Why are people so afraid of creating a new society?

[Stelio Kontos]

You have a lack of faith in technology. If we have the technology and knowledge around, we lose nothing from our civilization.

No, I have a clear understanding of technology. Most of my friends and family work in the tech field, namely computers and machine learning.

I don't get my understanding of technology from shitty sci-fi I fantasize about.

[igualitarist]

I would never want to live in such society

[Deleted]

It doesn't work just like that.

Currency: you need it as the blood of the economy.

Government: you need laws, because some people are always assholes. And you need an authority to enforce those laws to avoid a state of anarchy. (The political system itself could use tweaking, of course.)

Culture and religion tend to go hand in hand, although they don't necessarily have to. But people do need something common to believe in; if it's not a deity, they still need a common history, a common purpose. With no great beliefs to unify the people, the society falls apart.

Problem with the last bit is that all cultures, religions, and beliefs are not equally good; some are utterly shit and worse than all others. And we need to be able to say that aloud to keep the shit out of the society.

[Shadowferal]

Yeah, you need to go back and study the history of civilization.

I suspect that it is you that needs to make such a study a priority.

[Stelio Kontos]

Problem with the last bit is that all cultures, religions, and beliefs are not equally good; some are utterly shit and worse than all others. And we need to be able to say that aloud to keep the shit out of the society.

I agree, it's been pretty depressing to see aspects of western consumerist global culture spreading like a rot. There's a lot of good about Western society, but plenty bad as well.

Same with most cultures I'd wager.

[Deleted]

No, I have a clear understanding of technology. Most of my friends and family work in the tech field, namely computers and machine learning.

I don't get my understanding of technology from shitty sci-fi I fantasize about.

You mean current technology?

[Shadowferal]

It doesn't work just like that. Currency: you need it as the blood of the economy. Government: you need laws, because some people are always assholes. And you need an authority to enforce those laws to avoid a state of anarchy. (The political system itself could use tweaking, of course.) Culture and religion tend to go hand in hand, although they don't necessarily have to. But people do need something common to believe in; if it's not a deity, they still need a common history, a common purpose. With no great beliefs to unify the people, the society falls apart. Problem with the last bit is that all cultures, religions, and beliefs are not equally good; some are utterly shit and worse than all others. And we need to be able to say that aloud to keep the shit out of the society.

I think you're hitting some of the points in the problem...As a WoW player, I've looked at how some of the cultures we knew were worked into the game, giving some things a theme/flavor, such as Norse, and Egyptian beliefs, merging into the titan technology. I just would think if cultural relevancy could influence how technology is viewed...we might find a progressive point.

[Stelio Kontos]

You mean current technology?

Yes, the stuff that actually exist, not the techno-magic you fantasize about.

[Deleted]

Yes, the stuff that actually exist, not the techno-magic you fantasize about.

Oh, you mean Dyson Spheres/Rings which scientists have said is theoretically possible to create to harness the full energy of stars? That techno-magic?

[Dhrizzle]

I've explained how the new society would not involve anybody from our current society. We would so to speak, "sacrifice" ourselves by pooling together all resources towards colonization of a world suitable for this new society when we reach the sufficient level of technology. We would ensure it is self-sufficient without the requirement of human input/support. We would send humans as embryos there to be raised from birth under the society exposed to the full social brainwashing of the society and then the fate of the human race rests upon them. As for us? We simply don't advance anymore, we allow our society to stagnate and die as they go forward.

Sounds like something that'd never happen, right? Well, it has to if we want society to change, nobody is going to do it here, so we have to create a new one somewhere else where people can't consent and aren't already influenced.

On your topic of Communism, it failed because it had at least 3 of the Four Pillars. You can argue that it tried to eliminate the Four Pillars by... making money "free" for everybody, which is not getting rid of the Pillars, it is embracing the Pillars. The reason why Communism failed was because it still used the Four Pillars, Karl Marx made the mistake of not realizing that there is no way to have an Utopia when you have the triggers for survival instincts as your main elements in a society. His ideas were interesting but faulty.

So your plan is not only putting all our eggs in one basket, we then count them before they hatch and launch them into space?

[Deleted]

So your plan is not only putting all our eggs in one basket, we then count them before they hatch and launch them into space?

Oh, probably not just limit to one planet, perhaps multiple planets if possible. I was thinking in terms of the general concept.

[Stelio Kontos]

Oh, you mean Dyson Spheres/Rings which scientists have said is theoretically possible to create to harness the full energy of stars? That techno-magic?

Until we can do it, it's techno-magic for all the good it does. Get your head out of the clouds and try to make the world better as it is. Don't indulge in unhealthy, unhelpful dystopian fantasies about turning humans into bland drones.

[Dhrizzle]

Think about how other alien civilizations may have done it. Do you really think a society as primitive as ours could ever create Dyson Rings or Spheres? Do you really think that any civilization has ever made it that far in a society that still declares war on itself? That still has racism, discrimination? Seriously? Do you really think any of that is possible when you still have billions of individuals who have their own ambitions and cares? It's impossible, evidently as seeing as we can't even afford a space mission at least until three decades has passed. It's slow, it's inefficient, it's broken and ancient.

You're making assumptions when we have absolutely zero data. We have experience of one intelligent species - us - and we've barely made it out of our own planet's gravity well so we have no idea what a Dyson-sphere building species could be like.

[Deleted]

Until we can do it, it's techno-magic for all the good it does. Get your head out of the clouds and try to make the world better as it is. Don't indulge in unhealthy, unhelpful dystopian fantasies about turning humans into bland drones.

Impossible to make the world better as it is, this society is doomed and lost. Nothing good will come from it, what we can do though is take all the technology and knowledge we've amassed and create a new society of humans with that technology and knowledge. A clean slate.

You might want to go to those scientists and tell them that everything they've been theorizing about is techno-magic, you sound like a person with reasonable knowledge and authority on the subject.

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You're making assumptions when we have absolutely zero data. We have experience of one intelligent species - us - and we've barely made it out of our own planet's gravity well so we have no idea what a Dyson-sphere building species could be like.

So, why don't we go ahead and find out? Jump-start it right now, throw away money and pool everything together to find out if we can pull it off.

[Dhrizzle]

We can force a society to evolve if we brainwash the newborns in a perfectly controlled environment, control their expectations, control their likes or dislikes, control their goals. Make it seem like as if they're making the decisions themselves so they can self-reinforce the idea and take the rest of it by themselves.

No we can't because we don't have enough knowledge of biology/psychology/sociology to develop a flawless system for creating your perfect drones, if such a thing is even possible.

[Boricha]

Change naturally happens over time. It's rational to react negatively when someone says, "Okay, starting from tomorrow, a totally new society."

[Stelio Kontos]

Impossible to make the world better as it is, this society is doomed and lost. Nothing good will come from it, what we can do though is take all the technology and knowledge we've amassed and create a new society of humans with that technology and knowledge. A clean slate.

You might want to go to those scientists and tell them that everything they've been theorizing about is techno-magic, you sound like a person with reasonable knowledge and authority on the subject.

Any big advancements will come through hard work and building on whatever we have now, not science fiction fantasies of social maladapts.

Your fantasy will never happen. It's not realistic, it's not accurate, and it's not well-informed.

And I'm glad for that, because if someone ever did create a population of humans like that, I'd hope the rest of us, or some other species if they exist, would have the good sense to wipe them out and put them out of their misery.

[Scathbais]

When you speak about “laws should protect mah feelingz", do you mean homophobic legislation, like gay marriage ban? Or anti-abortion laws, perhaps? Those are based on feelings and are pretty regressive.

Anti-abortion laws are based on the FACT that abortion murders a human being. Nothing regressive about not supporting murder.

[urasim]

A new society will be plagued with the same issues of the old.

As long as humans have other desires they need to fulfill, it'll be impossible to create this system where everyone works together to achieve something like this.

This is the same reason why communism will never work.

[Dhrizzle]

Oh, you mean Dyson Spheres/Rings which scientists have said is theoretically possible to create to harness the full energy of stars? That techno-magic?

The kind of mega-engineering required to make even a Dyson-swarm is way beyond what we can manage, and hopping straight to it is unecessary for a long, long time yet. Humanity needs to concentrate on space-borne or exo-planetary habitats within the solar system first, and I get the feeling the first real attempts at these will be made by the private sector to gather resources for profit.

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Oh, probably not just limit to one planet, perhaps multiple planets if possible. I was thinking in terms of the general concept.

Still, if we're going to essentially burn out the current society, spend all our resources and sacrifice ourselves we'd better be damned sure that these new-society seeds will work and are worth the effort. Personally I don't think it will be.

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So, why don't we go ahead and find out? Jump-start it right now, throw away money and pool everything together to find out if we can pull it off.

Because the act of trying, if we could get together the collective will to do so, could very well be economically crippling to the planet and set us back centuries.