Why is the Horde prefered by those in it?

[Obelisk Kai]

But why do you think he's an unrealistic doofus? Both the Horde and the Alliance have the same magic users and a lot to bond over. The only actual racial conflict is really convoluted and forced to make this expansion work. It's also the older characters, the ones with old grudges, that keep it going. The younger characters like Anduin and our dear zappy boy don't have those burdens.

As someone who lives in the north of Ireland, comments like this make me chuckle. Perhaps it's why I am more accepting of the Horde-Alliance conflict, despite why certain players can't get their heads around the seeming illogical nature of it. Because believe it or not, it is absolutely true to life.

Let me tell you, hatred for the other is insidious and is easily transmitted from generation to generation and no amount of incomprehension by an outsider or 'letsgetalongerism' from those within the respective groups but who wish to push the past behind them is enough to tamp down that hatred. Just because people in opposing groups have commonalities does not mean they are suddenly going to prioritize those commonalities over their grievances against the other group.

[Noomz]

The problem is that Alliance perspective.

'Why can't we all be friends' isn't really the Alliance perspective. It's Anduin's perspective and as events have shown, Anduin is a naive child who has ended up as leader of the Alliance through being born to it than having earned it and due to his Dad dying before he could mature and adopt a more realistic perspective.

In reality, Sylvanas's dialogue with Saurfang in 'A Good War' lays out the Horde perspective of the Alliance.

'I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city. I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.” There was a smile on Sylvanas’s face. It was not a pleasant one.

“I believe the Darkspear tribe hasn’t forgotten who drove them from their islands,” she continued. “I believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps. I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin. I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Alliance'

No matter what fine words Anduin says, the truth is he leads an Alliance of races who quite liked the world the way it was before the Horde came along. A world where the Trolls were savages pushed farther to the edges by the march of Human civilization.Where Tauren fought merely to survive against constant Centaur attack. Where Orcs weren't even known. A world content to let the Blood Elves die rather than deal with their magic addiction. A world they want to recreate. A world without, and I quote the words of the previous Alliance leader that was delivered straight to the face of the then warchief 'your twisted Horde'. Anduin doesn't want to acknowledge the hate that pulses through the Alliance for the Horde, he wants to pretend it isn't there or isn't a big deal.

The Alliance is all for peace, on it's terms and once it's supremacy is guaranteed. The Alliance believes itself to be on the side of the angels. The Horde knows the Alliance to be hypocritical, privileged and innately racist yet completely incapable of perceiving it's flaws (compared to the self reflection the Horde regularly goes through such as during Garrosh's reign or the reaction of Saurfang).

The Horde isn't the better faction. But we are the more honest one.

The only thing Anduin has been naive about was Sylvanas. That's it. Nobody likes Sylvanas apart from her enthralled lover Nathanos. Nobody wants her. Nobody wanted this war. It's all in Sylvanas and that's what Anduin was naive about.
Sylvanas is wrong! What she believes is not true! In that latest book, even Genn comes to accept that the Forsaken can be allies.

She says all these things and yet SHE is the one that instigates further conflicts! She is the one that propagates MORE hatred! She is the one that doesn't want to let these grudges die, because she benefits from it and she wants to turn all the living in the Alliance into Forsaken.
Anduin and the Alliance arranged the meeting between the Forsaken and their living relatives, in good faith. It went great, until the Menethil girl decided to try and literally ssave the Forsaken by letting them come with them. That's when Sylvanas attacked them and killed ALL OF THEM. That's what she was planning, she wanted to KILL the people that had hope and kill the people who were in favor of reconciliation. Even freaking Genn Greymane ends up thinking it's a good idea!

There is no hypocricy!

By going to war, AGAIN, Sylvanas has solidified prejudice against the Horde. Don't you see her manipulation in all of this? How long do we hold on to these grudges and mistakes? How long does the past control the future? It makes no sense! What Sylvanas belives is twisted and hateful. Not even Saurfang wants to follow her anymore and he's so destroyed by it that he says to the Horde player that he hopes they never have to make the choice between loyalty and honor.
The world has changed but Sylvanas hates it, because the more at peace the world becomes, the more people realize that she is the problem.

[Deleted]

So why is it that the Horde still exists? What keeps the races banded together? From an Alliance perspective.

We want freedom and not fall under a high kings rule that makes the choices for us.
You of the Alliance are living under a dictatorship and we saw that in WC3 when the High Elves needed to follow orders even if that resulted into a massive death count on their race just to protect the humans.

[Noomz]

As someone who lives in the north of Ireland, comments like this make me chuckle. Perhaps it's why I am more accepting of the Horde-Alliance conflict, despite why certain players can't get their heads around the seeming illogical nature of it. Because believe it or not, it is absolutely true to life.

Let me tell you, hatred for the other is insidious and is easily transmitted from generation to generation and no amount of incomprehension by an outsider or 'letsgetalongerism' from those within the respective groups but who wish to push the past behind them is enough to tamp down that hatred. Just because people in opposing groups have commonalities does not mean they are suddenly going to prioritize those commonalities over their grievances against the other group.

But Ireland stepped away from that conflict. There's no war anymore. There's no bombings. Because the young people realized that they don't fucking want to inherit a conflict. Commonalities have won over grievances.
Now look at the races of Azeroth and consider all the literally world shattering things they've been through together and dealt with together. As I've said to others, Sylvanas is the sole propagator and inciter of this war.

[Kwento]

There’s a simple answer to this. It’s just that people tend to forget the timeline and how recent were more reasonable conflicts between factions.
There aren’t a lot of orcs left who took part in the Second War and were an active part of the demonic Horde. Most of the orcs you see in game are those born on Azeroth, born in chains for the sins committed by their fathers. Viewed as monsters that humans actually argued weather to keep alive in camps as animals, or simply slaughter. Such childhoods give a certain perspective on life...
Darkspears were hunted and killed by Kul’Tiras forces since the very first time we’ve heard about them. As far as we know, there was no reason behind that, just desire to kill trolls which is very prevalent in Alliance, starting from elves who consider them abominations, humans who have “trollhunters” as a job option and even draenei (that wonderful quest in Plaguelands) who view troll religious beliefs a reason to pluck out their eyes.
Blood Elves think that humans betrayed them, and for a good reason. Their race was almost executed by the remnants of the Alliance during the Third War...
Forsaken are only now starting to get some small form of reconciliation with their living relatives. It’s all well and good but how many years the same people saw them as monsters to burn..? It doesn’t go away just because a few humans decided to walk with a few Forsaken in a field.
Bilgewater goblins were first blown up with their ship and then stalked through the jungles by Stormwind forces. The reason why they joined the Horde so easily is because the Alliance did everything they could, at the time, to kill them on spot.
Now with tauren you need to remember one thing... Not all tauren are like Baine. I hope not, at least. Some do remember their lands invaded by humans, tribes wiped out by dwarves and towns built on tauren corpses. Look up Stonespire tribe.

There are a LOT of reasons for the Horde to hate the Alliance. It doesn’t take too long to look those up, but Blizzard failed to show these reasons ingame, instead using new things like Azerite and Sylvanas being a moron.

Oh yeah, also to add before blue boys start swarming around... Plenty of reasons for the Alliance to hate the Horde too.

[Sluvs]

What slave races are in the Alliance?

Which of the two factions do you swear a blood-oath to ask "How high?" when it's leader tells you to the jump and which of them allows you to leave whenever?

Which faction was literally created to conquer Azeroth and which one to defend it?


"Why do the humans still see us as invaders?"
*Proceeds to try and conquer Azeroth for the third time*

"Why does the Alliance dislike us?"
*Proceeds to continue invading neutral kingdoms, setting up death camps and raising the living into undeath*

The Alliance gave the Horde yet another shot after SoO and then proceeds to do exactly the same thing less than an expansion later (Ashran) and people still seem to think Horde are the misunderstood victim. If you stab people to death multiple times, get let out of prison and then go and do exactly that the second you're freed, you don't get to cry 'B-BUT PREJUDICE' when they go to arrest you.

Oh please, to believe that we are BOUND to the oath is insanity, we already broke it with Garrosh and even inside the horde we have turmoil rising, this idea that we are just silently obeying while having no doubts whatsoever is objectively false. And to compare the old horde, the one fueled by the legion, and the current horde is simply dishonest.

Let's not pretend that humans are not racists here, okay? Trollbane call the orcs green skins right out of the bat and other members of the alliance call the entire horde savage all the time. It's also not fair to say that the horde does not have good reason to hate them, they made internment camp for the orcs, refused to even talk to the forsaken leader, left the blood elves to chance a few times now and the list goes on.

So don't pretend that the alliance is a bastion of peace and justice. The horde is no saint either, they fucked up SEVERAL times too, the alliance and the horde deserve each other, and that is precisely the point.

[Arrashi]

Horde doesn't have humans in it. And isn't lead by anduin. These are all the reasons you need.

[Jervaise]

The main reason is that the extremists in Alliance doesn't want them to exist. So they bond together. That's what common enemies do to unwanted minorities.

Sylvanas thinks she can save the Horde from its demise by simply attacking first.

That's why her entire reasoning for war is "How is war going to be in 50 years? How about 100? Let's end it - end them, now."

What she doesn't take into account is that when the common enemy is vanquished, the Horde will turn against each other. They will lose their only significant bound.

[Noomz]

We want freedom and not fall under a high kings rule that makes the choices for us.
You of the Alliance are living under a dictatorship and we saw that in WC3 when the High Elves needed to follow orders even if that resulted into a massive death count on their race just to protect the humans.

But Sylvanas makes the choices for the Horde. There's no freedom in it. They obey or they die. It's the rule of strength, that might makes right. How in the world can that be freedom? Sylvanas doesn't care about what the others think, she walks all over them and they've no choice.
What dictatorship? The Alliance is a choice. Nobody is forced to do anything. THere are no threats and no fear. If an Alliance race doesn't want to participate in war, if they can't or have objections to doing something, they have the CHOICE not to be part of it.

Yeah and now we see Blood Elves calling us "lowborn scum" and participating in the wanting murder of civilian populations. They Horde is no absolutely no position to act like they've a moral high ground.

[Obelisk Kai]

But Ireland stepped away from that conflict. There's no war anymore. There's no bombings. Because the young people realized that they don't fucking want to inherit a conflict. Commonalities have won over grievances.
Now look at the races of Azeroth and consider all the literally world shattering things they've been through together and dealt with together. As I've said to others, Sylvanas is the sole propagator and inciter of this war.

Once again, I live there. You think a peace treaty ends our age old struggle? The results of that peace treaty are a cold peace where each side of the divide has consolidated what is 'theirs' and where we can't even operate the institutions set up by the peace treaty, as mistrust between the respective parties has collapsed and we have no government. Hatred is alive and well and capable of erupting again into violence if the right circumstances allow it.

Now that's a depressing real life parallel, but it is one I deploy to point out the central problem with your argument, that the war between the Alliance and the Horde is unrealistic given what they've been through and dealt with. It is not. Hatred is a powerful motivator.

If you want a bigger example, the Communist Soviet Union and the capitalist United States co-operated together to defeat the monstrosity that was fascism...and after that was ended would probably have gone to war with each other if nuclear weapons hadn't constrained them through mutually assured destruction.

I find your insistence that warfare and hatred are unrealistic perplexing when literally all of our history shows that they are our constant companions.

[Aeula]

Because the Alliance is bland And their society is homogenised to the point where everyone’s a different shade or height of Human. They’re not the kind of people I’d want in a position of power.

[Noomz]

The main reason is that the extremists in Alliance doesn't want them to exist. So they bond together. That's what common enemies do to unwanted minorities.

Sylvanas thinks she can save the Horde from its demise by simply attacking first.

That's why her entire reasoning for war is "How is war going to be in 50 years? How about 100? Let's end it - end them, now."

What she doesn't take into account is that when the common enemy is vanquished, the Horde will turn against each other. They will lose their only significant bound.

What extremists? None of the Alliance leaders wanted war. Anduin didn't want war. By the sound of it, Saurfang and Baine didn't want war either.
There would be no genocide of the Horde races, because their modus operandi isn't murder.
Sylvanas and Sylvanas alone, started this war that nobody wanted.

That's also true, there's so much tension between some of the Horde races that without external threat, they'd leave one another or outright turn on each other. Again, Sylvanas is calculating all this.

- - - Updated - - -

Because the Alliance is bland And their society is homogenised to the point where everyone’s a different shade or height of Human. They’re not the kind of people I’d want in a position of power.

I can't agree with that at all. They're very different to one another. From gnomes to the space aliens Draenei, to the druidic accidents the Worgen, there's nothing homogenous about the Alliance. There's shamans, druids, light users, void users and so on. What's homogenous about that?

[Dagoth Ur]

But why do you think he's an unrealistic doofus? Both the Horde and the Alliance have the same magic users and a lot to bond over. The only actual racial conflict is really convoluted and forced to make this expansion work. It's also the older characters, the ones with old grudges, that keep it going. The younger characters like Anduin and our dear zappy boy don't have those burdens.

We've the Cenarion Circle, the Earthen Ring, the Argent Dawn and so on. We just had an expansion where we all banded together, which is like...well I don't remember how many times we've done that by now.

I didn't mean to excuse this expansion's somewhat shaky premise. It's just that I think Anduin is just too naive and has a bit of an overly idealistic outlook on the world.

I mean Warcraft is on really tight timeline and everything bad that happened between factions is still pretty fresh in people's memory. And even though she's an other extreme and has an overly grim and pessimistic outlook on the world , what Sylvanas said in Good War makes sense. For example, how could Horde ever expect Glienans to forgive them for ruining their kingdom and exiling them? Or more recent, how could Horde ever expect night elves to forgive them for burning of Teldrassil? There's just too much bad blood and lack of trust between the factions for an in-universe characters to think of this as realistic imo.

As for Legion, I guess it only showed us that we're willing to put our differences aside when there's an immediate threat to our very existence. Joining up inside neutral organizations made sense considering Horde and Alliance were in disarray after Broken shore and there wasn't much time for factions to regroup. Now that there's no immediate threat to our world, Horde and Alliance are back to each other's throat and the cycle of hatred continues.

[Arrashi]

I can't agree with that at all. They're very different to one another. From gnomes to the space aliens Draenei, to the druidic accidents the Worgen, there's nothing homogenous about the Alliance. There's shamans, druids, light users, void users and so on. What's homogenous about that?

That they all serve humans.

[Noomz]

Once again, I live there. You think a peace treaty ends our age old struggle? The results of that peace treaty are a cold peace where each side of the divide has consolidated what is 'theirs' and where we can't even operate the institutions set up by the peace treaty, as mistrust between the respective parties has collapsed and we have no government. Hatred is alive and well and capable of erupting again into violence if the right circumstances allow it.

Now that's a depressing real life parallel, but it is one I deploy to point out the central problem with your argument, that the war between the Alliance and the Horde is unrealistic given what they've been through and dealt with. It is not. Hatred is a powerful motivator.

If you want a bigger example, the Communist Soviet Union and the capitalist United States co-operated together to defeat the monstrosity that was fascism...and after that was ended would probably have gone to war with each other if nuclear weapons hadn't constrained them through mutually assured destruction.

I find your insistence that warfare and hatred are unrealistic perplexing when literally all of our history shows that they are our constant companions.

It begins the end of it. And I don't believe you think that working towards further peace and breaking down such mistrust ain't the best course of action. It takes generations before these things go away.

I feel like that is happening in Warcraft as well, the beginning of the end of that conflict. Of course, some will want to perpatuate it because they benefit from it or they just can't let go, but more and more eventually come to realize they want none of it. Sylvanas move in regards to that, was to outright kill everyone that wanted reconciliation. Her own people. Even the ones that ran back to the wall, not from it, were murdered, because that's what she had plotted all along.

That's what perpetuates this conflict. Lies and manipulations. So much so, that the Horde is once again crumbling from the inside.

[Rafoel]

I still don't quite understand what makes the Horde still...well, exist. Sylvanas aludes to how the Tauren might as well join the Alliance. And honestly, I don't see any reason why the Alliance would be hostile towards the Zandalari if the Horde weren't actively seeking to incorporate them.

So why is it that the Horde still exists? What keeps the races banded together? From an Alliance perspective, we really could've all just have been friends.
Even within the Alliance it's entirely the choice of the leaders of each faction if they want to support the Grand Alliance or not. War is a choice. In the Horde, you obey or you're gonna get killed.

Zandalari helped Gurubashi during Cataclysm, and Gurubushi are ancient enemies of Stormwind. And most importantly - they are trolls, and trolls are ancient enemies of humans, being the most numerous titanic and non-titanic races on Azeroth. They are hostile per default. Huge efforts on both sides would have to be taken in order to bring their relations even close to neutrality. And Zandalari never showed any interest in such efforts, on the contrary.


As for specific races of the Horde:

1) Orcs are basically aliens. They have 0 common ground with humans, and history of war and violence. Some of those who fought in 1st war are still alive. There is ZERO chance they would unify.

2) Trolls were kind of covered already.

3) Tauren are just trying to survive. They live close to orcs, but far from alliance lands. Orcs helped them in the past, so they allied with them, and were treated fairly. Being honorable, they will remain in the horde unless the other members turn against them.

4) Undead joined "alliance of convenience", to quote vanilla intro. Alliance will never accept them - on the contrary, made all possible efforts to eradicate them. They can't survive alone. They need the Horde.

5) Blood Elves HATE Night Elves, and very strongly, its very well described in pre-BfA short stories. They will NEVER join ranks with them. That's the main reason for them being allied to the horde, despite being allied with alliance in the past. Oh, and fact that Garithos treated them like rats when they were vulnerable doesn't help.

6) Goblins are amoral in nature, and are also in odds with gnomes. It makes more sense for them to work with the Horde than Alliance. Mind you, I'm sure that if Horde was to lose the war they would probably change sides quickly.

[The Stormbringer]

That they all serve humans.

Can you blame them? Human potential is far too powerful for them to do otherwise.

[Noomz]

That they all serve humans.

In what regard? Because Anduin is human? Again, they're there by choice. The Alliance members all benefit from one another and if one needs it, the others are there for them. Humans are simply the most numerous and thus the most prominent.

Unlike the Horde? The Horde that now has it's honor and pretty much every other value they have in highest regard pissed on by Sylvanas. And what can they do about it? Nothing. Serve or die.

[Rhlor]

I still don't quite understand what makes the Horde still...well, exist. Sylvanas aludes to how the Tauren might as well join the Alliance. And honestly, I don't see any reason why the Alliance would be hostile towards the Zandalari if the Horde weren't actively seeking to incorporate them.

So why is it that the Horde still exists? What keeps the races banded together? From an Alliance perspective, we really could've all just have been friends.
Even within the Alliance it's entirely the choice of the leaders of each faction if they want to support the Grand Alliance or not. War is a choice. In the Horde, you obey or you're gonna get killed.

in the horde there is the mak'gora you can kill the warchief, the problem to day is the bad writing. the current writers know nothing about the lore and then ask forgiveness on twitter when they make a mistake

[yamix]

Because my friends play Horde. It's that simple.

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't quite understand what makes the Horde still...well, exist. Sylvanas aludes to how the Tauren might as well join the Alliance. And honestly, I don't see any reason why the Alliance would be hostile towards the Zandalari if the Horde weren't actively seeking to incorporate them.

So why is it that the Horde still exists? What keeps the races banded together? From an Alliance perspective, we really could've all just have been friends.
Even within the Alliance it's entirely the choice of the leaders of each faction if they want to support the Grand Alliance or not. War is a choice. In the Horde, you obey or you're gonna get killed.

The Alliance was already hostile to the Zandalari. The Horde recruited the Zandalari by rescuing their princess that was taken captive by the Alliance and was rotting in the stockades.