I don't really want lfr to be released...

[Mr chub]

I really don't know why people find this such a hard concept to grasp. Ignoring LFR, less people raid than dont. There are also many more "casuals" than hard core raiders. Now I am not calling "normal mode" raiders hardcore - that would be silly. There are many casuals in normal mode raids. However it is still the case that less people raid (in normal or above) than those that only raid lfr or none at all. Blizzard is a business. They have to answer to share holders. Many share holders couldn't give a jot about the game - they are only interested in the bottom line. If a large amount of money is spent on raids - that money cant be used elsewhere (makes sense you cant duplicate money). If those raids are seen by a large proportion of the players then its easier to justify. If only a few see them then its hard to justify the expense. If players are starting to leave the game, and that money is still being spent on a small percentage it's even harder to justify. However if you can somehow incorporate more players into raid zones and keep them even slightly happy (slightly happy being: not leaving the game) then this is money well spent.

Money is spent on developing the game in a way that is envisaged to keep as many players there as possible. Money isn't spent on a minority (at least most of it isnt). Raids for 10 or 25% of the player base would have less funding as they would have to spend some of that money on making other content for them to keep them from leaving.

No, this doesn't always work.
Yes, people still leave the game - but if they didn't work at this then there would be far more.
No, it's not a perfect solution

Would not a better solution be to return to a tbc style model? One were the game outside of raiding focused on the world and dungeons to a greater degree? For the sake of argument let's say you are right (you well could be) and time played and percentage played influenced how many resources content would be given.

Why not work around that then? Stripe down raids most of them really dont need more then a series of rooms and a scaled up mob to be a boss. Think gruuls lair it had everything a raid needed. Take the slavaged budget and invest it into dungeons. I dislike the weird argument that the entire game need to be polaxed to allow lfr its survival. To be clear from what I commonly see it is a near consensus that lfr lives not from its content but from its rewards...

It might be time to have a bit of faith in the game and take a long look at how it is currently structured. If content only stands on its feet from a skinner box style reward system I would dare say it needs to be reworked.

[Deleted]

I really don't know why people find this such a hard concept to grasp. Ignoring LFR, less people raid than dont. There are also many more "casuals" than hard core raiders. Now I am not calling "normal mode" raiders hardcore - that would be silly. There are many casuals in normal mode raids.
However it is still the case that less people raid (in normal or above) than those that only raid lfr or none at all. Blizzard is a business. They have to answer to share holders. Many share holders couldn't give a jot about the game - they are only interested in the bottom line. If a large amount of money is spent on raids - that money cant be used elsewhere (makes sense you cant duplicate money). If those raids are seen by a large proportion of the players then its easier to justify. If only a few see them then its hard to justify the expense. If players are starting to leave the game, and that money is still being spent on a small percentage it's even harder to justify. However if you can somehow incorporate more players into raid zones and keep them even slightly happy (slightly happy being: not leaving the game) then this is money well spent.

Money is spent on developing the game in a way that is envisaged to keep as many players there as possible. Money isn't spent on a minority (at least most of it isnt). Raids for 10 or 25% of the player base would have less funding as they would have to spend some of that money on making other content for them to keep them from leaving.

No, this doesn't always work.
Yes, people still leave the game - but if they didn't work at this then there would be far more.
No, it's not a perfect solution

No there would be actualy far more pople playing and raiding of LFR would be removed. LFR.is outdated system. It came out in cata when Blizz didnt had 2 difficulty levels what are alredy easy enough with flex size. Current game would do much better without LFR. I actualy know more people what drop raiding for LFR than what LFR bringes into raiding. Also LFR brings more bad than good. It is toxic system.

One more thing. You are not majority. People thee days have no clue how this work.

Audience is more like this:
1. 34% bottom casuals - LFR heroes
2. 30% casuals - normal/ heroic raider
3. 20% semi casual - taps into mythic
4. 5% semi harcore - mythic
5. 1% hardcore - top mythic guilds

So LFR pleases 34% of playerbase for sake kf alienating rest of 56%.

[Mattelot]

No there would be actualy far more pople playing and raiding of LFR would be removed. LFR.is outdated system. It came out in cata when Blizz didnt had 2 difficulty levels what are alredy easy enough with flex size. Current game would do much better without LFR. I actualy know more people what drop raiding for LFR than what LFR bringes into raiding. Also LFR brings more bad than good. It is toxic system.

One more thing. You are not majority. People thee days have no clue how this work.

Audience is more like this:
1. 34% bottom casuals - LFR heroes
2. 30% casuals - normal/ heroic raider
3. 20% semi casual - taps into mythic
4. 5% semi harcore - mythic
5. 1% hardcore - top mythic guilds

So LFR pleases 34% of playerbase for sake kf alienating rest of 56%.

Good morning. Where did you acquire those statistics? Does that source contain other statistics for this game?

[Mr chub]

Good morning. Where did you acquire those statistics? Does that source contain other statistics for this game?

There are some sites that comb through achievements and give you summarized results. Not perfect since alts exist but just from eye balling it I wouldn't say his numbers are all that off.

[Mattelot]

There are some sites that comb through achievements and give you summarized results. Not perfect since alts exist but just from eye balling it I wouldn't say his numbers are all that off.

Are these sites giving actual good data? Or is it a cogshanks effect where it's best guess?

[Eleccybubb]

Are these sites giving actual good data? Or is it a cogshanks effect where it's best guess?

It's an "asspull effect".

[Deleted]

Good morning. Where did you acquire those statistics? Does that source contain other statistics for this game?

It isnt statistics. It ia general idea how is wow playetbase divided. Some people think it is 95% casual (lfr users) and 5% rest. No it isnt.

[glowpipe]

Good thing that no one really gives a brown lump about what you want then.

[Eleccybubb]

It isnt statistics. It ia general idea how is wow playetbase divided. Some people think it is 95% casual (lfr users) and 5% rest. No it isnt.

Nobody fucking thinks 95% make up the casuals or LFR raiders.

Jesus christ.

It's a majority but it most certainly isn't 95% majority.

On topic Uldir opens next week so I'll probably try for a Normal clear then run LFR for the most part. Definitely sifting alts through LFR this time.

[Mattelot]

It isnt statistics. It ia general idea how is wow playetbase divided. Some people think it is 95% casual (lfr users) and 5% rest. No it isnt.

Ok, that's what I was curious about... if they were real numbers or made up.

In that case, I think LFR satisfies 95% of players and alienates 5%.

[Deleted]

We will see BFA LFR drop 340 itemlvl gear and there are no legendary drops and ap wont be worth it. So thats good start atlest. Hipe blizz wo t add mandatory rewards to boost participation.

[Stormgnoef]

Why does it matter now?there is no tier set in lfr now so there is no reason for raiders to do it.Let Ppl who want to do lfr do it and just ignore it.

[Eleccybubb]

We will see BFA LFR drop 340 itemlvl gear and there are no legendary drops and ap wont be worth it. So thats good start atlest. Hipe blizz wo t add mandatory rewards to boost participation.

It's not "a start" at all. It's just business as usual with LFR.

If they ever do a legendary again similar to the ring/cloak there will be a way to obtain it through LFR. The ring/cloak was designed in a way everyone can get it but it takes time to do. Which is fair. Better than restricting a weapon to a single class that you might not play imo.

I mean I hope we go back to that legendary system because it's like FF14's where you work on an item of power over the course of the expansion.

The ring never forced you into LFR because it shared the item save with Normal and Higher. Which was good design. Plus I'm pretty sure higher difficulties had the better drop chance. I remember getting a lot more clusters in BRF Normal/Heroic than my LFR alts did.

[Deleted]

Well i hope rhis lehendary system will never return. Becouse first it isnt legendary item really if anyone can get it. Second that legendary item becomes mandatory to havr. Right now nothong points out towards it but we still.got 3 patches atleast.

[Pregnant Orc]

Well yeah it is true. But if you want to tell yourself it's not then feel free to. Just means you are wrong.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ine-Blue-Posts

LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content. Only a few thousand people actually saw Kel'thuzad, but millions saw Deathwing. The reason Mists of Pandaria is starting with 18 bosses and adding larger raid tiers than we have had previously is because many players are going to see the raids through LFR.

I'd argue that Ion isn't completely fair in his statements in that link. A few thousand saw Kel'Thuzad while millions saw Deathwing is true but LFR is far from the only thing that changed between them. If you wanted to fight Kel'Thuzad in vanilla you had to go through all the previous tiers. There was very little in terms of catch up mechanics to help speed that up, TBC brought in badges to help with speeding that up and WotLK completely changed the raid tier system from a linear A->B->C->D progression to a two tier system of a farm and a progression tier. If you joined late WotLK you never had to step into Naxx or Ulduar to get into ICC. ToC was lowered in terms of difficulty to make it more of a catchup for ICC than something you had to progress through.
A much better comparison would have been between how many saw the Lich king vs Deathwing as here we can see what the introduction of LFR actually did on its own.

It's likely a large bump but not at the scale some people make it seem

[Soxoffender]

Yes I can. Log into the game. Do a normal dungeon. Notice the ilvl of the rewards. Now do a heroic. Notice the ilvl of the rewards. Now do a mythic. Notice the ilvl of the rewards. Here's a hint. The higher the difficulty, the higher the ilvl of the reward. In case you can't quite make the correlation: higher difficulty gives better rewards. Objectively, not subjectively.

A WQ is always easier than anything (even LFR) and mine are currently giving me gear better than Normal dungeons or Heroics. Later in the expansion we'll almost certainly find that Normal Raid items will be better than drops from Mythic Uldir and that WQs will be updated so that they give gear at a higher level than you can get (outside of crazy TF procs) from anything right now. I can even go and buy a full set (minus Azerite slots) of 350 gear from the AH today just by spending gold I passively made through Garrison and Order Hall missions in WOD/Legion or with gold from tokens if I didn't want to dip into that.

The absolute hardest difficulties reward the absolute best gear but it's always been a mixed bag below that.

It's often been catch up gear but rewards from easier content has been going on in WoW since at least the introduction of badges in BC that allowed people to run nerfed Heroics and Kara to get T5 quality items. I honestly don't know how anyone can think LFR is a more egregious an example of giving out gear for free than Emblems in Wrath dropping from sleepwalking through the easiest dungeons in WoW's history and doing a "Raid Quest" in full T9 to go and kill a single Naxx boss that people had previously downed in a mix of blues and gear from the previous expansion.

It's an "asspull effect".

There are sites that track achievements but the ones that I've seen are slightly flawed sources of data for this sort of thing because they can only deal in character numbers not player ones, so alts can muddy the water a bit and obviously it can't take into account things like people buying achievement carries.

This seems to be checking all current 120s and a third have at least one Heroic Argus kill, so Sinndor *might* be right about those splits even if there's a lot of guesswork there.
https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/glo...category-15271

The bigger issue with his use of stats is assuming that everyone bar LFR heroes hold exactly the same opinion about it.

[Deleted]

Why does it matter now?there is no tier set in lfr now so there is no reason for raiders to do it.Let Ppl who want to do lfr do it and just ignore it.

There is still lot of cons what have effect on general playerbase. You cant just say dont like it dont do it. Question of ,,does LFR brings enough good reasons to stay in the game"? is still there.

[Deleted]

Right now the way the game is... feels right. Sure there are minor problems here and there but at the moment everything feels balanced and in tune. Content is rewarding at all levels of play from world quests to mythic dungeons. Rep rewards actually offer some decent rewards and no matter what you do everything feels like it matters.

...Must lfr come and shatter this? What if for a change it just... didn't? What if mythic dungeons stayed as the proving ground and people with the desire to just slowly filtered into normal? I know this likely can't happen and spring must always end but I find it frustrating. Why must we return to the cycle of simply afking through lfr when without it the game seems so much richer and deep?

Bro I have been in your place till this expansion when i realized i would never be able to find a raiding guild with a schedule to suit me because of my job. For the first time after 10 years of WoW I will only do quests/world quests/heroics maybe 1 or 2 mythics/ ANYTHING that involves "QUE" with random people. TO be honest...for the first time I am grateful for having LFR as I will be able to see ULDIR. Indeed, my experience wont be as difficult and entertaining as yours but i will get to see the architecture/the mobs/the idea of bosses.
PS: remember on TBC when casual people were stuck on Karazan and Gruul pugs just because t5 raids required a solid group/a guild.

[Deleted]

There is still lot of cons what have effect on general playerbase. You cant just say dont like it dont do it. Question of ,,does LFR brings enough good reasons to stay in the game"? is still there.

the answer is YES

the answer has been given a gazillion times with a myriad of reasons, you are just not willing to accept them so you keep claiming the answer is still up in the air.

[Leadsop]

Right now the way the game is... feels right. Sure there are minor problems here and there but at the moment everything feels balanced and in tune. Content is rewarding at all levels of play from world quests to mythic dungeons. Rep rewards actually offer some decent rewards and no matter what you do everything feels like it matters.

...Must lfr come and shatter this? What if for a change it just... didn't? What if mythic dungeons stayed as the proving ground and people with the desire to just slowly filtered into normal? I know this likely can't happen and spring must always end but I find it frustrating. Why must we return to the cycle of simply afking through lfr when without it the game seems so much richer and deep?

I don't understand.

In my town there is a Subway. I hate food from Subway like the plague. You know what I do? Not get on the internet and bitch about Subway. I just drive past it and don't eat there.

How is having a LFR in the game hurting you so much that you need to bitch about it when you can just ignore it?