumstances to move forward.

[ryuke09]

I think it actually does make sense.

Sylvanas's hope was killed by Arthas. He made her into a cynical, hateful being over her failure to protect Quel Thalas and all that she loved. So much so that she seems to have come to despise the person she once was for being full of hope. Hence her line, "I remember a fool" when asked if she remembers who she once was.

The parallel between Sylvanas as Ranger-General and Delaryn as Sentinel Captain is obviously purposeful. Both trying to save their home from an impossible threat. Sylvanas cracks a smile when she thinks she has broken Delaryn's spirit and she begins to weep. Because at that moment, she's not alone and there's someone broken just like her. Then she quickly becomes enraged when Delaryn doesn't lose hope. Its very significant because it shows that Sylvanas acknowledges that she's become a monster. She needs to believe this nihilism is the inevitable fate of the world in order to keep justifying her own existence and the actions she has taken. So when someone defies that, especially someone so similar to her when she was alive, she does something entirely irrational and mildly out of character for her.

So yeah, I think that moment was suppose to be out of character for Sylvanas. That's why Nathanos doesn't just blindly jump like dog like usual.

Haven't actually noticed that till now but its a good example of intent being good but execution being completely botched. Do Sylvanas and Delaryn meet before the cinematic? I don't think so but if I'm wrong it wasn't very memorable when they did,

Honestly if we just had a straight send up where there was antagonistic back and forth between Sylvanas and Delaryn to mirror Arthas and Sylvanas. Culminating with that scene after Her rage at being constantly delayed builds and builds until it just sets her off to burn the tree down.....that could have worked. Maybe show her expressing her horror at realizing what she became as the tree goes up?

Shame that's not what we got though..its making me think the Malfurion stuff was really superfluous and should have been cut to be honest.

[Velshin]

But there is moral ambiguity and nuances to the story as it is. Was saurfang acting with honor even though it lead to the burning of the tree? Was he right to attack in defense of sylvanas in the first place? Is it a hollow gesture given the previous acts of the campaign?

If we are to criticize anyone it is the people who are to caught up in hate to see the story for what it is. Those who are so toxic that something they don't like or refuse to understand must be attacked and burned as the tree did.

Well I do understand the reason behind the burning of the tree but still that doesn't make it interesting at all. To me (for some others as well) this is way to predictable because all time time Blizzard been hyping about who did burn the tree for months and months so a lot of people were expecting a nice twist like some kind of third party who burned it or even the alliance themselves sacrificing it to kill the Horde or something like that. So all of this hype about this scene when we first saw it in Blizzcon 2017 went to nothing but super predictable storytelling. But then again I should have expect Blizzard will not write something and do twisting plots with the same lvl or close to song of ice and fire.

[kensim]

The only slightly possible explanation is that burning the tree and the innocents within is justified by Sylvanas, is due to the fact that is what it took for her to lose her hope. The total and ruthless destruction of the cultural center.

Then it is just down to bad execution and everyone thinking she did this on a whim, goaded by a recently introduced character.

What she failed to see was that the more Arthas and the scourge pushed, the more resolute the opposition became. She has guaranteed that the Alliance is now in total war mode, and that any potential neutral is most likely swayed to the Alliance camp.

Poor story or poor execution...which is it? I fear both.

[elaina]

Sylvanas is stuck in a situation with no good ending. She fought the good fight against Arthas, only to have him raise her up as a Banshee purely as a dick move because he was butthurt she slowed him down.

She then spends the time from then until WotLK plotting her revenge on Arthas and trying to keep the Forsaken together. She finally get her vengance and suicides realizing she has nothing left to live for only to discover that there's no peace after death for any undead like her. They get to spend the rest of eternity wandering the Shadowlands; no peaceful rest, no drawn into the Light, just fuck you for having the misfortune of being revived as a zombie by a manchild with a frightening lack of common sense. The only thing that saves her is the valkyr make their pact to serve her in exchange from freedom from Northrend. Now she can at least revive her people, but her valkyr numbers are limited and they have to die to revive her.

So, right after she deals with this little shock to her system, Deathwing pops back up and the wall to Gilneas breaks open. Garrosh then figuratively and damn near literally holds a gun to head and forces her to throw her troops at Genn's forces, who are more than happy to employ guerilla warfare to bleed her troops; troops which she now knows are damned if they die. So she breaks out the plague, because she doesn't want to lose more of her people fighting a battle she really didn't want in the first place, only to get shit on for doing so.

So, she manages to survive Garrosh's stupidity and seems to be at least neutral with Voljin. Then the Legion invades and shit goes all to hell again. Now, while she always talked big about wanting the power of the Warchief, she now finds herself stuck with not just that, but all the responsibility that goes with it. Because she needs the Horde, the Forsaken cannot stand alone, no matter how badly she may want to. In Stormhiem she finds out about the possibility of getting more valkyr. Boom, problems solved; with those, she can keep her people alive, its all good. Till Genn comes in with his "MUH SON" and fucks all that up.

So now, while the Legion is gone, we are stuck back where we started before. Both the Horde and Alliance are still pissed at each other, with fresh fuel on the fire due to the first assault on the Broken Shore. So, when the Azerite starts appearing what is she going to do?

Well, she is going to make a grab for it. It represents a shift in the power balance and at this point she has nothing left but to keep fighting for survival. She has no other option and given that she is a pragmatic, if not outright ruthless and cunning general the best play is make the first move. She isn't naive enough to believe the Alliance would leave the Horde alone, especially not given the mood Jaina and Genn are in. No matter how much they may respect Anduin, if push comes to shove, I think he will find out that some of the Alliance may not put up with his shit nor will they ever forgive the Horde. And thus the cycle continues....

solid summary

[Doomchicken]

I admittedly was surprised when Nathanos's first response was to give her a look like, "The fuck????"

I wasn't surprised at his reaction at all. From his point of view he's probably been told countless times that the idea was to capture the tree, then right on the cusp of victory she changes suddenly and abruptly and his reaction is the most natural reaction out of everyone present really.

[TirielWoW]

I wasn't surprised at his reaction at all. From his point of view he's probably been told countless times that the idea was to capture the tree, then right on the cusp of victory she changes suddenly and abruptly and his reaction is the most natural reaction out of everyone present really.

Sure, but he normally just does whatever she says without hesitation. Your logic makes sense, tho, and honestly, it's probably the best explanation for his behavior (especially considering that Sylvanas explained, at length, her logic for attempting to occupy Teldrassil).

[Brubear]

Why is everyone so upset with the horde being evil? If you want to fight for good there's an entire faction you can switch to called the Alliance...

It's also hilarious how surprised everyone is that Sylvanas is evil. Did you play Warcraft 3 at all? If not why are you even playing WoW

Probably because the Horde has been the good faction from WCIII until MoP, and then they fixed the issue with Garrosh. But it seems they didn't really learn their lesson so now they get a Garrosh 2.0.

So for the majority of Warcraft games the Horde has been a good faction that was focused on honor and eking out an existence, not nuking cities because someone hurt your feelings with witty retort.

[kail]

Sure, but he normally just does whatever she says without hesitation. Your logic makes sense, tho, and honestly, it's probably the best explanation for his behavior (especially considering that Sylvanas explained, at length, her logic for attempting to occupy Teldrassil).

He's deeply loyal but not mindless.

[Brubear]

I feel pity for her, but hate her and now hate the Horde by supporting what is still perplexing to me...after all of the combined efforts of the Horde and Alliance in "saving the world", why the hell are we fighting each other...?
In any case, whether it's good story telling or not, this final cinematic has delivered I think what Blizzard needed to make the next expansion meaningful - I now really want to destroy the Horde for doing this and have the forests reclaim Durotar with not one scrap of green skin or undead to be seen anywhere.
Or maybe I'll just get bored after a month and unsub (again)?!


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^ This is spot on, well said.

The problem is, so does a large amount of horde players. Like, I can't figure out how the Tauren (both versions) would be okay with this, as well as the Blood Elves and Nightborne (this would be akin to the Alliance nuking the Sunwell or Nightwell for them) Even the trolls would probably be a little hesitant as this can't be good mojo, and you can't tell me there aren't a majority of orcs left who would rather not have a repeat of Garrosh. The only Horde races I see where the majority of them would be the Undead and the Goblins (because profit above all else).

So yeah, this is more likely to unite everyone against Sylvannas, not further the Alliance v. Horde divide.

[elaina]

Sure, but he normally just does whatever she says without hesitation. Your logic makes sense, tho, and honestly, it's probably the best explanation for his behavior (especially considering that Sylvanas explained, at length, her logic for attempting to occupy Teldrassil).

That Nathanos of all people reacted in that fashion shows just how far gone Sylvanas really is. During the short story pre-Legion where Nathanos is given his "new" body, it explains that being infused with that life force brought back various things such as his sense of smell, and most interestingly, pangs of guilt over the family (his own cousin I believe) who was slain in order to create that body for him. It humanized him, if only a little, and now he gets a taste of Sylvanas at her worst.

- - - Updated - - -

What she failed to see was that the more Arthas and the scourge pushed, the more resolute the opposition became. She has guaranteed that the Alliance is now in total war mode, and that any potential neutral is most likely swayed to the Alliance camp.

Poor story or poor execution...which is it? I fear both.

Let's see if their #warmode numbers pick up this week (I do agree with your assessment)

I'm sure at least a few paid faction changes have occurred because of this lol.

[Kromkar]

We haven't even began BfA and people are complaining, let us see what happens first, let the damn story expand before complaining.... Maybe she just burnt a Old God... Or maybe there is a plot twist saved for the future? Let us wait and see as the event fold out....

[Vakir]

Why is everyone so upset with the horde being evil? If you want to fight for good there's an entire faction you can switch to called the Alliance...

Because WC3 was generally lauded for breaking from generic fantasy traditions with bestial or monster races. Orcs were honorable and generally their DNA traced to the New Horde was seen as interesting, at least by the majority player base at the time. Hell, even Sylvanas, despite being slimey and conniving, had a comprehensive goal that made sense on some level.

As far as "join the Alliance," it's the same frustration people have when "join the Horde" is offered as a solution for things the Alliance players dislike - the two faction system is frustrating, old-hat, and borderline dead after 15 years on a gameplay and story level. That much more in a current real world that is already exhausting in how tribal and cynical it is. There's a reason stuff that is generally optimistic like the MCU or Overwatch are in vogue right now, and it's because it's a release from how utterly depressing the zeitgeist is.

Merchandise and yelling unwashed masses at BlizzCon is the only reason faction pride still exists. Frankly, when the inevitable con violence or social media death threat epidemic breaks out, that'll be when they finally stop doubling down on such a tired premise.

[Helgrimm]

Makes me feel a lot better for killing horde lowbies in old worlds. There's a much better RP element to it now. That and they're flagged willingly now.

[ro9ue]

Did anyone read Dark Mirror? Sylv and Nathanos ain't good people lol.

[Ragedaug]

If it turns out she is corrupted i will be so mad, that's so lazy

So it looks like the options are Garrosh 2.0 or Deathwing 2.0. I suppose time will tell.