The problem “Get Good”

[Nobleshield]

I don't put the blame squarely on LFG, but I think the fact its cross realm is the issue. It encourages people to not care about anyone else in the group. I thankfully don't encounter it often but I do sometimes see this selfish attitude that somebody else's experience is meaningless. And, as I said before, as a tank this is particularly hard if you have not tanked the dungeon before. A DPS can go into a dungeon almost blind, and just check the dungeon journal for important things (maybe not in Heroic and certainly not in Mythic, but you wouldn't go into those blind anyway), the tank, however, cannot.

If they've never run the dungeon before, they will still be expected to have seen a video of someone (maybe in Beta) running the dungeon so they know what pats to be aware of. That's a lot of pressure, even for someone experienced when the content itself is new. I find myself reluctant to tank new dungeons, not because I'm a new tank (I've tanked since Wrath) but because I'm not familiar with the dungeon layout or all the abilities of every mob in the dungeon, and I'm expected to magically know that before I queue, especially a few months in when everyone expects people to have run them multiple times. Sure you can say in chat that you haven't tanked this dungeon or you're coming back to tank, but you run the risk of having "those" types of people in the group (we all know the type) who will get mad at that because it means it won't be a 15 minute AOE zergfest.

[Eurhetemec]

Tanks: leaders ( shortage ) No on wants to lead a bunch of toxic people

As someone who has tanked since EQ in 1999, I think the major problem in WoW is one that's been getting worse since WotLK, which is DPS who think they know better than you, and think they should pull.

That's really it.

When people behave, just even that much, and let me pull, tanking in WoW is quite fun. Doesn't matter if it's with friends, or with silent strangers, just letting the tank pull and control engagement that's all I need.

But so many people playing DPS can't manage that. I just don't get it myself. As DPS I've never pulled except when asked, and I always pull smart and pay attention to what the tank is doing. Almost every person I've been in a guild with has played the same way. Yet LFD provides an inexhaustible resource of complete idiots who want to rush ahead and pull shit, maybe wait for you to pull shit, then totally ruin your around-the-corner pull or whatever by rushing up and engaging it on the spot.

Oh yeah let's not actually avoid that patrol. Let's not LOS those casters. Let's position so we definitely get extra mobs when the Hunter presses disengage without looking where he's going (I've done it myself, I don't hate the Hunter for it - but I do hate DPS who won't let the tank move the mobs to a sensible place).

[Tradu]

I don't mind helping people, assuming they've put in the minimal effort of looking at available resources first. As in, before they ask something in a class discord, I'm going to expect them to have read the guides in the pins/resources. I'm not going to try to help people in random dungeons or whatever unless they specifically ask(like a druid tank last night who hadn't done Underrot before, so I briefly explained each boss and noteworthy trash mobs as we got to them), because in most cases they'll just start flaming.

[Eurhetemec]

Honestly as a healer main, it's kind of the same boat, but luckily we can get away with "If we couldn't heal you, you failed a mechanic" most of the times anyway.

But praise? Only in PuGs will I get praised every now and then for "Hey, you're better than the previous healers" which is still kind of.. avoiding having to say a real compliment

Not dissing your healing skills, but the healer I operate with most does get a lot of "Wow holy shit this is great healing!" and "Omg I didn't deserve to live but...". The odd "Omg y did i die ur bad" too, but I've literally seen people kicked for that before I could even start the vote lol.

That said, yes, you are right - most of the time someone dies, it is because they failed a mechanic HARDCORE, like seriously stood in something they shouldn't - probably after failing another mechanic.

On my DPS? Oh god. I can't. I have to either focus on my rotation, or on the mechanics. I can't do both. I simply can't :/ Give me healer or tank and I'll raid mythics, give me dps and I'll fail heroics probably.

Two things here:

1) If you play tons of healer and tank, you probably don't get a lot of practice on DPS, so it's effectively harder.

2) Some DPS have mechanics that require vastly more attention than others. If you're playing a DPS who has mechanics which require forethought and planning and so on, then also avoiding mechanics is really, really hard, in my experience. If you're playing more of a "Press it because it's up!" priority-rotation type which requires relatively little thought beyond "BLOW UR CDS AT THE RIGHT PHASE", you're going to have a much better time. Ranged DPS also just have a better time with mechanics, period.

So just find a relatively simple RDPS and I think you'll find it resolves these issues for you.

Once you have a lot of practice, you can "upgrade" to a harder-to-play DPS spec.

[Barnabas]

Remember when you were in college and you got your degree and couldn’t find a job
They said you need experience to work but no one will give you work to get experience?

Or

many people will say make a group, and do it yourself... ( getting into groups)


Both are these require people to actually be leaders, the gaming community is not.


Tanks: leaders ( shortage ) No on wants to lead a bunch of toxic people
Healers: support / leader ( middle of the road) they can take the lead but prefer to help the team without having a major role

DPS : followers ( all over )




The majority of people don’t tank or make groups because they don’t know how, confidence is low and typically are introverted. They aren’t comfortable with public speaking.

You know all those soft skills, people should be learning.


So next time instead of saying “get good” maybe teach someone how to be good, and be a leader.

Be awesome friends.

your opener should be i've never seen this fight before. what should i be doing? that alone reduces your chances significantly of being told "get good." it's a simple concept.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Why expect others to teach you when you can just teach yourself...?

Be the "silent hero"-type of player. As someone always willing to help, a fountain of knowledge, I was simply burned out by how so many players seem impervious to absorbing said knowledge and help. For example, one of the Mythic dungeon pugs we made had to explain to the tank and 1 DPS (from the same guild) what to do through 4 wipes before they got it. And then the idiot tank went "big-dick" (his own words) and pulled so much trash that it was a wipe, whilst the idiot DPS he had with him kept ressing and not allowing the trash to reset...

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

The difference is when you are 80k in debt and looking for a job, you can't just start your own business.

This is a video game. You can always start your own group, or even guild.
That's what I did back in TBC when people told me no.

[Mr chub]

The difference is when you are 80k in debt and looking for a job, you can't just start your own business.

This is a video game. You can always start your own group, or even guild.
That's what I did back in TBC when people told me no.

We created a world were every single person starts out equal and people still whine about it not being fair.

[Deleted]

The last time i tried to be kind in dungeon i got yelled at for no reason. This is what happened:

I see the tank wandering (not afking) around after each pull in Tol Dagor. Since i did all the quest in that dungeon, and i know it's a bit confusing, i ask to him, with this EXACT words: "Hey warrior do you need the quest? I can tell you where the key are.".
His answer: "$%&£ you idiot, i have a baby crying in my hands you %$&£%".

Useless to say, the whole party shutted his mouth so hard he never ever wrote again during the whole dungeon.

That said, i am 100% for helping people WHO ARE WILLING to be helped. And that's rare in WoW.

[Tradu]

No one said anything about being the leader or that it is *his* group. That is your mind putting things that aren't there.
When he said "Tank is the boss of the dungeon", it is quite a simple logic.

Tank is responsible for holding the aggro of the group that is currently being attacked. Tank is also responsible for making sure that the group doesn't die due to the mobs attacking other players. This is achieved easiest by allowing the tank to pull the group, getting them into position, and allowing the tank to make sure that they can hold aggro on a number of mobs they feel comfortable with. DPS is there to then nuke said mobs.
Maybe they have CDs on cooldown, maybe they have been whispering the healer and the healer wants to take it easier, you don't know. Tank and healer is a pivotal role within the dungeon, whether you like it or not.

Seriously, this bullshit you have just stamped on in some kind of pissing contest is *why* you have 2 hour long DPS queues for a heroic at times.
Get over yourself.

And if the DPS are bad, you'll run out of CDs to tank the mobs with. All 3 roles are vital, pretending tanks and healers are more important is silly when all 3 are necessary(especially when tank and healer have historically always been the easiest roles to get carried as)

[Goldielocks]

I disagree. “Git gud” is used when someone is complaining and doesn’t blame their own skill level for their failures.

[ID811717]

I wouldn't mind to tank or heal but i like playing mage or hunter. Being forced into a role because blizzard forces roles prevents me from doing that. The biggest problem comes from the itemlvl, where you don't get into Keystone runs because of low itemlvl but you don't get higher itemlvl because you can't get into Keystone runs. And "making your own" won't help because the tanks and healers won't join and instead look for the group with the highest ilvl.

Unless you can get ahead of the curve at the very start of the expansion you're screwed. Or play with skilled friends that will go into +15s and farm Mythic raids, which just doesn't happed to to almost everyone.

I am a healer. Whenever I meet someone skilled AND mature in M+, I add them to my friend list. Some people also add me to their friend list. I normally accept invites even if I would not have added them on my own. I got 180 new friends in Legion.

A couple of people then start regularly whispering me something along the lines of "hey I am doing +X difficulty in dungeon Y, wanna heal?". I reject some offers because I'm busy, not interested or just lazy at the time. But eventually we did some more runs together, and now I play with some of these people a lot.

You don't need to play a specific dungeon role to be successful or to be a leader. As long as you appear to be skilled, mature and put some effort into networking, you can achieve anything. I know many more leaders that play DPS roles than those that play tank roles. For a start, all you need to do is befriend several decent players who know how to play their roles, and keep asking them out for some M+ runs together.

It's not about ability to lead, it's about an ability to treat other people like people, not tools to get your loot at minimal possible effort.

I agree with this. I think some kind of social maturity is more valuable than raw skills. It's not exactly a very complicated game. There are lots of mythic raiders around, and most of them can learn to perform great in M+ if only they commit to it. You just need to spot those people and to engage them.

[Tradu]

It isn't anything to do with pretending they are more important, that is again words being placed into a mouth.
It is the tanks role, and by rushing ahead, or pulling more, or by causing issues extra beyond that role, you overstep the boundaries of that role, which is half the problem with WoW it seems.

DPS telling the players how to tank, tanks telling the healers they don't heal enough and suck, healers telling the DPS they aren't performing enough or doing big enough numbers. People need to basically just realise they have a specific specialised role within that dungeon, all 3 are vital if you are to progress in a timely manner efficiently, so let people just do the job they have been assigned for.

Not that hard.

But again my point stands, by having DPS rush ahead, trying to pull more, trying to push the tank to go faster because they decided to queue for a dungeon they don't have time to actually *do* (especially at launch, I mean, christ day one I had players going "GOGOGO!", evidently people aren't allowed to enjoy the content, but has to be done supremely fast...*because*), then things start to become a problem.

As always though, people will use ridiculous logic to try and explain their mentality, which is basically the WoW community in a nutshell. Everyone thinks they are important, without realising you need others to get through.


Also, not sure where you are getting the "historically tank and healer are easiest to get carried as", because in my experience in WoW, an undergeared tank or healer has always been the surest way to wipe. You can get away with a few dps not able to pull their weight, especially in a raid, but good luck having a tank that doesn't have the gear necessary to do so, they usually either die fast, or won't have the output necessary to hold aggro (this is going all the way back to Classic).

SOunds again to me like ridiculous mental gymnastics by players trying to justify being an asshole.

There's a reason tanks and healers got geared last in raids. Their roles aren't tuned as tightly, it's much easier to do "well enough". And of course people want daily heroics or whatever over with as quickly as possible, they're not particularly interesting to do, Blizzard just decided to make them rewarding.

[Charge me Doctor]

Both are these require people to actually be leaders, the gaming community is not.

No, building a group in a game with LFG tool available is not the same as getting a job after college.

No, you are not required to be a leader to get a job neither does making a group in a game.

To make a group you need:
1) Click "I"
2) Click "group finder"
3) Click "create group"
4) Fill in blanks
5) Click "Make a group"
6) Grab people with appropriate role icon to have 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 DPS total in a group.

Then if you don't want to repeat this process ask for player contacts to invite him on the next week skipping this LFG process.


Also you misspelled git gud.

Also tanks are not entitled to be leaders, throwing markers around is available to anyone. If you think that leadership is "the on who pulls" - you are wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

The both provide huge amounth of anonimity. You can act as *** and nothing will happen to you. In old days sucj behaviour would cost you spot for dugeons and raids and whole realm would just make fun of you. We had several players what become memes on my realms for ways they acted in the game.

On a side note - you may not be an asshole and you'll be invited next time, saving you a lot of time and, maybe, spending time better than wiping over and over on galvazzt

[Jervaise]

No one said anything about being the leader or that it is *his* group. That is your mind putting things that aren't there.
When he said "Tank is the boss of the dungeon", it is quite a simple logic.

Tank is responsible for holding the aggro of the group that is currently being attacked. Tank is also responsible for making sure that the group doesn't die due to the mobs attacking other players. This is achieved easiest by allowing the tank to pull the group, getting them into position, and allowing the tank to make sure that they can hold aggro on a number of mobs they feel comfortable with. DPS is there to then nuke said mobs.
Maybe they have CDs on cooldown, maybe they have been whispering the healer and the healer wants to take it easier, you don't know. Tank and healer is a pivotal role within the dungeon, whether you like it or not.

Seriously, this bullshit you have just stamped on in some kind of pissing contest is *why* you have 2 hour long DPS queues for a heroic at times.
Get over yourself.

Check the post I replied to. That's exactly what it says.

[Tradu]

What the heck are you talking about? No one has ever tanked healers and tanks last in raids, they had itemised specific gear for them (dodge/parry)...
It has only been in MOP the whole specialised tanking gear has gone, so not sure where you are getting this "historic" mentality from, it was taken away about halfwya through WoWs life.

This is an endless waffle that could go on all day, you think what you think, I think what I think, and like everyone in the WoW community "*you* are right, everyone else is wrong".

Yeah, and half the game's existence has been since MoP. Even before MoP, tanks and healers got geared last as well when it came to items that weren't specifically tank/healer gear(like tier, for example) with very few exceptions. And yes, basically every decent guild did gear tanks/healers last.

[Pantupino]

I dont know why you get mad at the "get gud", with information on how to play "the proper way" is everywhere it seems like the bad players are just lazy and wont research to get better at the game. I was told I was bad at it and then I started looking guides.

[JackWest]

We created a world were every single person starts out equal and people still whine about it not being fair.

Thats because "equal outcome" is what some people(the spoiled snowflakes usually) want, even though all the time they ask for "equal opportunities"

[Shakari]

with all the resources available if you need handholding you are either too lazy or you will never "git gud".
this isn't school where there's always someone to drip-feed you information, no one is getting payed to teach you.

No one in game gets paid its silly to suggest otherwise, however if your too narrow minded to see the benifit's, to both youself and the game as a whole then your part of the problem if you can't see the advantages to doing just what you decrying in a social game which relies on individual to fill certain roles. To coin a phrase - Your pretty much cutting your nose of to spite your face.

You wonder why there's a HUGE tank shortage and has always been one... your attitude plays a major part towards why it exists.

[Tradu]

No one in game gets paid its silly to suggest otherwise, however if your too narrow minded to see the benifit's, to both youself and the game as a whole then your part of the problem if you can't see the advantages to doing just what you decrying in a social game which relies on individual to fill certain roles. To coin a phrase - Your pretty much cutting your nose of to spite your face.

You wonder why there's a HUGE tank shortage and has always been one... your attitude plays a major part towards why it exists.

There's plenty of resources for people to learn, expecting others to personally teach them the basics is absurd.