I will admit that I now believe beta testers had it right. (class mechanics)

[Rascal Bob]

So I think most of us heard the warnings during beta, testers/content creators were worried that some specs felt clunky/not as good as in legion. I kind of ignored everything, I even managed to avoid the lore or other information before the launch, and thus I have had a great time since launch and the story was pretty good (especially Alliance for me, but I play bothso please don't hate me. Bwonsamdi is probably one of my favorite additions this exp.)

Now raiding is a few days away, we have all acquired our gear and are busy getting enough gold to buy the ridiculously priced fish and herbs of BfA.
Currently I have a frost mage at 344 ilvl and a rogue who I just started gearing since Thursday at 326 ilvl. Both classes I played in legion and both of them I enjoyed a lot. The more I play the more I miss the legion variant.

Mage
While everyone was playing fire in Emerald nightmare I had gone the frost route, I loved playing around with rune of power and ray of frost for some insane burst with timewarp while still being able to talent into thermal void for that sweet extended icy-veins. I also loved the fact that you had some non rng ways of generating quite a bit of FoF procs(ebonbolt, pet freeze/jet, etc.) Together with chain reaction and some other traits I felt like I had an really enjoyable spec which performed really wel, even to my surprise at the beginning. Anyways I had loads of fun with it. (I switched to rogue just before the change to ebonbolt to proc flurry instead of FoF.) I usually switch every few raids to keep everything interesting and fun.

Now if we compare this to BfA.
I'm gonna say that on AoE not that much has changed, but on single target you really start to notice the difference, especially after running mythics for 3 weeks. I miss my chain reaction, ray of frost and a ice lance spam/long icy-veins combo build. Now I spend my time casting frostbolts hoping to get a flurry proc whenever I have my glacial ready to go(this can get quite frustrating when ebonbolt is on cd.) Anyways its still decent but we kind of shifted from a single target monster to a AoE boss.

In short I still have fun on large AoE pulls but not on bosses, I don't have to think about chain reaction and for optimal dps I don't need ray of frost which is a former shell of what it was anyways. The talent setup I used in Legion required quite a bit of knowledge of the fight and wasn't just me mindlessly spamming frostbolts all the time fishing for procs. It was quite a bit more challenging, the only challenging thing I have now is remaining calm when I don't get a flurry proc after casting the 6th or so frostbolt or praying that the target lives a bit longer so my glacial spike can still land and finally add a bit of my dps on a single target fight. Like I said AoE is still quite fun although it's far from challenging. Also the chain reaction we have now isn't as good as the old one that provided a 50% max damage increase I believe vs the 30% we have now. Being able to maintain chain reaction during burst moments could make or break your dps quite a bit in Legion and now it's converted to a talent that's weaker and not worth taking because the other two outperform it.

Rogue
After my mage and the rework in 7.2(was it 7.2.5?) or should I say the return of the old subtlety feel I picked up my rogue again and I was glad blizzard did this since I enjoyed my rogue again in both PvP and PvE. Sub wasn't as hard as it has been in the past but it felt quite fulfilling trying to mass all your damage in that one lovely ability Death from Above. Now not only did we lose finality but we also lost DfA and it has become pvp only.

In BfA we lose a lot of the thinking we had to do, we no longer have to keep the finality buff(when you cast a finisher the next same finisher deals increased damage) in mind which was quite a big thing since it made the fight more interesting because you had to line up your finality eviscerate buff with DfA and all your other cooldowns that needed some skill/knowledge of the fight. Again stuff I like, it was great fun and eventually after some practice not even that hard after a bit of practice as it was sometimes made out to be.
Now I haven't played my rogue that much yet or at least not compared to my mage but I'm far more bored doing my rotation now then I was in Legion.


Now my question kinda is, have most of you guys felt the same way after throwing away your artifact on some of your classes/specs and playing with it for a bit? Or did you maybe like the fact that they changed it up a bit, I like somewhat complexer rotations so I'm definitely biased. Or have there been specs that are still great fun and I might need to check out? I was personally thinking of maybe leveling my hunter as survival next but I'm sure I will find something new that might interest me for a bit longer.

Now I do realize that we were thrown to death with warning threads etc during beta and just before launch but I haven't seen a thread discussing what everyone thinks after the expansion launched and everyone has had a chance to play it or maybe I'm blind and I've missed it. Anyways have a good night I'm off to bed.

[Mafic]

Take a guess what I think about Battle for Abilities and fisher price class design?

If it wasn't for players speaking up Sub wouldn't have had the mid expansion Legion rework. Sub Rogue would be a spec missing shadow step when the 'class fantasy" was shadow ninja melee lol. I mean they even pruned Blind from the spec at one point.

Bottom line is Legion Sub lost a lot of complexity from WoD Sub. And BFA Sub is even more simpler than Legion Sub.

As for frost mage...you watch Venruki play in BFA and you see him cringing compared to how it was played in Legion. Night and day difference.

Blizzard doesn't understand that MMORPG players do care about cosmetics stuff but they also care about core mechanics. Allied races are great cosmetically but you still need to have new talents and skills for an expansion. You need to bring specs forward and not backwards.

And the GCD pretty much guts specs that have low APM while it rewards high APM specs aka Rogues.

[Varolyn]

I honestly prefer BfA sub over any iteration of Legion Sub but I wayyyy prefer legion assassination compared to BFA assassination. GCD change really didn't hit rogues that hard imo. Well, it kind of makes outlaw feel clunky since BF is on it, but at least BF isn't toggle crap it has been since MoP.

Finality really wasn't that big of a deal, as you didn't really have to pay attention to it and even if you did, it ended up being a small gain. In fact the whole sub artifact was lame, only trait that really did anything meaningful was energetic stabbing, and I guess the fall damage one cause it was pretty cool. I really don't like loss of control abilities, so DFA could go, and it turned sub too much into a one-tick pony spec anyway. Blizz should make Secret technique more viable for ST though.

[Sergio]

Funny you're talking about frost mage, as a fire mage main i can assure you the changes are even worse.

What we lost from the end of legion:
Phoenix flames no longer baseline, just shoved into the talent tree making us choose between it and our best talent, flame on.
Pruned version of leggo belt effect now competing with firestarter
Pruned version of leggo bracer effect competing with kindling/meteor
Combustion back down to 10 seconds
No decreased cd on phoenix flames from ignite
Shimmer cd increased
I'm also sad we don't have anything available that matches the effect of the legendary helm, as it was really fun to use. Paradoxically, alextrazas fury is still a talent competing with flame on and PF, even though it is quite literally worthless without the leg helm effect.

What we gained:
Azerite traits, which as of yet change gameplay ~0%

So we basically just lost a ton of shit and gained NOTHING in return. Overall this just ends up meaning we have significantly slower and less satisfying gameplay. I really don't understand why blizzard made so many gameplay changes in BFA that literally no one was asking for.

[GreenJesus]

Holy has all of our healing cooldowns on the GCD.. it feels horrible. Avenging wrath, Holy avenger, AURA MASTERY. Aura of sacrifice was basically removed and it's no longer a healing cooldown.. it's just a shitty devo aura now. Aura of sacrifice gave the spec a lot more nuance and a higher skill cap.. I guess blizzard has to remove higher skill cap possibilities.

[styil]

Take a guess what I think about Battle for Abilities and fisher price class design?

If it wasn't for players speaking up Sub wouldn't have had the mid expansion Legion rework. Sub Rogue would be a spec missing shadow step when the 'class fantasy" was shadow ninja melee lol. I mean they even pruned Blind from the spec at one point.

Bottom line is Legion Sub lost a lot of complexity from WoD Sub. And BFA Sub is even more simpler than Legion Sub.

As for frost mage...you watch Venruki play in BFA and you see him cringing compared to how it was played in Legion. Night and day difference.

Blizzard doesn't understand that MMORPG players do care about cosmetics stuff but they also care about core mechanics. Allied races are great cosmetically but you still need to have new talents and skills for an expansion. You need to bring specs forward and not backwards.

And the GCD pretty much guts specs that have low APM while it rewards high APM specs aka Rogues.

The worst part is they'll probably add a couple of Boring Shores as patch content, gloss over the substantive issues and call it the most successful expansion to date.

[Mafic]

The worst part is they'll probably add a couple of Boring Shores as patch content, gloss over the substantive issues and call it the most successful expansion to date.

They are going to ride the same formula thinking they will replicate Legion. But what they fail to realize is they gutted the reward structure of legion and regressed back to WoD's raid or die mentality.

If Blizz all of sudden decides to turn up the knob of HP scaling of mobs with every raid tier release it leave non raiding players at a huge disadvantage if they fall behind gear.

This is why it is my hypothesis why they keep LFR in the game as they know it would be a deathblow to ilevel scaling of NPCs as casual players would quit in droves if they can't feel any progression.

[ninthbelief]

Take a guess what I think about Battle for Abilities and fisher price class design?

If it wasn't for players speaking up Sub wouldn't have had the mid expansion Legion rework. Sub Rogue would be a spec missing shadow step when the 'class fantasy" was shadow ninja melee lol. I mean they even pruned Blind from the spec at one point.

Bottom line is Legion Sub lost a lot of complexity from WoD Sub. And BFA Sub is even more simpler than Legion Sub.

As for frost mage...you watch Venruki play in BFA and you see him cringing compared to how it was played in Legion. Night and day difference.

Blizzard doesn't understand that MMORPG players do care about cosmetics stuff but they also care about core mechanics. Allied races are great cosmetically but you still need to have new talents and skills for an expansion. You need to bring specs forward and not backwards.

And the GCD pretty much guts specs that have low APM while it rewards high APM specs aka Rogues.

Blizzard doesn't give a shit about people liking cosmetics, either. They cut tier sets this expansion. There are 3 sets of Allied Race weapons in the files that are completely unusable for players but on every single NPC of their race. Ion blew off the entire High Elf conversation in a way that let it continue to this very minute and it'll be like that for the rest of eternity because of the lore explanation behind Mag'har.
Classes are bad, combat is bad, cosmetic things are at an all-time-low in exchange for being spit in the mouth by Blizzard and Ion, and since EVERYTHING is timegated now more than ever if you are even 1% interested in ANYTHING this game has to offer you're gonna be paying for sub time anyway.
I hate the way corporations are run, I hate this activision garbage, I hate Blizzard caring more about money and subs than just making an enjoyable game. Even if people had spoken up about any of these things in Beta, they would've been dismissed by the community because "its just beta haha who cares", and then dismissed by Blizzard because "it's not live yet haha give us a minute".
The whole system is a joke on an unprecedented level.

[Deleted]

Even without gear problems LFR is an necessary evil. You don't need weeks anymore to finish every zone and major story is only told in raids. As a result people would be bored or have an even more noncohesive story.

[Rascal Bob]

Take a guess what I think about Battle for Abilities and fisher price class design?

If it wasn't for players speaking up Sub wouldn't have had the mid expansion Legion rework. Sub Rogue would be a spec missing shadow step when the 'class fantasy" was shadow ninja melee lol. I mean they even pruned Blind from the spec at one point.

Bottom line is Legion Sub lost a lot of complexity from WoD Sub. And BFA Sub is even more simpler than Legion Sub.

As for frost mage...you watch Venruki play in BFA and you see him cringing compared to how it was played in Legion. Night and day difference. That's pretty much how I feel on single target.

Blizzard doesn't understand that MMORPG players do care about cosmetics stuff but they also care about core mechanics. Allied races are great cosmetically but you still need to have new talents and skills for an expansion. You need to bring specs forward and not backwards.

And the GCD pretty much guts specs that have low APM while it rewards high APM specs aka Rogues.

"class fantasy" Blizzard really made me hate that word. Back in MoP(When I started to PvP a lot) I liked so many classes and specs, now I can only really play a few in PvP and PvE. I never got the whole shadowy class design they gave us in legion, there was nothing wrong with the old spec but it could've used some graphic updates. Then they used that as a way to redesign the spec, something that wasn't done since forever and people loved that fact because we still had mostly all of our abilities. Sub wasn't a popular spec because it was slightly harder to play from your average spec but you need that in your game to cater to the people who are looking for such a spec in my opinion.

My rogue has been one of the main characters I play since Cata, I think they had the better end of the stick going into WoD compared to most pruning back then. But going into legion I just couldn't bring myself to play Sub, that was the first time I started the expansion off on a different character. I think that coming from WoD a lot of specs improved with the artifact weapons in terms of play style, rogue was simplified but only because it was mostly left alone in the pruning before I think.

I'm probably gonna make a lot of alts just to see all the specs/playstyles and hope that one can catch my attention for a while or I won't be able to play this expansion for multiple raid tiers.

I honestly prefer BfA sub over any iteration of Legion Sub but I wayyyy prefer legion assassination compared to BFA assassination. GCD change really didn't hit rogues that hard imo. Well, it kind of makes outlaw feel clunky since BF is on it, but at least BF isn't toggle crap it has been since MoP.

Finality really wasn't that big of a deal, as you didn't really have to pay attention to it and even if you did, it ended up being a small gain. In fact the whole sub artifact was lame, only trait that really did anything meaningful was energetic stabbing, and I guess the fall damage one cause it was pretty cool. I really don't like loss of control abilities, so DFA could go, and it turned sub too much into a one-tick pony spec anyway. Blizz should make Secret technique more viable for ST though.

Yeah I guess finality was only a margin of your damage, I think it was 15% or something like that. But still it added some depth to what I needed to do and therefore I like it. Btw I do get you on the loss of control feel, one of the reasons why I couldn't bring myself to play sub anymore because of the constant teleportation on shadowstrike and the non bursty playstyle. Also I have met my death by falling numerous times without my artifact.

Blizzard doesn't give a shit about people liking cosmetics, either. They cut tier sets this expansion. There are 3 sets of Allied Race weapons in the files that are completely unusable for players but on every single NPC of their race. Ion blew off the entire High Elf conversation in a way that let it continue to this very minute and it'll be like that for the rest of eternity because of the lore explanation behind Mag'har.
Classes are bad, combat is bad, cosmetic things are at an all-time-low in exchange for being spit in the mouth by Blizzard and Ion, and since EVERYTHING is timegated now more than ever if you are even 1% interested in ANYTHING this game has to offer you're gonna be paying for sub time anyway.
I hate the way corporations are run, I hate this activision garbage, I hate Blizzard caring more about money and subs than just making an enjoyable game. Even if people had spoken up about any of these things in Beta, they would've been dismissed by the community because "its just beta haha who cares", and then dismissed by Blizzard because "it's not live yet haha give us a minute".
The whole system is a joke on an unprecedented level.

Man I'm really gonna miss tier sets. It could change your playstyle a bit going from raid to raid which was nice. Also the timegating is very noticeable on professions, you can only make one crafted item every 2 weeks. I don't really follow the allied races conversation as I'll usually play a competitive race, like Blood elves were with the extra interrupt for mythic keys. Maybe I'll look up the lore explanation of mag'har orcs to see what you mean. Also I think the community gave indeed tons of feedback and mostly negative and there wasn't done anything much with it. I really hope that one day they'll start listening early on in beta and maybe make multiple iterations of a spec and not just change it to something and then barely touch it at all until launch. A spec like subtlety shouldn't have needed a rework mid expansion but they should have changed it before legion even launched. I feel like often they just want to stick to their guns and slap some word on top of it, legion was class fantasy and wod was savage or something. Almost like they take negative feedback to changes they've made personal and therefore don't like what the community is saying and then just ignore it.

- - - Updated - - -

Funny you're talking about frost mage, as a fire mage main i can assure you the changes are even worse.

What we lost from the end of legion:
Phoenix flames no longer baseline, just shoved into the talent tree making us choose between it and our best talent, flame on.
Pruned version of leggo belt effect now competing with firestarter
Pruned version of leggo bracer effect competing with kindling/meteor
Combustion back down to 10 seconds
No decreased cd on phoenix flames from ignite
Shimmer cd increased
I'm also sad we don't have anything available that matches the effect of the legendary helm, as it was really fun to use. Paradoxically, alextrazas fury is still a talent competing with flame on and PF, even though it is quite literally worthless without the leg helm effect.

What we gained:
Azerite traits, which as of yet change gameplay ~0%

So we basically just lost a ton of shit and gained NOTHING in return. Overall this just ends up meaning we have significantly slower and less satisfying gameplay. I really don't understand why blizzard made so many gameplay changes in BFA that literally no one was asking for.

As I've never played fire since MoP I can't comment on the changes but I think blizzard added to little with azerite traits and took to much away with artifact weapons.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Even without gear problems LFR is an necessary evil. You don't need weeks anymore to finish every zone and major story is only told in raids. As a result people would be bored or have an even more noncohesive story.

I dunno, I feel like tons of story happened in the class hall quests., and now the war campaign.

[Deleted]

Holy has all of our healing cooldowns on the GCD.. it feels horrible. Avenging wrath, Holy avenger, AURA MASTERY. Aura of sacrifice was basically removed and it's no longer a healing cooldown.. it's just a shitty devo aura now. Aura of sacrifice gave the spec a lot more nuance and a higher skill cap.. I guess blizzard has to remove higher skill cap possibilities.

Yeah I just started picking up Holy Paladin for M+ this expansion and it's almost annoying having so many cooldowns when all of them are on the GCD.

Class design in BfA is an abomination. Everyone is looking to Shadow, Elemental, Enhancement as broken specs and they are, but right behind them in the 'awful but not completely broken' category are things like Marksman Hunters, Fire Mages, Prot Warriors.

[Deleted]

@Lemonpartyfan I'm not denying that. There is a lot of story in it for sure. Do you think it would take you a month if you did those quests back to back without running dungeons or raids? That's something I doubt.

Certainly being inexperience plays a role but I do remember that leveling used to take longer. That's not necessarily a good thing in itself but I also remember that I was busy without running dungeons and raids. An extreme was MoP with a ton of dailies but they also kept you busy while not running raids or dungeons and also allowed you some form of progress. Assuming you don't do dungeons or raids and you kept the current pace of people (so you almost got your reputation maxed) what kind of progression could you do an what reason would you have to login before 8.1 hits?

Again, just to make this clear, I'm not saying that anything about the current design is bad (at least not this time ). What I want to point out that WoW tries to funnel you into either M+ or raids. If you touch neither you just don't have that much to do in comparison. It's just something that has changed and it's part of the reason why I think that LFR and LFD are necessary. In addition relevant story has been "hidden" in them for quite some time. Which is another reason to make it accessible to people that (for whatever reason) can't or won't participate in regular raiding/m+ but are still interested in seeing what's up with WoWs story.

[Thraps]

Of course classes are going to feel clunky after legion.

Perfect example is the example preacher makes with fire mage.

All the little things that a fire mage had, heal with blink, scorch belt, etc etc changes game play and that was interesting and made you think differently about how you played in different situations.

Every class has examples where this happened where traits and abilities changed the game play, from what seemed very small had a huge daily impact on how you played.

Now we have gone back to a system where classes are very barebones, this doesnt mean it will stay like that, it gives blizzard a blank slate to improve the classes to fit the BFA model with Azewwrite armor and future systems they may impliment. One system that springs to mind from legion was the Netherlight Crucible, whos to say there is not something in the pipeline coming in BFA that will change class game play significantly. Whos to know really.

Personally whinging about it right now 3 weeks into the xpac is kind of pointless. The xpac has yet to evolve and we have Blizzcon right around the corner where we will see what Blizzard has in store for us regarding the xpac and class development.

[Rascal Bob]

Of course classes are going to feel clunky after legion.

Perfect example is the example preacher makes with fire mage.

All the little things that a fire mage had, heal with blink, scorch belt, etc etc changes game play and that was interesting and made you think differently about how you played in different situations.

Every class has examples where this happened where traits and abilities changed the game play, from what seemed very small had a huge daily impact on how you played.

Now we have gone back to a system where classes are very barebones, this doesnt mean it will stay like that, it gives blizzard a blank slate to improve the classes to fit the BFA model with Azewwrite armor and future systems they may impliment. One system that springs to mind from legion was the Netherlight Crucible, whos to say there is not something in the pipeline coming in BFA that will change class game play significantly. Whos to know really.

Personally whinging about it right now 3 weeks into the xpac is kind of pointless. The xpac has yet to evolve and we have Blizzcon right around the corner where we will see what Blizzard has in store for us regarding the xpac and class development.

Yeah everyone seems to agree to the fact that artifact weapons left quite a hole in some specs, some more then others. But if beta wasn't the time to start questioning blizzards way of fixing it and now live isn't the time to ponder on whether they did a good job or a bad one then when are we to show the fact that we don't like what they have done? By your logic we shouldn't offer feedback at all since who knows in patch 8.2 we might get something shiny like the nether-light crucible. My attitude towards "Hoping blizzard changes things for the better in due time" has kind of changed over the years. Feedback is necessary and still often ignored or we feel that we get ignored by blizzard.

On top of the fact that all artifact traits were already there to begin with, netherlight crucible enhanced those existing traits and added some passive stuff. The core gameplay of each spec did not change nor did they add anything but more rng to acquiring the best gear. The core gameplay was already established at the start of legion, only we did not have all of our traits yet. Also if I was really whining about the small stuff then you'd know it but I'm just worried and I think quite a few with me about the core design being quite weak for so many specs. I even think rogue got the better end of that deal and there are specs far worse out there.

[Thraps]

Yeah everyone seems to agree to the fact that artifact weapons left quite a hole in some specs, some more then others. But if beta wasn't the time to start questioning blizzards way of fixing it and now live isn't the time to ponder on whether they did a good job or a bad one then when are we to show the fact that we don't like what they have done? By your logic we shouldn't offer feedback at all since who knows in patch 8.2 we might get something shiny like the nether-light crucible. My attitude towards "Hoping blizzard changes things for the better in due time" has kind of changed over the years. Feedback is necessary and still often ignored or we feel that we get ignored by blizzard.

On top of the fact that all artifact traits were already there to begin with, netherlight crucible enhanced those existing traits and added some passive stuff. The core gameplay of each spec did not change nor did they add anything but more rng to acquiring the best gear. The core gameplay was already established at the start of legion, only we did not have all of our traits yet. Also if I was really whining about the small stuff then you'd know it but I'm just worried and I think quite a few with me about the core design being quite weak for so many specs. I even think rogue got the better end of that deal and there are specs far worse out there.

BY my logic we shouldnt offer feedback, i do not think i even said that, suggested it or insinuated that. The point is that over time the artifact system developed. AT the start of legion is was a pretty base spec, very similar to now with nothing apart from getting the traits as you grinded along the path on the weapon. so having everything at the start of legion wasnt a common thing for the majority of the player base.

We was spoilt during legion for class development, that is a pure fact. We have now gone back to a time to how classes were pre Legion and obviously it is going to leave a hole in gameplay. However we have no idea whats in the pipeline for class development, even Watcher has said there wasnt enough time to get it all done for launch, which is bad form from Blizzard, and they are likely to be finished for 8.1.

Now i encourage all feedback to go to Blizzard, of course i do its what may make the game even better. But what is not constructive is whinging and touching on a subject with hate and foul language and other ways people seem to want to rage. You need to go to the OFFICIAL forums and present your argument in a constructive manner in depth and angle it from your own personal experiences in the game.

The core design may be weak in your opinion and i may or may not agree, however you dont exactly go into anything on why you think its weak. Except for Legion all other content in WoW from all other xpacs have been the same sort of style and class design, Like i say Legion was a exception. The problem is that when they introduced Artifact weapons and the system of the traits, that made sense to the fantasy design. It made the Artifacts unique which they should be. The problem they have now is they couldnt realistically take them traits forward as that was part of the Artifact weapon fantasy and doesnt fit the fantasy of the Azerite neck or just baking them all into classes. There challenge is to bring new ideas forward that makes sense to the BFA fantasy.

I agree Blizzard should have done better but whinging about it in a very broad way doesnt get the point across to Blizzard. Majority of the posts on the official forums are trash posts are about this and very little are very constructive. I participated in the Alpha/Beta and provided constructive feedback, what i dont know is what got read and what didnt. Still I instead of whinging about it, look to the future to see what maybe implemented and the future systems that maybe implemented into BFA like they did in Legion.

People in the game are always looking back and not looking forward enough, everyone wants there cake and eat it. The people who make the game are only human and mistakes and regrets that they didnt do this and that will happen, its just a part of life, but alot of people in the community expect far too much sometimes.

[Rascal Bob]

BY my logic we shouldnt offer feedback, i do not think i even said that, suggested it or insinuated that. The point is that over time the artifact system developed. AT the start of legion is was a pretty base spec, very similar to now with nothing apart from getting the traits as you grinded along the path on the weapon. so having everything at the start of legion wasnt a common thing for the majority of the player base.

We was spoilt during legion for class development, that is a pure fact. We have now gone back to a time to how classes were pre Legion and obviously it is going to leave a hole in gameplay. However we have no idea whats in the pipeline for class development, even Watcher has said there wasnt enough time to get it all done for launch, which is bad form from Blizzard, and they are likely to be finished for 8.1.

Now i encourage all feedback to go to Blizzard, of course i do its what may make the game even better. But what is not constructive is whinging and touching on a subject with hate and foul language and other ways people seem to want to rage. You need to go to the OFFICIAL forums and present your argument in a constructive manner in depth and angle it from your own personal experiences in the game.

The core design may be weak in your opinion and i may or may not agree, however you dont exactly go into anything on why you think its weak. Except for Legion all other content in WoW from all other xpacs have been the same sort of style and class design, Like i say Legion was a exception. The problem is that when they introduced Artifact weapons and the system of the traits, that made sense to the fantasy design. It made the Artifacts unique which they should be. The problem they have now is they couldnt realistically take them traits forward as that was part of the Artifact weapon fantasy and doesnt fit the fantasy of the Azerite neck or just baking them all into classes. There challenge is to bring new ideas forward that makes sense to the BFA fantasy.

I agree Blizzard should have done better but whinging about it in a very broad way doesnt get the point across to Blizzard. Majority of the posts on the official forums are trash posts are about this and very little are very constructive. I participated in the Alpha/Beta and provided constructive feedback, what i dont know is what got read and what didnt. Still I instead of whinging about it, look to the future to see what maybe implemented and the future systems that maybe implemented into BFA like they did in Legion.

People in the game are always looking back and not looking forward enough, everyone wants there cake and eat it. The people who make the game are only human and mistakes and regrets that they didnt do this and that will happen, its just a part of life, but alot of people in the community expect far too much sometimes.

I might have gotten a bit agitated, but I don't like it when people just call something whining if they don't really agree. I mean whinging basically means to complain in a negative way right?(English is not my first language, but in other words whining) I think my post wasn't that positive about the current design but it sure wasn't just all whining. I even listed all the things I'm missing right now in BfA, which is quite a bit better constructed than most of the shitposts you can encounter. Honestly I'm just looking for a class/spec that really excites me again, I think my OP makes that quite clear and on top of that kinda share my current thoughts on the two specs I've played and see what other people think.

And I will agree that Legion was mostly good in class design although that isn't too hard when you are coming from WoD where the major pruning happened. I still think the legion sub rogue after revamp was worse then the MoP variant. So no we weren't exactly spoiled but it was definitely a step forward in terms of class design, or at least in my opinion. What I'm pointing out is the fact that even though you didn't have those traits at the start of Legion you could at least see what they did, something to grind and work toward. The azerite gear/neck legendary had to replace the artifact weapons( a thing that they should have seen coming since they knew way ahead they were getting rid of said weapons.) Now all we're saying is that I don't see the things that might improve my spec in the same way legion did. Most traits are passives and the active ones that make you hardcast a flurry for example are underwhelming in both performance and playstyle. I just find it odd that so few of the traits got baked into the specs when the replacement system isn't exactly on par with its predecessor

And I think the things watcher was hinting at were improvements to broken specs like Prot warrior or feral(friend of mine is a prot warrior and feels vastly inferior to other tanks.) But I don't know that for sure. And maybe you have a few of those outliers in every expansion but it shouldn't extend to quite a lot of the specs. Up until WoD I mostly felt like they always expanded your spec by adding stuff and it's true that that couldn't go on forever but there is also no reason to just remove stuff because a new expansion is about to begin.

I think it's human nature to look back on things, I mean all the elderly think it was all better in their own days. Our job or at least what we should do as players is offer feedback on the changes that are made/current game and all we can mostly do is to compare it to before. And yeah if we can see that it might still change for the better like the artifacts kinda showed us then yeah that's all still pretty good. But right now we can't, and yeah something might change but that doesn't mean we can't voice our concerns and share our thoughts on a wow oriented website.

[Dristereau]

It's only now we're hitting 120 we're are starting to see the full effects due to the loss of Legiondaries and very powerful gear. I know a lot of it was passive, but the traits in the Artefacts really made each spec play very differently even if they were similar, changing the power of some abilities or how they were used. Icebound Fortitude as UH/Frost is a great example of this; Whilst it is active on Frost, your Death Strike healed for massive amounts but for UH it was just stronger by a chunk. These little things are noticeable now especially when you hit 120 and most of the mobs you slaughtered at 111 have come back with a vengeance. Little things like a range on Frost Strike are missed and we now rely more on decisions for damage, cc and healing compared to Legion with our gear. In that regard the GCD is frustrating for cooldowns and stuns as DPS and it makes them awkward and contributes to the feeling of clunky-ness.

I'm still hoping Azerite Armour will make a reasonable difference in the Azshara raid which would be Legions Nighthold and replicate set bonuses. Also some class changes coming in 8.1 will give a better idea of things to come but yeah, I do agree the majority of specs don't feel as enjoyable as they did in Legion.

[Deleted]

You had more toys by the end of legion.

I won't say BfA is better, but it can get better. It most definitly isn't the drama some people made. There's nothing new in this front. Baseline, the classes are better than Legion. When you add set bonuses and legendaries, Legion had more. The expansion isn't over and it's up to the devs to come up with creative bonuses for the artifact gear.

[Mafic]

People knew that classes were in bad shape back in BFA alpha aka January.



Bottom line is players have to quit in droves before Blizz actually puts effort in class design again.