YEY Let's raid another HORDE capital (spoilers).

[Mehrunes]

I mean Jaina does have titan power in her staff....

No. No she does not. Wrathion got the spark of Aman'thul from Lei Shen. Which was then stolen by the Legion. Jaina got the power of thin air and false rumors.

To be fair the Horde does have a bad habit of starting fires that it inevitably gets burned in... like Theramore, or Teldrassil.

Kinda the point in the end.

The Horde starts wars it cannot win, its not the fault of the Alliance it provoked a sleeping Lion into action.

What are you on about? Theramore happened 3 years into the war. Which was started by Alliance. And they were losing it on almost every front until the Horde imploded in a civil war. And even then the Alliance needed to ally with one side to defeat Garrosh, didn't retake any of the lands lost to the Horde AND officially ceded Azshara. What a sleeping lion you got there

As someone who plays both sides, honestly, the Horde deserves to loose Zandalar as a tradeoff for the literal countless quantity of times the Alliance has lost something in Wow to the Horde.

- Theramore to Garrosh.
- Teldrassil to Sylvanas.
- Gilneas to Sylvanas again.
- Lordaerons retaking to Sylvanas plague.
- Suramar becomming a Horde city aswell as Thunder Totem.
- Nethergarde Keep to the Iron Horde.
- Ashenvale to The Horde.
- Darkshore to the Horde.
- Bolvar at the Wrathgate to the Forsaken.
- Silverpine to the Horde in Cataclysm.
- Southshore to the Horde in Cataclysm.
- Western Plaguelands to the Forsaken in Cataclysm.
- A mana bombed night elf school in Cataclysm, of innocents.
- Alliance has lost Dalaran to neutrality.
- Alliance lost Varian, Bolvar, Liam Greymane and Deleryn Summermoon to the Horde.

Then we compare the Horde ratio:

- Lordaeron Sieged in Wrath, but not taken, by both forces.
- Camp Taurajo lost to the Alliance.
- Horde plagued with a self-inflicted civil war again with Garrosh.
- Horde forces have held nearly every territory they've had civil feuds over.
- Horde lost Nazgrim to the Alliance or Horde depending on the game, who comes back as a Death Knight anyway.
- Horde's most major loss aside from Undercity has possibly been civil wars with itself, but it has never once *Lost* anything major to the Alliance.

So yes, you are due a major loss to the Alliance, and Zandalar is a fair trade.

These lists aren't dishonest in the slightest.

Yes, let's count losses to Iron Horde for the Alliance.
Let's count Alliance "losing" Suramar and Thunder Totem even though they were never Alliance.
Let's count Bolvar (twice) as lost to Forsaken/Horde even though Putress already joined the Legion at the time.
Let's count a complete random new character like Delaryn for the Alliance, but not any new random characters for the Horde (like Dreven for example).
Let's count Varian as lost to the Horde even though he was killed by the Legion (while not counting Vol'jin).
Let's add "attacked but not taken" disclaimer to Undercity in Wrath, while counting Darkshore as lost to the Horde despite it being the next Warfront, meaning it's still being fought over.

I mean, the near-infinite intellectual honesty of these lists aside, you're not exactly proving Alliance's status as a sleeping lion here.

[Xykotic]

It's actually really funny how Alliance players were considering the Battle for Undercity a victory when Blizzard themselves don't agree. Ally players on suicide watch.

Well, they did establish during that cutscene that Jaina could just magically sweep away all of the blight. So presumably most Alliance players figured she'd just spend half an hour cleaning up Undercity for re-use. But I suppose she ran out of magic maid juice which they forgot to explain?

[Fewane]

As a Horde main, I'm very fine with the raid. It has quite good ways of taking the story onwards, and the raid concept with faction-differing bosses and content is something new. Plus it is good finally seeing the Alliance doing something on their own initiative and not as a reaction. More things like this, please!

[Deleted]

So after everyone moaning about the horde being the agressors again Blizzard decided to make the Alliance be the agressors and... that's a bad thing?

The problem is, when Horde is the aggressor, we never actually get to raid an Alliance capitol. The closest thing we got was a video of Sylvanas burning Teldrassil. While Alliance have been attacking Undercity twice (scenario + BfA event), and also raided Orgrimmar. Horde being the agressor is only a plot device for the Alliance, so they can go down on some places.

[CaptainV]

- Iron horde was crafted by Garrosh's escape in Warcrimes, Garrosh was the former leader of the Horde, by his extention, it would still count.
- Why the Nightborne had a reason to turn on their own people is a baffling one to say the least, the situation at Thundertotem I can practically understand.
- Delaryn wasnt entirley new, your argment is flawed.
- Varian did loose to the Horde abbandoning him at the battle of the Broken Shore, yes, its true they had a very justified reason, but its pretty fair game to assume Sylvanas was quite *happy* to let the Alliance take its losses too.
- Undercity twice has been attacked neither once has been taken, Darkshore was lost to the Horde, and the Alliance is now attempting to retake it, again, yes, you deserve to get a hit.

And the fact you're pointing out they didnt retake lands lost to the Horde kinda prooves my point, so for someone trying to speak of intellectual dishonesty your preaching ignorance to a wise man.

That aside, I wont be baited further by this game.

The fact is the Horde is a faction that has lost nothing in terms of territory, iconic heroes maybe, but nothing major in terms of actual landmasses.

And it is far beyond time they lost iconic locations and landmasses to actually feel the impact of loosing something, they have worn the plot armor of wow for over 15 years.

[Magnagarde]

The funniest thing about this is that this raid was made possible by Rambo himself.

[Mehrunes]

My god, the level of dishonesty horde players can exhibit is mind-blowing.

Let's pretend now that the horde is the one that get fucked over in that conflict since vanilla.

And, pray tell, how was Alliance getting fucked over in the faction conflict since Vanilla, when nothing pertaining to faction conflict in Vanilla was conclusive in any way?

Let's totally ignore that the horde will have a RAID about their BfA capital when the alliance got a simple instance.

/facepalm

Yes, having your capital raided is truly the apotheosis of preferential treatment

Edit2: Ho yeah, and also, gotha love how they are trying to spin SoO as "the alliance coming to destroy the horde" and not "the alliance coming to stop a shacorupted guy and save the horde ass in the meantime".

Keep up the honesty my dudes, that's how you don't look like salty butthurt fanbois

You do realize it's the Alliance players that are spinning SoO as Alliance coming to destroy the Horde (but failing to achieve any lasting results in that department because of Blizzard's HORDE BIAS), right?

Well, they did establish during that cutscene that Jaina could just magically sweep away all of the blight. So presumably most Alliance players figured she'd just spend half an hour cleaning up Undercity for re-use. But I suppose she ran out of magic maid juice which they forgot to explain?

Except she didn't sweep it away. She froze it. Meaning it's still there once it thaws.

[Magnagarde]

And the fact you're pointing out they didnt retake lands lost to the Horde kinda prooves my point, so for someone trying to speak of intellectual dishonesty your preaching ignorance to a wise man.years.

Intellectual honesty and intellectual dishonesty are his iconic go-to thought wrap-ups. Sort of like Homer Simpson's "D'oh!".

[Galathir]

And if she dies in the raid Im willing to call it even

Yeah, no chance for that. Rastakhan had "Dead" tattooed on his forehead right from the start long before making a deal with the Loa of Death.

With Jaina it's different. She'll escape 100%

[rogueMatthias]

We finally have a decent capital city(Zandalari) that hasn't been ruined by war and now we are going to turn it into a shithole. Also probably they'll kill Rastakan. While Jaina will obviously get away.


Blizzard is horde biased btw.

That's factual at this point so I don't know why people even bother arguing it. Once again Alliance "get to raid a Horde Capital" because it drives the Horde story along. Alliance, as always, are just bit players to drive the Horde narative.

1) We all knew that the King was going to die, because there's been so much work building up the princess to take over as leader. In fact he even made a deal with Bwonsamdi to specifically include the rest of his blood line so we all know she's going to take over that story.

2) We all know Zandalari NEED a loss (finally SOME victory for the Alliance) because they need a reason to be an Allied race. Why the fuck would they pledge to serve the Warchief at full strength??

It's pretty embarassing when people act like MOP was an Alliance expansion because of SOO. Literally half the expansion was about Horde politics and the rise of Vol'Jin to Warchief and SOO was the story that gets him in power - Alliance was just theere to go "Yeah don't do it again". Alliance even had to do scenarios disguised as Horde to follow the storyline ffs.

[Deleted]

Guys wer are talking about jaina. Lets wait and see IF she shows up in the 1st place. Its more likely she start crying again and hide for another 2 or 3 expansions.

[Mehrunes]

- Iron horde was crafted by Garrosh's escape in Warcrimes, Garrosh was the former leader of the Horde, by his extention, it would still count.
- Why the Nightborne had a reason to turn on their own people is a baffling one to say the least, the situation at Thundertotem I can practically understand.
- Delaryn wasnt entirley new, your argment is flawed.
- Varian did loose to the Horde abbandoning him at the battle of the Broken Shore, yes, its true they had a very justified reason, but its pretty fair game to assume Sylvanas was quite *happy* to let the Alliance take its losses too.
- Undercity twice has been attacked neither once has been taken, Darkshore was lost to the Horde, and the Alliance is now attempting to retake it, again, yes, you deserve to get a hit.

-Arthas was a former leader of an Alliance nation once he succeeded his father. By your count the Horde lost Saurfang Jr. to the Alliance.
-Because Night Elves aren't their people? Kinda in the name. Tyrande had the diplomatic grace of an elephant in a nitroglycerin warehouse whereas Blood Elves share a similar culture and even history with them.
-Delaryn was added in the pre-expansion event. How is that not new? It's been what? 2 months ago? Ancient character right there /s
-There's zero fucking link between Horde retreating and Varian dying. Varian died to the Fel Reaver that wasn't even a factor when the Horde retreated. Horde's presence wouldn't have helped against it one iota either. If anything, it's the other way around. Alliance got onto the gunship only because the Horde left. If the Horde didn't leave, they'd still be on the ground when Gul'dan summoned the Fel Reaver. Which would annihilate them.
-The Alliance is fighting a guerilla war in Darkshore the entire time, as per mission table.

-And the fact you're pointing out they didnt retake lands lost to the Horde kinda prooves my point, so for someone trying to speak of intellectual dishonesty your preaching ignorance to a wise man.

Again, WTF are you on about? Alliance not retaking their lands proves neither your claim that Alliance is a sleeping lion nor the dishonest nonsense above. You know, the things from your post that I actually contested.

[Niaraa]

They are just mad they don't have an opportunity to blow up yet another city. Its pretty traumatic for them.



WOULD YOU PLEASE BE QUIET ABOUT THAT?!
HAVE YOU NOT THOUGHT OF THE FALLEN AT CAMP TAURAJO?!

YOU INSENSITIVE EVIL MAN!

you forget the purge of Dalaran dude! 4 or 5 deadblood elves. this is an unspeakable war crime and proof we are the incarnation of evil.

[Mehrunes]

Intellectual honesty and intellectual dishonesty are his iconic go-to thought wrap-ups. Sort of like Homer Simpson's "D'oh!".

Yeah, sure, counting Varian as Alliance loss to the Horde is totally not dishonest, you sure got me there /s Likewise, Horde keeping zones they won totally proves the post by @CaptainV that I actually contested. In every way Jesus fucking Christ this isn't even funny at this point. Just pitiful.

[Hell-Nicø]

How to spot salty butthurt fanbois in one step : Post about salty butthurt fanbois and watch who's going to take it personnal.

And, pray tell, how was Alliance getting fucked over in the faction conflict since Vanilla, when nothing pertaining to faction conflict in Vanilla was conclusive in any way?

Ho, you mean like how SW was led by a child under the control of a dragon. Also, gotha love that reading comprehension you got here buddy, how you took "since" and automatically focused on THAT point and ignoring everything that came after

Yes, having your capital raided is truly the apotheosis of preferential treatment

... well. DUH! Of course it is!
On one hand you got a "capital" that got brought low by a bunch of pirates and saved by 5 people, on the other hand you got giant empire heart build on titan structure that got attack (and defended) by 20+ players).
Yes. I'd say it's a pretty clear preferential treatment.

You want to talk about capitals being trashed? Do you want to talk about how SW was left with a giant hole in it for 2 extensions while the horde got a nice make over of its capital?
Ho wait, I guess that would go against your narrative!

You do realize it's the Alliance players that are spinning SoO as Alliance coming to destroy the Horde (but failing to achieve any lasting results in that department because of Blizzard's HORDE BIAS), right?

Nice strawman my dude, but that's not the case. Alliance players (and anyone with any honesty left) were pointing out that the alliance didn't finished the horde when they could, and probably should, just to give them a chance, to get ONCE AGAIN backstabed in the dick by the horde at the first possible occasion.

Except she didn't sweep it away. She froze it. Meaning it's still there once it thaws.

Nice made up fact my dude, and let's pretend that the alliance has NO WAY of cleanig that shit up what so ever, like massive magical power, a light infused space ship or a bunch of druids!

I wonder what will be your explanation for when blizz will come and revamp Undercity and Gilneas!

Infracted.

[Magnagarde]

Yeah, sure, counting Varian as Alliance loss to the Horde is totally not dishonest, you sure got me there /s Likewise, Horde keeping zones they won totally proves the post by @CaptainV that I actually contested. In every way Jesus fucking Christ this isn't even funny at this point. Just pitiful.

Of course, just how could I! Sylvanas would have absolutely no interest in seeing Varian die along the way because she's never planned to all along take Stormwind and churn out more undead, something which totally wouldn't require having the unpleasant duty of taking Varian out. Her interests totally didn't perfectly allign for a world after the Burning Legion is defeated.

/s

[Mehrunes]

That's factual at this point so I don't know why people even bother arguing it. Once again Alliance "get to raid a Horde Capital" because it drives the Horde story along. Alliance, as always, are just bit players to drive the Horde narative.

I dunno. Perhaps it's because you have to bend over backwards about how Alliance raiding a Horde capital exists only to drive the Horde story along, as if the Alliance wasn't actually there in order to prove the truthfulness of this paranoid conspiracy theory bullshit. Perhaps it's because they are agents of the Blizzard Illuminati Reptilians from the moon hired to discredit your holy truth. We'll never know for sure.

It's pretty embarassing when people act like MOP was an Alliance expansion because of SOO. Literally half the expansion was about Horde politics and the rise of Vol'Jin to Warchief and SOO was the story that gets him in power - Alliance was just theere to go "Yeah don't do it again". Alliance even had to do scenarios disguised as Horde to follow the storyline ffs.

Yeah, Alliance totally didn't get their own story in SoO. It was all about Vol'jin. And Horde players totally weren't disguised as Alliance in Dun Morogh scenario.

[Ehrenpanzer]

you forget the purge of Dalaran dude! 4 or 5 deadblood elves. this is an unspeakable war crime and proof we are the incarnation of evil.

Pretty sure you dont quantify war crimes based on "well we only arbitrarily executed SOME civilians....." The Alliance isnt nearly the goody goody faction you like to poor oppressed white knight yourselves as. The execution of PoWs on your initial landing spot in Zandalar is a good example.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course, just how could I! Sylvanas would have absolutely no interest in seeing Varian die along the way because she's never planned to all along take Stormwind and churn out more undead, something which totally wouldn't require having the unpleasant duty of taking Varian out. Her interests totally didn't perfectly allign for a world after the Burning Legion is defeated.

/s

Right... because, in the initial battle for the FATE OF THE UNIVERSE, Sylvannas is going to risk everything for the sole purpose of the loss of a single human warrior..... Have I mentioned I have a bridge in San Francisco for sale? Perhaps you'd be interested....

[FuxieDK]

I wonder how they can turn Rastakhan into a raidboss. He appeared to me like an old powerless fool that could be just easily overthrown by a handful traitors.

More important than how, is WHY...

What have Rastakhan done to Warren being a raid boss?
Loa are virtually gods, and people are free to worship who they want.. And Bwonsamdi is not nearly bad enough to call evil..

[rogueMatthias]

I dunno. Perhaps it's because you have to bend over backwards about how Alliance raiding a Horde capital exists only to drive the Horde story along, as if the Alliance wasn't actually there in order to prove the truthfulness of this paranoid conspiracy theory bullshit.

Ok... so what was the Alliance storyline for SOO? What developments and growth was there for the Alliance during that raid?

Yeah, Alliance totally didn't get their own story in SoO. It was all about Vol'jin. And Horde players totally weren't disguised as Alliance in Dun Morogh scenario.

Which was just fluff.

The Horde scenarios drove the storyline forward with the Attack on Voljin.

The Alliance storylines did what? Prove that Tyrande is an incompetent idiot and helped the Dark Iron "prove themselves" to the Alliance? Well I just had to go through a whole load of quests for the DI to prove themselves AGAIN because of how little that mattered.