[Spoiler] The Alliance does X in Zuldazar and Baine's immidiate reaction is:

[Chromu]

There are still some "horde knights" here believing the horde is morally grey...

Orcs: well they are in such a fuck up state that you just need to look to Saurfang to understand.
Goblins are lead by a slavetrader and have NIL moral values- Goblin own intro area show this and silithus attack was just the obivous to expect from goblins and their greed.
Forsaken are deathbound slaves - Sylvanas is raising people against their will, not to mention the "plague" was first showed at the Wrathgate with an excuse "we didn't knew it existed" blablabla at the time (even Drektar warned about her).
Zandalaris fucked up a lot of the alliance territory back in cataclysm (or you think Zul Gurub were raiding which areas?) - not to mention Rasthakan bound himself to an "evil" Loa, so he was lost. The decision to kill him was just a "flavour" to explain how an enemy race (zandalari) got into the playable race mob.
Blood Elves are fucked up since Burning Crusade - they were mana addict and now they are "wtf" addict (because i doubt their acts would be blessed by the holy light). In short, they are "drug addicts/dealers".
Nightborne... those are horde just like the @ss idea which created void elf for the Alliance.

The only grey ones are: Thrall orcs (which are 75% players), darkspear trolls and... duh... Taurens.

People here complaining about Baine attitude seems to know jacks about Tauren lore - he is the only one leader that reflects the value of his race in the horde since Warcraft III. Baine is a bad character because the shit way Blizzard handled WoW Lore, making several bizarre decisions and some nasty retcons endind up with this mess called WoW Horde.

[Mixxy]

Blizz haven't given anyother statement if the everything on novels are canon, but we know that ingame is always canon. We don't know if that is something of those "less canon" moments.

No. In-game is very much not always canon. For example: the entire Alliance experience in Uldir. That's not canon. We've been SPECIFICALLY told that in-game is actually one of the most consistently non-canon versions of the story.

Hard, unambiguous canon is what the Chronicles and novels are for.

The Alliance is entitled to snoop on the Horde as much as the Horde is entitlement to wanna wipe them out. They’re enemies, it’s what they do. You guys get too hung up on what’s ok and what’s not ok. Wars are born out of opportunism. End of the day they’re all assholes in a fight to the death.

(Except Baine)

True. But the broad point of it is that this entire war right now wouldn't have been born without Sylvanas.

[Terongor]

BtS and the short stories provided in the Collector's Edition are very much canon, but I understand what you mean.

It means they are mostly canon, but it may have something of "less canon" moments or actions.

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No. In-game is very much not always canon. For example: the entire Alliance experience in Uldir. That's not canon. We've been SPECIFICALLY told that in-game is actually one of the most consistently non-canon versions of the story.

Hard, unambiguous canon is what the Chronicles and novels are for.

True. But the broad point of it is that this entire war right now wouldn't have been born without Sylvanas.

Chronicles are canon but not everything in everynovel.

[Magnagarde]

It means they are mostly canon, but it may have something of "less canon" moments or actions.

There are no "less canon" moments unless Blizzard explicitly states so. They haven't had to retcon any of it.

The only time we've seen contradictions with what is going on in the game is in the case of the novellas and the War of the Thorns.

[Terongor]

There are still some "horde knights" here believing the horde is morally grey...

Orcs: well they are in such a fuck up state that you just need to look to Saurfang to understand.
Goblins are lead by a slavetrader and have NIL moral values- Goblin own intro area show this and silithus attack was just the obivous to expect from goblins and their greed.
Forsaken are deathbound slaves - Sylvanas is raising people against their will, not to mention the "plague" was first showed at the Wrathgate with an excuse "we didn't knew it existed" blablabla at the time (even Drektar warned about her).
Zandalaris fucked up a lot of the alliance territory back in cataclysm (or you think Zul Gurub were raiding which areas?) - not to mention Rasthakan bound himself to an "evil" Loa, so he was lost. The decision to kill him was just a "flavour" to explain how an enemy race (zandalari) got into the playable race mob.
Blood Elves are fucked up since Burning Crusade - they were mana addict and now they are "wtf" addict (because i doubt their acts would be blessed by the holy light). In short, they are "drug addicts/dealers".
Nightborne... those are horde just like the @ss idea which created void elf for the Alliance.

The only grey ones are: Thrall orcs (which are 75% players), darkspear trolls and... duh... Taurens.

People here complaining about Baine attitude seems to know jacks about Tauren lore - he is the only one leader that reflects the value of his race in the horde since Warcraft III. Baine is a bad character because the shit way Blizzard handled WoW Lore, making several bizarre decisions and some nasty retcons endind up with this mess called WoW Horde.

One in cataclyms it was the followers of Zul you know the raid boss in uldir who serves G'huun and two Bwonsamdi isn't evil he has never done anything inherantly evil and seeks ballance, but also benefit.

[Mixxy]

Have you read chronicles 1 Odyn is way worse than Helya so you think its okay for Odyn to force people like helya to be val'kyr and stealing their free will, but its wrong when sylvanases resses people and they still have their free will?

You actually believe that? That's adorable.

Sylvanas massacres the entire Night Elven population for power. Rezzes one of the Nelves that gave literally everything to stop her... and the Nelf IMMEDIATELY goes "Elune didn't stop Sylvanas from murdering my people... so now I'm loyal to Sylvanas!"

The Forsaken's free will is an illusion. Even in Before the Storm we got a hint at that with "I cannot betray my queen, even for you."

It's literally spelled out: they can not betray Sylvanas.



Also, all the Alliance soldiers that Sylvanas rezzed at the Battle for Lordaeron? They sure didn't have free will. They were mindless slaves.
Oh! And the quests in Silverpine where you kill Alliance soldiers, rez them with a Val'kyr, and the first thing they say is "FOR THE DARK LADY!"

[Broken Fox]

The Forsaken have free will. This is canon whether you like it or not. It’s displayed in the fucking starting zone.

And the skeletons at Lordaeron we’re not Forsaken.

[Terongor]

There are no "less canon" moments unless Blizzard explicitly states so. They haven't had to retcon any of it.

The only time we've seen contradictions with what is going on in the game is in the case of the novellas and the War of the Thorns.

Even metzen said then that typically characters in novels are canon which leaves actions and timelines very open that you shouldn't take everything stated in novel facevalue and see how it fits ingamen, but as Super Dickmann said that alliance spies killing horde workers happened before horde attacked EL

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You actually believe that? That's adorable.

Sylvanas massacres the entire Night Elven population for power. Rezzes one of the Nelves that gave literally everything to stop her... and the Nelf IMMEDIATELY goes "Elune didn't stop Sylvanas from murdering my people... so now I'm loyal to Sylvanas!"

The Forsaken's free will is an illusion. Even in Before the Storm we got a hint at that with "I cannot betray my queen, even for you."

It's literally spelled out: they can not betray Sylvanas.



Also, all the Alliance soldiers that Sylvanas rezzed at the Battle for Lordaeron? They sure didn't have free will. They were mindless slaves.
Oh! And the quests in Silverpine where you kill Alliance soldiers, rez them with a Val'kyr, and the first thing they say is "FOR THE DARK LADY!"

Blizz stated it and its still canon until blizz states otherwise.

[Mixxy]

The Forsaken have free will. This is canon whether you like it or not. It’s displayed in the fucking starting zone.

And the skeletons at Lordaeron we’re not Forsaken.

Blizz stated it and its still canon until blizz states otherwise.

I'm just saying, don't be surprised to find out that that isn't the case anymore, and actually hasn't been for a while. The story's clearly going that way.

The Forsaken don't need to be mindless to be enslaved.

[Terongor]

No. In-game is very much not always canon. For example: the entire Alliance experience in Uldir. That's not canon. We've been SPECIFICALLY told that in-game is actually one of the most consistently non-canon versions of the story.

Hard, unambiguous canon is what the Chronicles and novels are for.

True. But the broad point of it is that this entire war right now wouldn't have been born without Sylvanas.

Also Sylvanas couldn't have legiticimated this war to other horde leaders like saurfang it Genn didn't attack her on Stormheim so sylvanas couldn't started this war without genn so its Genns fault.

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No. In-game is very much not always canon. For example: the entire Alliance experience in Uldir. That's not canon. We've been SPECIFICALLY told that in-game is actually one of the most consistently non-canon versions of the story.

Hard, unambiguous canon is what the Chronicles and novels are for.

True. But the broad point of it is that this entire war right now wouldn't have been born without Sylvanas.

Also Sylvanas couldn't have legitimated this war to other horde leaders like saurfang it Genn didn't attack her on Stormheim so sylvanas couldn't started this war without genn so its Genns fault.

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I'm just saying, don't be surprised to find out that that isn't the case anymore, and actually hasn't been for a while. The story's clearly going that way.

The Forsaken don't need to be mindless to be enslaved.

It woudn't suprise me, if blizz stated that.

But still until it is stated it is still your headcanon

[Wolfie of Medivh]

Man, horde players ARE bloodthirsty aren't they?

And they still whine about Turajo, after Theramore?

[Broken Fox]

Man, horde players ARE bloodthirsty aren't they?

And they still whine about Turajo, after Theramore?

That’s just a running joke dude no one really gives a shit about Taurajo

[Kallisto]

By that logic isn't throwing Stormheim around as a justification for Sylvanas' war in BFA basically just saying "it's Greymane's fault Sylvanas can't control herself!"?

No because there has been no peace treaty signed after Genn declared war with the attack and Anduin by the fact he never arrested Genn or sent Genn to the Horde through extradition showed his support for such actions. Yes he can say "Bad Genn now don't do it again." but in international diplomacy by not openly condemning the attack and actually do proper punishment of such incident to all intents and purposes Anduin favours it.

The Gilnean war ended with the peace treaty after MoP which lasted through WoD (Ashran can not have happened in lore due to the fact players are being told to kill people in Ashran who they are helping within other areas of Draenor.). Which in all state means that everything that happened during said war and side conflicts are to be moved on from. Doesn't matter if one person killed another you cared about. The war is over. Plus all sides know the war was not instigated by Sylvanas but Garrosh.

[Mixxy]

Also Sylvanas couldn't have legiticimated this war to other horde leaders like saurfang it Genn didn't attack her on Stormheim so sylvanas couldn't started this war without genn so its Genns fault.

Uh huh. And if there wasn't a Sylvanas, Genn wouldn't have attacked in Stormheim at all.
So what I said is still true: this war wouldn't exist without Sylvanas.

[Verdugo]

Uh huh. And if there wasn't a Sylvanas, Genn wouldn't have attacked in Stormheim at all.
So what I said is still true: this war wouldn't exist without Sylvanas.

So alliance hypocrites now consider victim blaming to be valid form of argument? Good to remember.

[Terongor]

Uh huh. And if there wasn't a Sylvanas, Genn wouldn't have attacked in Stormheim at all.
So what I said is still true: this war wouldn't exist without Sylvanas.

If sylvanas went anywere that wasn't horde territory genn would have tried to kill her even when genn had no casus belli towards horde nor sylvanas even though she killed his son but he lost the casus belli when he agreed to the peace varian made at the end of Mop.

So still Genns fault for seeking revenge he had lost his right to.

[Mixxy]

No because there has been no peace treaty signed after Genn declared war with the attack and Anduin by the fact he never arrested Genn or sent Genn to the Horde through extradition showed his support for such actions. Yes he can say "Bad Genn now don't do it again." but in international diplomacy by not openly condemning the attack and actually do proper punishment of such incident to all intents and purposes Anduin favours it.

The Gilnean war ended with the peace treaty after MoP which lasted through WoD (Ashran can not have happened in lore due to the fact players are being told to kill people in Ashran who they are helping within other areas of Draenor.). Which in all state means that everything that happened during said war and side conflicts are to be moved on from. Doesn't matter if one person killed another you cared about. The war is over. Plus all sides know the war was not instigated by Sylvanas but Garrosh.

There you go ignoring Ashran. Like clockwork.

No, Ashran is absolutely canon. Just a version of it without any actual named figures. The Alliance was excavating, the Horde suddenly decided that the Alliance was after some sort of super weapon and was planning to betray them with it... so they betrayed the Alliance first. That's canon.
And no treaty was signed afterwards.
You can't just say "No Ashran doesn't count because it's weird in-game." Wintergrasp and Tol Barad are weird in-game, and they're still canon.


And as for that last bit... no. Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure the Chronicles have retconned it so that Sylvanas was pretty much entirely responsible for the Gilneas campaign, and that Garrosh had very little to do with it.

[Kallisto]

1) It was neutral ground.
4) The Alliance didn't send "200 elite soldiers". They sent a handful of SI:7 members.
5) SI:7 are spies first, assassins second.

1) Once a mine is set up and people (well goblins) are mining. The areas around the mine are claimed by those who are mining and owned by them. So they are horde lands as the workers, machines etc are horde.

4+5) Espionage is an act of war. By tresspassing around goblin mines (which is now claimed land beloning to the Goblins by right of claim) they are commitings acts of war.

Lastly, it is also shown that the alliance have not been mining and yet have a piece of Azerite. There's only two ways that the Azerite could have got to Anduin. Either A) It was stolen (theft at a national scale is an act of war.) or B) a Goblin (civilian since mining is a civilian job) was killed and the Azerite was once again stolen. So we have state sponsored killing + Theft, also an act of war.

[Broken Fox]

People are more accepting of Sylvanas cause she’s unashamedly an asshole. There’s no beating around the bush with her and that’s nice.

Meanwhile Genn never misses a chance to whine about his past like a bitch. Yeah dude, we get it. You lost stuff. Everyone has. That doesn’t give him a pass. Now if Genn just admitted to be a bloodthirsty shithead with no self control he’d be a lot cooler.

[Kallisto]

And as for that last bit... no. Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure the Chronicles have retconned it so that Sylvanas was pretty much entirely responsible for the Gilneas campaign, and that Garrosh had very little to do with it.

No it doesn't. It still states she had plans but was still in Northrend when Garrosh started it. All she did was take it over. Also nothing in game states Ashran is lore and everyone ignores it. Unless someone in game and outside of game states it as so it isn't.