"Vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons"

[chronia]

Vanilla is going to be awesome.

The community aspect will blow away the safe spaces CRZ that plagues current BFA and all will become clear in time!

I'll help you hope, however seeing the "community" on private servers i doubt its going to change alot.
I guess its more the mentality of players these days that actually changed the community than that the game did.

[Orange Joe]

"Vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons" – and!?


You think memorizing a 5-7 button rotations is hard? Not It's not and most people do it while leveling…
there is nothing hard or impressive about memorizing a 5-7 button rotation.
This is dumbest thing I've ever heard; It literally takes 5 hours to master it.

While in Vanilla and TBC! You had to think ahead and manage your resources –that is what actually takes skill– and doing that would take months
you would have the illusion that you've mastered your class, but you didn't.


Key things that you are missing when you think about vanilla
– Resource management
– Timing
– Thinking ahead
Which are not vital to game right now at all or not present altogether…

Vanilla & TBC gameplay was more strategy and RPG like, while modern wow is flat out action game.

So this complicated thing you are talking about was literally just stopping and waiting for resources to come back. Management was not a skill........

[Mardy120]

it seems like people legit dont know what resource management was for dps classes

[Planetdune]

1-2 buttons sounds okay to me

[Protean]

No that’s not why I called you toxic.
Live has a 5 button rotation tops, which doesn’t make the game any more fun to play at all.

The credibility of someone who can't count, is nill.

The credibility of a liar is also nill.

[Mafic]

I'll help you hope, however seeing the "community" on private servers i doubt its going to change alot.
I guess its more the mentality of players these days that actually changed the community than that the game did.

Mentality is forged with the tools to work with.

If your class plays like fisher price and has half the tools it used to have it is hard to be excited to help others or be excited to be part of a server community or guild.

[MidnyteTV]

I'll help you hope, however seeing the "community" on private servers i doubt its going to change alot.
I guess its more the mentality of players these days that actually changed the community than that the game did.

This.

There is nothing stopping players from behaving the same way they did in Vanilla. They just choose not to now.

[Deficineiron]

Pretty much everyone interested to continue playing WoW MUST buy the expansion, so the sales figures correlate pretty well with the number of current subscribers. There used to be 6.5 mil subscriptions in Asia alone and one million less in west. In this light 3.4 mil sold expansions worldwide is not anything extraordinary even though any game selling those figures is an achievement.

Statistics is a funny thing. By narrowing the window of time you can prove pretty much anything and have things look better than they actually are. They broke the one day sales record and that's awesome but how about the total number of sold copies? How come no one talks about this figure?

right, they haven't given a 30-day sales figure in quite a while for an expansion. last was either panda or wod? one assumes the comparison trend wasn't helpful and it was discontinued.

[Battlebeard]

I think a 'raid moba' would be fantastic, honestly. HotS had a weekly brawl that was similar to this, 5 man vs zerg. It was a ton of fun.

Now.. your Raid+ or Mythic+ idea is basically challenge mode 5mans. But the thing about that is, even if everyone has the same gear, they have to balance it around how much damage you can do with that gear. DPS will always be important, there isn't a fun way to balance it so that DPS doesn't matter. Otherwise, you have good players who steamroll through it while worse players struggle, or you have good players struggle while worse players literally can't do it.

When you say 'only skill will determine what level you reach' surely you know that being able to squeeze out every last drop of DPS your character is able to do, while doing mechanics, is what makes someone skilled in an MMO. That's why bad players = no dps, and good players = good dps.

Well, that's why you need more levels of M+ etc. Lets say there are 250 levels. Very smart bots that play completely flawless could do 250 (max), Method people and other pro would be around maybe 235 (with potential to climb a little), avarage people might do 175 and noobs maybe 50. Level 1 etc would be for like my Grandmother, aka INSANELY easy. That way, there would be a level for everyone.

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This is the comment I'm going with. I think a lot of people are going to be bored and a lot of people are going to love it because they like slow.

Claiming that timing was a thing in vanilla or thinking ahead and saying that isn't part of modern raiding shows that someone isn't raiding. You can't tunnel a rotation in todays raids like you could back in the day. It will be interesting to see how everyone reacts.

If you raid today, going back none of the bosses will be hard for you, they'll be time consuming to over come things like resistance gear and just having overall health and numbers while getting 2 pieces of gear a boss for a 40 man raid. Lots of arbitrary time gates in Vanilla. Which is fine if that is what you like is slow.

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Vanilla is really gear dependent, just not in the way you're thinking.

I raided all through vanilla. Mechanics were easy, rotations was easy, the challenge was to have good enough gear, and to have endurance to rebuff and just maintain stuff. Basically, the opposite of how raiding should be. It was fun at the time, but gear should be the least important factor.

[Fahrenheit]

You did more damage as a feral druid in caster form swinging a 2h mace with a boatload of STR and AGI on it than you did in cat form actually using abilities. Not even lying, in early WoW, like before Dire Maul or BWL came out, that was the truth.

[Zoldor]

Well, that's why you need more levels of M+ etc. Lets say there are 250 levels. Very smart bots that play completely flawless could do 250 (max), Method people and other pro would be around maybe 235 (with potential to climb a little), avarage people might do 175 and noobs maybe 50. Level 1 etc would be for like my Grandmother, aka INSANELY easy. That way, there would be a level for everyone.

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I raided all through vanilla. Mechanics were easy, rotations was easy, the challenge was to have good enough gear, and to have endurance to rebuff and just maintain stuff. Basically, the opposite of how raiding should be. It was fun at the time, but gear should be the least important factor.

Agreed. It was basically a time gate through the use of gear. As a lot of the resistance gear patterns were drops from other places along with the mats. Instead of ilvl people asked how much Fire/Frost/Nature resist you had before you could get into a raid that wasn't guild preformed. You could raid for months and land very few pieces of gear, hence why DKP was a huge thing in Vanilla. If it was all based on rolls of dice you could actually be unlucky enough to see zero gear. I love modern raiding by comparison.

Raiding in Vanilla was a totally different monster and seriously time gated and really more of a facebook social circle style. If you had the right friends you could speed things up because they'd hook you up over someone else in the guild. This is where all the complaints about IRL friends and the "raid leaders GF" getting gear over the people who actually could play their class, because you could really carry people who couldn't play as long as they had the proper gear and could handle one don't stand in it mechanic. It wasn't until maybe late TBC/Wrath people started to notice "oh shit if you can't do the mechanics we can't win these fucking fights, we can't just steam roll it with gear." Essentially around the time hard mode was created and Ulduar dropped. Saw a lot of guilds start shitting the bed then as their players couldn't complete raids because it turned out they sucked even when you gear stacked them and the mechanics ramped up. It would have happened more in BC but a lot of people in those style raids couldn't see those raids because of the gating system.

I remember during Vanilla/BC era a lot of people had those bejeweled addons they'd play during raid....try that now. Hell even look at the chat logs during a raid from that era, filled with conversation while the boss battle was going on.

I'm not saying the raids were bad, or the time was bad or the game was bad. Just that it is delusion of folks saying Vanilla raiding was harder or playing your class was harder. It wasn't because you didn't actually have to fully perform to the max like you do today to down some encounters. And no Mythic raider today will be challenged by Vanilla raiding. If they are in a guild on a Classic server like their current Mythic raid guilds and sync the same amount of time, the content is going to drop quickly. Even the general population will see more of the content, we are way more savvy players today than we were then. Efficient as well and the community is huge. Before when only a few guild members were doing max effort, now you'll have an entire guild doing organized mat and pattern farming instead of one guy in guild has the resistance pattern you need. You'll see entire sections of you guild with it. Drop gear will be the most difficult part of going back to Classic and you'll have to start a DKP system again or your guild will flounder.

Hell I can remember having to look in global chat for people to do enchants because no one I knew personally had the enchant. You could make money sitting in Org doing enchants. People would pay you and provide mats for you to click the craft button. The only time I buy an enchant now is when I absolutely want it that second and no one happens to be on. etc.

[Deleted]

The credibility of someone who can't count, is nill.

The credibility of a liar is also nill.

Great argument!

[keyboardshinobi]

for example.

i agree with "Video Games", check any vanilla boss kill, people are running around, whispering each other or other friends outside of the raid. I know it is true from my own exp

OMG i forgot how boring Raiding actually was back then.

[Wewlad]

Modern rotations are much more complex and so are the fights themselves.

Vanilla raiding was brain dead easy. Easier than LFR. That's the truth. The major challenge was attunements and farming consumables.

Most of the mechanics comprise busywork (interrupts, move into X or out of Y, etc.) that you're prompted to respond for.

The majority of modern raiders wouldn't be able to handle the Twin Emperors or even fucking Baron Geddon (the latter at least without an addon or someone having to message them to move because they don't have BIG POPUP WARNING). More niche mechanics that require consideration AHEAD of the encounter itself rather than just reacting to basic shit that's just dumped on you akin to a laundry list.

Modern rotations are so proc-based you might as well just be pressing 1 button for some specs. At least in WotLK there were more proper rotations where you aren't relying so much on RNG for dem proc popups.

[Echocho]

I raided all through vanilla. Mechanics were easy, rotations was easy, the challenge was to have good enough gear, and to have endurance to rebuff and just maintain stuff. Basically, the opposite of how raiding should be. It was fun at the time, but gear should be the least important factor.

I disagree with you here. It's a RPG after all and character progression is a big part of that genre, I think it should be an even split between you and your character, you both have to overcome the encounter. TBC, Wrath and even Cata was very good in that sense.
But yeah the mechanics and the rotations of vanilla was laughably easy, anyone claiming otherwise is either lying, delusional or both.

[Veyne]

"Vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons" – and!?


You think memorizing a 5-7 button rotations is hard? Not It's not and most people do it while leveling…
there is nothing hard or impressive about memorizing a 5-7 button rotation.
This is dumbest thing I've ever heard; It literally takes 5 hours to master it.

While in Vanilla and TBC! You had to think ahead and manage your resources –that is what actually takes skill– and doing that would take months
you would have the illusion that you've mastered your class, but you didn't.


Key things that you are missing when you think about vanilla
– Resource management
– Timing
– Thinking ahead
Which are not vital to game right now at all or not present altogether…

Vanilla & TBC gameplay was more strategy and RPG like, while modern wow is flat out action game.

Classic and TBC class gameplay was much simpler than it is today. Raid mechanics were much simpler than they are today. Difficulty was mostly a matter or organization and statistics.

And if you think modern World of Warcraft is a "flat out action game," you're absolutely, 100% mistaken. Of all the major modern MMO's that are still kicking, it is absolutely one of the slowest and methodical and the gameplay even today is extremely antiquated.

[avx81]

I am talking about both PVP and PVE

I am arguing that long rotations are not something impressive as they take less than a day to master, however, people constantly bring them up when talking about vanilla. Sure if you like them then have fun Idc but action games are probably more suited for you.

Vanilla, whether it was harder or easier, had totally different mechanics to the point where it's a completely different game: RPG

It required different set of skills while modern wow require you to spam rotation and to get out of the fire or stand in some circle in a boss fight
Vanilla required you to track your resources, timing, buffs, optimize boss de-buffs, and threat.

If you don't think playing now requires tracking resources or timing buffs then you have not played at anything above LFR level. LFR leaves such a bad impression on people. If you want to get a decent parse on warcraft logs I promise you that you cannot be brain dead and mindlessly press buttons. I have seen people who think they are good but they have gray or green parses on every boss compared to their ilvl. Why do you think most successful pug groups look at logs instead of just your achievement? It's easy to get a carry these days. I have played through everything but c'thun in AQ40 in vanilla and about 50% of naxx 40 before my Vanilla guild broke up. I played as a warrior that would tank and dps. I also played as a mage but I did little raiding on him. You could literally close your eyes and still perform.

Most bosses in Vanilla raids had no complexity to them. A lot of classes and specs had almost no rotation that they had to think about. The only thing that made Vanilla raiding hard was getting 40 people together, getting proper resist gear and potions and just gearing in general because far less gear dropped for much larger groups.

People make classic out to be like it was the best expansion. A lot of classes and specs were broken. Warriors were pretty much the only tanks. You had faction imbalances (shamans on horde and paladin on alliance). Bosses that required little or no real strats to kill. You had to worry about threat in Vanilla but that also meant just standing there twiddling your thumbs. That's not a challenge.

Classic WoW is almost definitely going to fail.

[Jastall]

whoever says "vanilla rotation was only 1-2 buttons"

never played vanilla and like the current WoW development teams fails to understand a massive important issue.

Raiding is NOT 100% of WoWs content. Vanilla actually had spells outside of just cooldowns and instant cast spells.

Do hunters still scatter shot/ ice trap mobs like they did in Zul Gurub? Rarely if ever.

Concuss shot/wing clip to kite mobs etc? Not everything has to be "OMG DAMAGE" sometimes stunning the mob about to kill a healer is more important, like back in vanilla.

The game was much more well rounded and enjoyable. Not only was there more enjoyable content outside of raids where your class spells were helpful but the other content was challenging because your class wasnt a 5 button class so they can tune mythic raid encounters into a ping pong fight where you dart around from soak to soak and made the class bare bones so players can still achieve/complete the higher complexity in one raid difficulty instead of balancing out class complexity so all content is more interesting.

Someone hasn't done M+ or the last few tiers of raiding I see. Class utility nowadays is at least as good, if not often better than DPS. That's why high keys favor rogues over other melees, not because they do more damage but because of their insane class tookit. Same for raids like Tomb where rogues were bottom tier DPS but chosen en mass because they could soak shit while classes with higher theoretical DPS couldn't and just died.

But hey, you keep thinking that because a warrior can Warbreaker into Bladestorm in faceroll Heroics to temporarily crush everyone on the meters means they are the best at everything and the game revolves around that.

[RobertoCarlos]

Someone hasn't done M+ or the last few tiers of raiding I see. Class utility nowadays is at least as good, if not often better than DPS. That's why high keys favor rogues over other melees, not because they do more damage but because of their insane class tookit. Same for raids like Tomb where rogues were bottom tier DPS but chosen en mass because they could soak shit while classes with higher theoretical DPS couldn't and just died.

But hey, you keep thinking that because a warrior can Warbreaker into Bladestorm in faceroll Heroics to temporarily crush everyone on the meters means they are the best at everything and the game revolves around that.

rofl rogues werent even brought to the high level key runs when blizz hosted a M+ comp.

I think you're the one that didnt pay attention.

Ill give you a hint, aoe stuns and silences are good. Rogues dont have either.

[Jastall]

rofl rogues werent even brought to the high level key runs when blizz hosted a M+ comp.

I think you're the one that didnt pay attention.

Ill give you a hint, aoe stuns and silences are good. Rogues dont have either.

And have been nerfed, so now as far as melee goes unless you're willing to use a monk you deal with targeted stuns/silences which rogues excel at. We're not in Legion anymore.

And you didn't address the main point either way. DPS pales in comparison to utility in high tier content. And 5-mans are a relevant progression path today which they absolutely weren't in vanilla unless you think T0.5 sets were the real deal. Thus your arguments don't reflect reality much.