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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    That's just silly. That's like saying companies and businesses shouldn't be for-profit. It's a BUSINESS. It's not a state program. If they didn't make money, they'd shut down. Mind you, our current prison system is absolutely awful. But you can't just say "Well it shouldnt be that way" and expect it to change on a whim.
    It should never have been made into a business to begin with.
    Think "hotel" where every empty bed is lost revenue. And think how they may get that revenue...

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Anecdotal...or do you have a link?
    Link to what exactly? Which part are you wanting a link to? My brothers case and the judgement against him or the states laws that allow prisons to charge?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It should never have been made into a business to begin with.
    Think "hotel" where every empty bed is lost revenue. And think how they may get that revenue...
    Exactly. A prison is not something that should function as a business.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    My brother just got out of jail and was ordered to take drug tests. The thing that got me was that he is being charged $25 per test and is required to take 2 times a week. This made my jaw drop! The judge ordered mandatory drug tests that my brother has to pay for. I had never before heard of an inmate being sentenced to a required bill. Then I heard the worst part. He will be getting a bill for each night he was in jail!

    Now, I am sitting here dumbfounded. I can only think, Where the heck are my taxes going if the prisons are going to start charging people for being locked up? My second thought is in what system is this right? They are turning prison and punishment into a money making scheme! They get money from our taxes, and now for imprisoning people. My state isn't even the only one to do it. There are others to do it.

    I was just wondering what your thoughts on this is. How is this right? How is the states going to be allowed to lock up people and then charge them a fee on top of it! That seems like a massive conflict of interest to me.
    it is a multi billion dollar industry no incentives to keep folks out of jail and as a result we have relapse rates of like 90% is back in less than 5 years. all due to how it is a for profit system

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    They are essentially double dipping. They are not doing a thing where they take it from the inmates instead of the tax payers. Its both. There was one guy who was charged $50 a night for 3 years and ended up with a $55,000 bill. Prison is supposed to fix people so they can return to society. Not cripple them with a massive debt they realistically can't pay. If we had to rely on prisoners who just got out of jail to fund the prisons, good luck.
    Let me learn you a little bit.

    You don't get a bill when you leave jail or prison.

    Your debt stays associated to your name, and if you want to purchase commissary or other items the jail provides during your time, your debt must remain clear. If you leave jail with a "negative balance" and return to jail, you have the same balance you left with. This makes no bearing or difference unless you intend to buy commissary or other items you deem essential that the jail does not provide you enough with.

    I'll use myself for an example. I was in jail for 1 year. I was billed at 2$ a day. I don't have to pay this fee, at all. However, if I wanted more food or items than the jail provided me, and I was 6 months in, I must clear my balance of 300~ish dollars to break even, and then add more to be able to make my purchase.

    When I left, I was not billed for a negative deficit. No one is. You are charged court costs, whatever lawyer fees you incurred, and medical expenses.
    No one is charged 50$ a day, anywhere. I think you need to fact check whatever you read.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Link to what exactly? Which part are you wanting a link to? My brothers case and the judgement against him or the states laws that allow prisons to charge? - - - Updated - - - Exactly. A prison is not something that should function as a business.
    The worst part about it..assuming your bro does have to pay "rent" every month, is that the debt never goes away.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    The American prison system needs a complete revamp.
    Yeah it does. Its supposed to be a correctional facility to help better society. Not a business whos goal is to make money.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  7. #27
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Exactly. A prison is not something that should function as a business.
    Regardless of how you feel, it still IS a business. It's not a public function. End of Line.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    They are essentially double dipping. They are not doing a thing where they take it from the inmates instead of the tax payers. Its both. There was one guy who was charged $50 a night for 3 years and ended up with a $55,000 bill. Prison is supposed to fix people so they can return to society. Not cripple them with a massive debt they realistically can't pay. If we had to rely on prisoners who just got out of jail to fund the prisons, good luck.
    Yeah, I see what you mean and NO I wouldn't be ok with running a scam, which is why my mind isn't made up on this.

    Making prisoner pay the bill on their stay I am Ok with.

    Corporations using this as a tool to backdoor slave labor or price gouge those who already made a mistake BS price, I am NOT ok with.


    So I could totally support this, and no I don't agree prisons are Schools sorry, you get your ass sent to prison because the rest of society is sick of your shit, and doesn't want to put up with you, and short of other barbaric methods.

    Justice should always be tempered with Mercy otherwise there is no justice, however I am a little on the fence here, I am not convinced people ever change whether in prison or out.

    And the safest place for society for the most dangerous and violent is prison IMO.
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  9. #29
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    Read something about this other day on a maoist shit posting forum :

    Much has been written about the horrible exploitation involved in the criminal legal system, especially the prison system. Most commonly discussed are the uncompensated or undercompensated labor inside prisons and the ludicrous profits private prisons enjoy. This is a subject that people much smarter than I have addressed time and again. Instead I want to address the often-overlooked ways in which the criminal legal system financially exploits those accused of crimes and ensures that the impoverished people who are convicted of them are further ground down under the weight of poverty, from arrest all the way through punishment and far beyond.

    My theory is that the criminal legal system functions primarily as a method of social control over the lower class. This much is obvious and barely worth mentioning. I think a second, somewhat more pernicious function is that it forces the people caught up in it in direct debt peonage through the levying of fines, costs, and fees as a direct result of punishment. Further, it creates a vast pool of low-cost, low-skill labor that capital is free to exploit at will. A criminal conviction on one's record drops one's bargaining power to zero, as if for a single worker they have any to begin with. Fast food restaurants, construction sites, and call centers are just a few places you will find stuffed with people who have been processed by the criminal legal system. Moreso, I believe that this is the intended consequence, not something incidental. Not that any judges or prosecutors will admit this, or even be aware of it on a conscious level.

    This is not an exhaustive report and is based largely on personal anecdotal experience. As I've mentioned before many times on here, I am a public defender – that's a “free” criminal defense attorney appointed to the poor, for anyone unfamiliar with the term or concept. I represent criminal defendants too poor to afford a lawyer, although the cutoff is distressingly low, which leaves a big chunk of the working poor and lower-middle class who can't afford an attorney and don't get court-appointed counsel either. But that's a whole nother issue.

    Last time anyone bothered to check (2000, or so it seems), roughly 82% of felony defendants in large counties are represented by court-appointed counsel (it looks like the Bureau of Justice Statistics doesn't keep track of state-level misdemeanors. In some states, they game it so low-level misdemeanors don't qualify, so it's hard to say what the numbers would be anyway). This is usually, but not entirely, due to their indigence – in my state, if you are incarcerated pretrial you qualify for court-appointed counsel no matter what. This is a high amount, but not shockingly so if you are of the belief that the criminal legal system is largely designed to control the lowest classes. It makes sense that they are generally the ones charged with and prosecuted for crimes. Federal crimes are a different story, as they tend to be larger-scale and often white collar.

    This is also not a post about the issue with the court-appointed counsel system as it currently exists. Needless to say, it's fucked. Again, not surprising, because it's largely lip service to the constitution and basic fairness: sure, we shouldn't be making people with little to no education – and very often severe mental health issues – try to understand the complex vagaries of the criminal legal system while their liberty is at stake. Let's give them an over-worked, underpaid recent law school graduate to meet with them for ten minutes to explain how they're fucked. It will keep the trial courts running smoothly and clear up the appeals docket a bit. Rather, it's about the overlooked impact that even a simple criminal conviction can have on a person and how it steers them to a life of permanent proletarian-hood.

    One overt way that poor people are attacked financially is with the burden of court costs. While court systems receive funding from state coffers, someone somewhere (it was actually in the 1970s, I believe) decided that the costs of prosecution and processing should be borne by the criminals themselves. So now, even something as simple as a low-level misdemeanor, such as harassment or disorderly conduct, comes with a litany of court costs – administrative processing fees, costs of prosecution (like paying several hundred dollars to the cops for a blood test during a DUI stop or $1,000+ for transportation if a client has to be extradited from out of state), and even, bizarrely enough, money for your “free” lawyer (unless the case is dismissed or results in an acquittal, my clients pay $25 for my services. Not to me of course). These usually add up to several hundred dollars and are higher the more severe the charge. Not exactly death by a thousand cuts, but a substantial amount to someone living on $800 a month in benefits.

    But we're getting ahead of ourselves. This is all after a finding of guilt, either through plea (very likely) or jury verdict (also very likely). At the very beginnings, most cases start with arrest and that brings us to the initial method of extracting money from the poor: the cash bail system. Some idiot decided that in order to get people to come to court, we should take a chunk of change from them and hold it until their case is resolved. It's capitalism, right? The only conceivable motivation for an individual is financial. The amount can range anywhere from a few dozen dollars to several thousand (to be fair, I will note that many people are released for free “on their own recognizance”, with only a threat of re-incarceration and a potential fine if they miss court). Someone posting a cash bond gets the money back when the case is resolved, although courts often deduct the court costs from the bond. Regardless, having several hundred dollars tied up (and not collecting interest) is a huge burden for many of my clients and, more often, their friends and families (if they're lucky enough to have any).

    Now, on it's face this is preposterous and incredibly classist, so someone even more idiotic created the bail bonds system to address it. That's when a licensed, bonded individual or company will take a percentage of the total cost from the client or an interested party – usually about 10% - and foot the remainder of the bill. Because they are taking on the burden of assuring a client's appearance at future court appearances, they take steps to make them show. This is where bounty hunters come in. With quasi-legal authority, they will find clients and drag them in on warrants issued if they failed to appear at a court hearing. Usually they just wait for them to get arrested on warrants. In my experience, bail bondspeople are (predictably) absolute scum. Preying off of the most vulnerable, their main job is “having a big pile of money or line of credit, signing papers with the court, and waiting for cops to arrest people that they bonded out so they can get their money back.” Sure, a $1,000 bond only nets them $100 from my client, but that adds up for a poor person. Every missed court date results in another bond, usually increasing with each iteration. It's not rare to have a client held on a $10,000 bond for a misdemeanor because they showed up a few hours late to court, or not at all.

    One thing I should have noted earlier: the county jail has a “processing” fee of $35 upon arrest. Yes, you pay for the privilege of being tossed in a concrete box that you can't leave. Even if you're found innocent or the case is quickly dismissed, this has to be paid. If not paid up front, t's deducted from any money placed on a client's books, which include everything from phone calls to commissary (eating anything that's not basically poison). This leads to a side-issue: the cost of jail “visits”. It's of course contracted out to a private company that charges exorbitant fees. That is, if the electronic system even works. This can be done from home using a skype-like system, or in the jail with a skype-like system. No face-to-face visits or through plexiglass windows. But I digress.

    Once the scum-suckers bond a client out, more often than not the client will be subjected to pretrial supervision. This can include weekly or monthly check-ins, urinalysis or breath tests, electronic home monitoring, or various other conditions. Think being on probation, except before you copped a plea or lost a trial. The legality of this simply baffles me, considering the presumption of innocence that virtually everyone knows about and is a supposed bedrock of the criminal legal system. Years ago, this was a public system provided by the courts but it has since been contracted out to various companies, providing another remora lazily hoovering up the scraps of a corrupt system. Of course, because it's a private company, there are costs associated with it. Again nothing exorbitant, but a client can expect to pay $15 to $30 (occasionally more) a month to enjoy the privilege of not spending several months in jail before admitting to or being convicted of a crime. I am assured that clients will never have their bonds revoked for nonpayment, but simple insignificant infractions can be grounds for revocation if brought to the judge's attention. I have noticed that they practice wide discretion on reporting said infractions. If found noncompliant a person is returned to the county jail with the right to a hearing to contest the revocation within 14 days.

    Everyone knows the dangers of pretrial incarceration. It results in a much higher rate of guilty pleas for reasons too obvious to go into. Fundamentally, being in jail means not working or making any money, and usually the loss of one's job and often one's benefits. But even folks out of custody can watch the costs add up as their cases creep along. Speedy trial rights usually mean that you have to have a trial within six months of requesting one. A failure to appear at a court appearance can function as a de facto waiver of that right, starting the clock over. As MLK said, justice delayed is justice denied. It also winds up hitting the wallet pretty hard.

    And then, for the vast majority who find themselves guilty, there are the above court costs. But for the folks lucky enough to be granted a probationary sentence, there are supervision costs. That comes to $50 a month in my county. For a 12 month sentence, that's $600. That's a short sentence. Most clients will end up being billed for more than a thousand dollars so they can meet with a bored civil servant once a month and piss in a cup. Except, of course, they often have to pay for their piss tests at $10-$15 a pop. Paying court costs is also a standard condition of probation. Although it is admittedly rate, you can have your probation revoked for non-payment of costs or restitution.

    Restitution is another cost, although easier to defend. Essentially, if a victim is out any money – whether because something was stolen or broken in the commission of a crime – then restitution will become part of the sentence. This includes payments to insurance companies if they end up compensating the victim financially, like in the case of a DUI involving a car accident. The amounts can range from a small amount for a petty theft the several thousand dollars. And you bet that interest accrues on the initial amount, even if the client is incarcerated or otherwise unable to pay.

    Folks who get a jail sentence can on occasion may be lucky enough to be afforded another option: in-home detention. This costs between $11 and $15 a day. Because this is such a great deal for them, prosecutors and judges in my jurisdiction usually double the amount of the sentence. So if you want to avoid a three month jail sentence, expect to pay *whips out calculator* at least two grand. There are also work release programs where you sleep in jail at night but work outside during the day. Counties usually charge a small amount per day for that as well. My county discontinued the program several years ago for administrative reasons, though.

    Even something as simple as community service costs a one-time $100 “processing fee”.

    Realistically, there are three sentencing options for a misdemeanor: jail, probation, or a fine. One deprives you of the ability to make income and the other two simply take it from you. With felonies it's similar, except it's prison, community corrections (think halfway house), probation, or an exorbitant fine. I will admit my clients rarely get assessed fines, but as you can see, that doesn't make much of a difference to the bottom line.

    Another thing that may be unique to my state: a few years ago they broke drug crimes into their own categories, and lessened the sentencing for them. As a part of this, they made it clear that probation and treatment are supposed to be a first resort. However, on top of that, they enforce “drug offender surcharges” that are mandatory and in addition to any other costs, fees or fines. For a basic misdemeanor plea, the surcharge is $1,000. They increase with level of severity. The purpose is to put it in a slush fund to help pay for treatment, but they're rarely paid, for obvious reasons.

    Now if you're incarcerated for even a short period in connection with an accusation, you will likely lose your job. If you serve a jail sentence without work release, your income drops to zero. This includes benefits. I have spent quite a bit of time trying to help former clients get their SSI or Medicaid turned back on after a stint in the jail and it is as frustrating as you can imagine. So, you're convicted of a crime, thereby making you drastically less employable, often after losing any source of income you had and you have these bills to pay.

    Of course, because this is America, that bill doesn't just sit there, where you owe the courts several hundred or thousand dollars for several years. One of the first things a client does is set up a payment plan with the courts. If it goes unpaid for a short amount of time it gets sent to court collections. As with any collections scheme, missed or late payments are a huge black mark on your credit report. The payment plan may become a court order, thereby making nonpayment technically contempt. They may be ordered to get a job in order to make the payments, again with the full authority of the court behind said order. They may be forbidden to apply for sources of credit while the payment plan is in affect. A lien can be placed on any real property they own. And of course, because this is a late-capitalist hell-hole, interest accrues on the total. And the interest starts at sentencing, so if you are imprisoned for several years, you will have no money, no income, and a much larger bill when you're released on parole.

    Just to put some sugar on top, many of these costs are non-waivable, so a sympathetic judge cannot make a sentence that doesn't include them. The ones that may be waived or suspended are usually only done so at the discretion of the court after a separate post-sentence hearing to determine a client's indigence or inability to pay. I'll leave you to imagine how often those are successful.

    So, this is probably not really news to most people, or maybe the idea is but not the exact details. We can hardly call them hidden costs, either, because they're usually spelled out in statute or provided to the client in a handy invoice upon conviction.

    That being said, I think there are less obvious ways than this debt slavery that my clients suffer for the benefit of capital. Again, I'm not as qualified to go into the details of the prison-industrial complex, mostly because you don't have a right to a lawyer once you make it to prison or parole, except for narrowly tailored appeals issues. Suffice to say, it's a fucking nightmare.

    But one major and in my opinion transparent way that the criminal justice system financially exploits my clients for the benefit of capital is turning them into nearly unemployable people and then forcing them into the labor market under threat of incarceration.

    It is a standard condition of probation and parole to have or be seeking employment (or education, in some cases). A violation of parole or probation will likely result in incarceration. So the system makes you entirely unqualified or unappealing for most worthwhile forms of work and then forces you to perform some other kind. One judge I practice in front of likes to sentence a probationer to 500 hours of useful public service, suspended upon providing proof of a paying job. On it's face, this is a way of preventing idle time where people get up to no good. Realistically, it simply forces recently incarcerated people to find whatever job they can, usually at distressingly low wages and in exploitative circumstances.

    One of the stated purposes of probation and parole is to assist the probationer with reintegrating into society. This includes helping them find work. This is a lofty goal which the system falls woefully short. Probation and parole officers are low-paid civil servants who may have high ideals when they begin work but are generally incapable or unwilling to perform their duties adequately. Not to say that I haven't encountered some who do a good job of this, but they are the rare exception.

    The benefits of this system for capital are readily apparent. With a large population of former convicts or simple misdemenants floating around desperate for work, employers can pay low wages with no benefits in jobs that are low-skilled often dangerous, and that person has to either suck it up or go back to jail. There are plenty of people just like them out there and don't think employers don't know this. Even worse, these employers can turn it into a positive, framing it as a type of public service or a moral belief in second chances – one that they are taking a hefty risk to perform, they might add.

    In essence, the court system is supposedly a neutral arbiter designed to punish crime and make victims whole, with some lip service to assisting the criminal in becoming a contributing member of society. In reality, it has become a system that directly leeches money from the most vulnerable members of society and has the added effect of creating lucrative side-industries, like for-profit prisons, bail bonds parasites, and the private defense bar (I somewhat understand my colleagues who cash out and go private, but I have to admit some small amount of contempt for them). It also forces people into debt peonage and undermines their value as laborers to ensure that there is a large pool of low-cost, powerless labor that capital can exploit for profit. It's similar to the immigration system, with the threat of re-incarceration or deportation allowing employers to take advantage of these workers/migrants with below-living wages, long hours without overtime, dangerous working conditions, wage theft, and zero benefits, knowing that their power over them is immense.
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    Last edited by mmoc6b1f2f8dff; 2018-08-10 at 12:23 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Regardless of how you feel, it still IS a business. It's not a public function. End of Line.
    It should be regarded as every other public service industry...and they don't have profit margins to consider. And that's how such systems has always worked.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by angrys13 View Post
    Let me learn you a little bit.

    You don't get a bill when you leave jail or prison.

    Your debt stays associated to your name, and if you want to purchase commissary or other items the jail provides during your time, your debt must remain clear. If you leave jail with a "negative balance" and return to jail, you have the same balance you left with. This makes no bearing or difference unless you intend to buy commissary or other items you deem essential that the jail does not provide you enough with.

    I'll use myself for an example. I was in jail for 1 year. I was billed at 2$ a day. I don't have to pay this fee, at all. However, if I wanted more food or items than the jail provided me, and I was 6 months in, I must clear my balance of 300~ish dollars to break even, and then add more to be able to make my purchase.

    When I left, I was not billed for a negative deficit. No one is. You are charged court costs, whatever lawyer fees you incurred, and medical expenses.
    No one is charged 50$ a day, anywhere. I think you need to fact check whatever you read.
    https://www.brennancenter.org/analys...e-fines-clause - $60 a day in Macomb County

    https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/new...ebt/index.html - Florida, lawsuit that made national headlines. $50 a day.

    Some places do charge that much. So fact check that next time before saying I didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  12. #32
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    The point of the prison system is to keep people in prison.

    We may not have "debtors prisons" anymore for private debt, but they're still very real for public debt.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  13. #33
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It should be regarded as every other public service industry...and they don't have profit margins to consider. And that's how such systems has always worked.
    It's not a public service, so no, it shouldn't be regarded as such.

    Not only that, but even if it was... Where does that money come from?
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy View Post
    Kind of hard when your definition of a "scumbag" is somebody who minds their own business and smokes a plant you don't like.
    I'm sorry not breaking the law is hard.
    And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Regardless of how you feel, it still IS a business. It's not a public function. End of Line.
    No. That is not the end of the line in anyway. Prisons are a staple in any society in any part of the world at every point in history. They are a public necessity, not a luxury. It doesn't matter that some are private businesses. They aren't even a majority. Why the exist even, who knows. Especially since they have multiple complaints that mimic my thoughts, ranging from inadequate staff training to poor conditions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    It's not a public service, so no, it shouldn't be regarded as such.

    Not only that, but even if it was... Where does that money come from?
    In what reality is prison Not to be considered a public service? What do you purpose is done with criminals then? Just leave them be?
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Its not silly one bit. A prison is Not an institution that should be classified as a business. They are there to punish those who have broken the law and keep them away from society and "hopefully" rehabilitate them. When you take a place that should function one way, and make it function for profits instead, it loses its ability to properly function as it should since its focused on money.
    But prisons are businesses, and function as sorts.

  17. #37
    Only in Murica. Wait until he can't pay then gets locked up again. Nicely perpetuating the circle.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by NoRest4Wicked View Post
    I'm sorry not breaking the law is hard.
    You could easily not break the law and end up in jail. Someone falsely accuses you of a crime, police arrest you, and you are now sitting in jail without breaking a crime until you are proven innocent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    But prisons are businesses, and function as sorts.
    That isn't even a majority of where our prisoners go though. In 2015, it was like %18 of federal prisoners were in private prisons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by X Amadeus X View Post
    Yeah, I see what you mean and NO I wouldn't be ok with running a scam, which is why my mind isn't made up on this.

    Making prisoner pay the bill on their stay I am Ok with.

    Corporations using this as a tool to backdoor slave labor or price gouge those who already made a mistake BS price, I am NOT ok with.


    So I could totally support this, and no I don't agree prisons are Schools sorry, you get your ass sent to prison because the rest of society is sick of your shit, and doesn't want to put up with you, and short of other barbaric methods.

    Justice should always be tempered with Mercy otherwise there is no justice, however I am a little on the fence here, I am not convinced people ever change whether in prison or out.

    And the safest place for society for the most dangerous and violent is prison IMO.
    I am all for trying to offset the costs, but this is just such a huge conflict of interest that it irks me as being easily messed with. Just like with my brother being sentenced to drug tests he is forced to pay. I mean, come on! That just stinks of corruption.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoRest4Wicked View Post
    I'm sorry not breaking the law is hard.
    Yeah which laws specifically?

    Because there are a lot of laws, and you most likely break them everyday without realizing it. Ignorant or not is no excuse the mantra goes. So please knock it off with the high and mighty shit.
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  20. #40
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Nov 2011
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    Dominican Republic
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoRest4Wicked View Post
    Don't be a scumbag and get locked up. Problem solved.
    Sadly, you only need 20 mins or less to be a scumbag, and we live way too much compared to that.

    I agree that they should pay for their mistakes, but that does not mean to put them in a position that they cant be reintroduced to society (if thats the point, then just kill the inmates, cheaper and more human)

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