Metzen Interview about Fandom and Toxicity

[Nurasu]

Blizzard is most likely alteady working on the next expansion. They know how the BFA story will end and everything is already written and set. All cinemantics are most likely done or atleast being worked on too.

The highlights are done; according to what Metzen just said, the story team is likely just getting started after being handed the plot. They didn't develop said plot, though, and likely have to figure out how to reach it.

Big decisions like Teldrassil are made way in advance by the game team, only later brought to members of the story team to dramatize the plot, not to actually create the plot.

[Granyala]

I agree with this, but that doesn't make all artists good even at their best. It's ultimately Blizzard's job to determine their actual capability though, and I'd agree that we need to stick to our arena as consumers of their product. I just don't fully agree that they're immune as Metzen did imply by telling us to stick to the in-game.

I don't believe it was his intent to say that artists should be immune. Blizzard has fucked up many times over the course of WoW and they have openly admitted that quite often. That also goes for story elements, one incident that comes to mind is how lame Arthas was being portrayed back in Wrath, when he would pop in at all kinds of moments but almost never actually DO anything threatening except blah blah. They definitely took that to heart and tried to do different ... well... they fell off the other side of the horse with Deathwing which I saw ... umm twice, I think, before Dragon Soul.

What he means is also not to deflect by only talking about what we like. I believe what he wants is that we talk about what we like in addition to voicing critical opinions.

You know, when I play the flute, I know that I make mistakes. I know that my tone is not awesome (only 2 years in), yet my flute teacher doesn't crush me under her heel and criticizes me back into the stone age. She gives a mixture of feedback, some things that I can improve (and suggestions about how) and some things she genuinely liked in order to encourage me further.

Blizzards artists are not adult students like me, they are battle hardened professionals but they are not terminators. They have feelings like you and me. Personal insults and overly dramatic criticism hurt them just as they would hurt us. All Metzen wanted to say is "please keep it in mind that you are still dealing with human beings (even if it's just the face of a bit corporation you see) and behave accordingly."

[Thelxi]

If you can't handle the heat then get out of the kitchen. If backlash to bad writing for an online video game is stopping creators from sharing their work, then maybe they should apply for work elsewhere and offline. Edgy I know, but the internet is not a safe place and I hope I won't live to see it policed or regulated. Lobbing community backlash together with personal harassment is unfair and dirty too.

At the end of the day all they had to do is not use the term morally gray. It's not like many people expect tolkien levels of literature and creativity from Blizzard, but shooting yourself in the foot like that has repercussions on the internet, surprise surprise.

[GreenJesus]

Isn't this the same company that pushed the "it matters" ad campaign with people in real life hating each other based on their faction in game? Hypocrites. They stoke the fires and then complain when it gets too hot.

[Jastall]

Is that normal for game companies? It seems so backward for an RPG to not make the story first. Maybe it would be too challenging to keep content going if the story has to meander rather than jump from one big game event to the next, I'm not sure.

I think it varies extremely. Certainly story-driven games, especially those with player choice such as most Western RPGs, must design it early in their design process since said player choice can influence all other facets of the game (what enemy they face, what power they get, what location they visit, etc.). For instance in The Witcher 2, based on a choice in Act 1 you can get two completely different sets of quests with two different sets of locations and resolutions in Acts 2 and 3. You need to plan for this stuff way in advance and the writers must be consulted as part of the design process or the entire thing falls apart. Not so in WoW, where there's practically no player choice to account for apart from Alliance or Horde which isn't really the same thing.

Now, Blizzard plans expansions way in advance; I'd wager most their designers (not artists or QA people, but the ones with ideas) are already done with most if not all of BfA and some are already working on planning the next expansion in detail, so they already know the important story beats, these are set in stone and won't change. Or rather they shouldn't, because they only time they shifted gear on the story mid expack was WoD which didn't end well, let's just say. The issue is that, like Metzen puts it, the people actually tasked with writing the story's all-important details have to make do with what they're getting dumped in their lap. They don't decide that Teldrassil burns, that Sylvanas goes lolevil, that Saurfang leaves, that the Alliance is dumb during the siege of Lordaeron and all that. They just try to write these events in a way that makes sense. Which is a significant constraint.

Honestly this interview gave me a bit of newfound respect for the WoW story team. To work in such conditions and put out writing that is only sometimes a mess, rather than always a mess, must actually be fairly hard.

[Byleth]

"Toxic" is such an overused buzzword these days.

"wahh I don't like what you're saying! TOXIC!!!"
"wahh you're criticizing and complaining! TOXIC!!!"
"wahh I disagree with you! TOXIC!!!"

It's definietly overused. But when used correctly, ala Metzen, it rings true.

- - - Updated - - -

I haven't even seen anything beyond the first of the reboot series, which I thought was decent (if basically a reskin of the first Star Wars movie).

That's exactly how I felt about it too. It was a bit weird.

[Nurasu]

Honestly this interview gave me a bit of newfound respect for the WoW story team. To work in such conditions and put out writing that is only sometimes a mess, rather than always a mess, must actually be fairly hard.

This is my main takeaway, I think I can almost forgive them for the Void Elves when I picture what their faces must have looked like when they got the memo.

[Byleth]

That is not hypocritical. You can hate one part of the story, but love another part of the story. It happens all the time. Favorite character dies in a good show? You hate that part but still love the show. Is that hypocritical too?

While this can be true, your fav character can also die, and it totally ruins a show for you.

I'm looking at you Bates Motel...

I'm not arguing with your point though, people are going waaay too far with their criticisms. It's uncivilized.

[Granyala]

This is my main takeaway, I think I can almost forgive them for the Void Elves when I picture what their faces must have looked like when they got the memo.

OT:
Haha.. yeah... those probably weren't happy ones.
You know what irks me about the whole Alleria void thing?

Me, standing next to her as a Shadow priest. Whole questline, shadowform, slinging shadow magic, void form..... not a single peep that acknowledges us.
._.
Man I'd love if the game could be complex enough for NPCs to actually react to this. Imagine going into shadowform on board of the Vindicaar.

[Magister of Quelthalas]

If I am unsatisfied I shall say I am unsatisfied. I will not respect bad writing just because people have worked on it. I will NOT try to bully people in the internet for it ofc. I didnt like the fact that those catapults (which didnt have azerite munitions) were able to burn Teldrassil while several expansions ago Druids of the Flame were unsuccessful and in cannon that tree is resistant to fire. I hope we get answers to these and many more questions loke these but we wont considering what happened with stuff like these in the past.

Also I want to play as Fel Orcs and since we are evil guys now there is nothing wrong about it.(Even though we dont need to be bad guys to recruit them) Also Man'ari would be cool.

[Byleth]

This is what happens when people start to feel like there's no point in posting constructive criticism. A small group of them turn nasty and just look for someone to harass because fuck it how else is Blizzard going to pay attention?

In what world is this sort of behaviour appropriate and something that we should allow as a community to happen?

While I don't agree with all the story decisions Blizz make, I'm not going to go around making death threats, and being nasty and toxic in general.

I will however stand up to people who behave like this. Even if I agree with thier points, because it's the right thing to do.

[Ravingmad]

The more we are, the dummer we get. Internet unfortunatly makes it easier.
A guy shouting in the streets about ideas might just look like a crazy guy. Well, on the internet he might become a God. This paradox is hilarious, yet amazing.

Disclaimer: THIS TOPIC IS NOT INCLUDED, yet. :P

[Deleted]

How convenient to says its just people that play horde who act like little kids. The hypocrisy in your comment is rife with ignorance

Do you even know how to read? He's saying, you know, quite the opposite.

[Rafoel]

Aye, that's the point of pretty much any entertainment: to play with people's emotions.

Sure, I was pissed at the writers for destroying Darnassus, after all it was their decision to bring the story to that point.
But people need to stop to disrespect and tear apart artists just because they develop into a direction they disagree with.

Oh no. All haters suddenly understood their wrongdoings and stopped hating.

You really don't realize that you can't change people? You, Metzen, the others? Nobody realizes?

You're going to whine about this for all the years to come?

You could as well whine that rain is falling.

Instead of blaming humans for behaving like humans, adapt and stop caring.

[Byleth]

If I am unsatisfied I shall say I am unsatisfied. I will not respect bad writing just because people have worked on it. I will NOT try to bully people in the internet for it ofc. I didnt like the fact that those catapults (which didnt have azerite munitions) were able to burn Teldrassil while several expansions ago Druids of the Flame were unsuccessful and in cannon that tree is resistant to fire. I hope we get answers to these and many more questions loke these but we wont considering what happened with stuff like these in the past.

You sir know how to behave correctly!

You critise and refuse toxicity. Sure you may never get an answer, but Blizz doesn't owe us anything.

[Nurasu]

OT:
Haha.. yeah... those probably weren't happy ones.
You know what irks me about the whole Alleria void thing?

Me, standing next to her as a Shadow priest. Whole questline, shadowform, slinging shadow magic, void form..... not a single peep that acknowledges us.
._.
Man I'd love if the game could be complex enough for NPCs to actually react to this. Imagine going into shadowform on board of the Vindicaar.

If it were up to me, there'd probably be nothing to actually do from all these extra little story elements I'd want to add

[Granyala]

I didnt like the fact that those catapults (which didnt have azerite munitions) were able to burn Teldrassil while several expansions ago Druids of the Flame were unsuccessful and in cannon that tree is resistant to fire. I hope we get answers to these and many more questions

Aye, I'd love some answers too.
The range of the catapults being the most obvious but as far as the fire is concerned, Elegy talks about it as being "unstable arcane enhanced munitions created by the Horde magi". So, they didn't just throw normal run of the mill oil barrels.

[Byleth]

Aye, I'd love some answers too.
The range of the catapults being the most obvious but as far as the fire is concerned, Elegy talks about it as being "unstable arcane enhanced munitions created by the Horde magi". So, they didn't just throw normal run of the mill oil barrels.

Interesting, this suggests an element of premeditation on Sylvanas' part.

[Blayze]

Isn't this the same company that pushed the "it matters" ad campaign with people in real life hating each other based on their faction in game? Hypocrites. They stoke the fires and then complain when it gets too hot.

Involved enough for the profit, not involved enough to be complicit.
They've known for years the sort of person they encourage, yet every expansion they keep harping on the faction war.

[Rafoel]

Teldrassil was a shit story and Saurfang's cinematic was a great story, it's not hypocritical at all to say such a thing and fuck Metzen for thinking otherwise. Teldrassil ignored all the quirks of each character in favor of having them play out a story they thought was epic. Sylvanas is stupid as hell during the story and lets Malfurion live. Malfurion's powers were greatly nerfed for the plot. Once again all we see of Tyrande is her doting over her precious Malfy. It's just not how we want to see these characters portrayed. We want to see Malfurion being epic, Tyrande brutal, and Sylvanas ruthless and cunning. Saurfang's cinematic is an example of how things are done. They focus on Saurfang as a character rather than trying to portray some epic story it's just a simple story about Saurfang being conflicted on what he should do and tired of living.

Blizzards reaction to the outcry over Teldrassil is what gives me little hope for the story going forward. We're going to get some good stories sure but we're also going to get those terrible stories that you're convinced an intern wrote it. They'd rather come up with excuses than admit to making a poor story.

In real life, a guy like Saurfang would get himself killed 50 years ago. He wouldn't even exist at this moment of story.

You like unrealistic characters?

Or maybe you like unrealistice plot points? Because, you know, a fatherless son finding a sonless father a the top of wall during the night at the exact moment that Saurfang decides to kill himself, and this fatherless son being virtuous enough to follow Saurfang, and then eloquent enough to convince him to go back? Sure, great story. Straight from a fairy tale. Maybe that's what you expect from fantasy setting, I don't blame you. But don't behave like it's the "one right way" of telling stories. It's irritating.

Also, funny that you mention "Sylvanas being stupid", when its your precious Saurfang that let Malfurion live. If you, as faction leader, can't expect your main general of following a simple direct order, that was also planned since the beginning of campaign, then you can as well stop fighting at all.