[Spoiler] The Alliance does X in Zuldazar and Baine's immidiate reaction is:

[Frozen Death Knight]

If Genn had helped the people of lordaeron and quel'thalas against Scourge maybe Forsakens wouldn't exists, so its genn fault.

Quel'thalas barely lifted a finger as well during the whole Scourge invasion and decided to turtle up inside their defenses while all of Lordaeron got sacked by the Scourge. Gilneas may not have done anything to assist their former allies against the Scourge, but to say that it is Genn's fault for the current state of Lordaeron and the Forsaken is frankly stretching it.

[Stelio Kontos]

And honestly, why bother accepting negotiations with the Horde? Just so some other lunatic/aberration can get into power and in two years be murdering more innocents in another attempt at racial genocide?

A vicious dog can only be indulged so much before the only logical option is to put it down. It's time for the Horde to go. I know that won't happen, though, Blizzard is far too Horde-centric and the game would never allow for it. So the next best thing is to just completely dismantle the whole bi-factional system, or at least de-emphasize it to the point where it's no longer a pertinent issue.

[Malikath]

COULD Is the keyword here. Until lore is changed, canon is that every forsaken is free willed undead

actually no it isn't, for a while now you either serve sylvanus or you get killed and sent to the shadowlands.

[Zulkhan]

And honestly, why bother accepting negotiations with the Horde?

Ask that to Baine.

[Stelio Kontos]

Ask that to Baine.

I mean, I'd be open to the Alliance negotiating with the races individually, namely the Tauren, Blood Elves, Trolls, Goblins etc., but the Forsaken signed their own death warrants long ago, and the Orcs I'm 50/50 on, maybe find a way to send their asses back to Outland and destroy the Dark Portal.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

The horde hate for baine in here is strong, words thrown around like "Traitor" and "Human lover" because hes being "sane" part of the horde. He did the same thing when they turned against Garrosh, and hopefully Sylvanas will meet the same fate as that fat headed orc did. That Banshee started this war, and those in the horde who are smart enough are going to leave her to die along side any that dare follow her. Baine is proving that, as is Saurfang.

I liken this to when Velen suggested we abandon Azeroth if the Legion invasions went worse, and I do not recall Alliance players getting this mad at one of their own.

Proof: The Horde just has less quality people. The Trump Followers of Azeroth wear red and black.

[SirBeef]

To those saying Carine would act differently we do not know that for sure. Yes Carine was a fierce fighter and fought when he thought it was just. But none of what Sylv has done would be seen as just by Carine. He could have been just like his son.

[Terongor]

Quel'thalas barely lifted a finger as well during the whole Scourge invasion and decided to turtle up inside their defenses while all of Lordaeron got sacked by the Scourge. Gilneas may not have done anything to assist their former allies against the Scourge, but to say that it is Genn's fault for the current state of Lordaeron and the Forsaken is frankly stretching it.

You took it out of contexts... and aren't in on the point he or I was making... he blamed sylvanas for starting the current war by not dying before legion.

[Zulkhan]

I mean, I'd be open to the Alliance negotiating with the races individually, namely the Tauren, Blood Elves, Trolls, Goblins etc., but the Forsaken signed their own death warrants long ago, and the Orcs I'm 50/50 on, maybe find a way to send their asses back to Outland and destroy the Dark Portal.

Here's an alternative: the Horde, regardless of how Sylvanas ended up in charge of the faction, takes responsibility over all the shit it has done and fights for its own independency until the bitter end, regardless of the outcome. Baine can leave the faction and join his master Anduin as the royal pet in his throne room.

[Stelio Kontos]

Here's an alternative: the Horde, regardless of how Sylvanas ended up in charge of the faction, takes responsibility over all the shit it has done and fights for its own independency until the bitter end, regardless of the outcome. Baine can leave the faction and join his master Anduin as the royal pet in his throne room.

Then the sword it should be, in that hypothetical. Because Sylvanas and Garrosh have proven this adage, the day the Horde puts down their weapons, the war can end. The day the Alliance races put down their weapons, their existence ends.

[Zulkhan]

To those saying Carine would act differently we do not know that for sure. Yes Carine was a fierce fighter and fought when he thought it was just. But none of what Sylv has done would be seen as just by Carine. He could have been just like his son.

Cairne would have done more than talking. Baine does nothing but talk and be upset over things. Plus, while Cairne wasn't a warmonger nor appreciated needless bloodshed, wasn't an Alliance sympathizer and truly prioritized his people over an established enemy; Baine however often looks concerned over his "friends" in the Alliance while apathetically claiming things like "Taurajo was a legitimate military target".

[Femininity]

Because Blizzard writing is childish trash now

Unironically this.

[Malikath]

I liken this to when Velen suggested we abandon Azeroth if the Legion invasions went worse, and I do not recall Alliance players getting this mad at one of their own.

Proof: The Horde just has less quality people. The Trump Followers of Azeroth wear red and black.

that was in cataclysm, and considering what would of happened in the hour of twilight he would of been smart to start preparing evacuation then and there.

[Terongor]

So do you out source your bullcrap or make it All by your self? The forsakes followed sylvanas orders and are killed any way to the point where narthanos was even suprised to say any thing else is your own made up bullcrap.

We also don’t have a timeline but civs don’t attack armed forces like the goblins do litteraly nothing in the book or in game points tonthem beig civs that’s just an assumption.

You also apperntly have no idea how neutrality works or you think no one has every been neutral in any thing.

And no the war didn’t start in stormheim even sylvanas doesn’t think that was the start.

Nothing backs up any of your points not even the faction your trying to defend agrees with you.

Few tried to run to stromgarde and rest were having fun with their families so by least are traitors by not telling or signanling sylvanas that they are running for stromgarde. Someone of the must have noticed.

You are mixing civilians and Non-combatant "Non-combatant is a term of art in the law of war and international humanitarian law, describing civilians who are not taking a direct part in hostilities" Article 51.3 of Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions and merrim webster defined civilians as "a person who is not a member of the military or of a police or firefighting force" Merriam–Webster, Incorporated is an American company that publishes reference books which is especially known for its dictionaries., which was started in 1831 so its by all means commonly accepted definition for an civilian.

Neutrality is defined in merriam webster as "the quality or state of not favoring one side or the other" and you can't say Magni would favor Moira and ironforge against horde.

Not it didn't start, but it gave all the horde agreed that Stormheim proved that peace wasn't guareented with the alliance when it seemed Anduin approved of assasination attempt on Sylvanases life and sylvanas justified to war with what happened in stormheim, if it hadn't happened no war.

[Zulkhan]

Then the sword it should be, in that hypothetical. Because Sylvanas and Garrosh have proven this adage, the day the Horde puts down their weapons, the war can end. The day the Alliance races put down their weapons, their existence ends.

After all that has transpired in BfA, putting the weapons down would be the end of the Horde as we know it too. Let it be a final showdown, it was long overdue anyway.

[SirBeef]

Cairne would have done more than talking. Baine does nothing but talk and be upset over things. Plus, while Cairne wasn't a warmonger nor appreciated needless bloodshed, wasn't an Alliance sympathizer and truly prioritized his people over an established enemy; Baine however often looks concerned over his "friends" in the Alliance while apathetically claiming things like "Taurajo was a legitimate military target".

I know that, I mean it still may have been all talk though. Remember, much of this is hamstrung by the in-game faction mechanism. I have no doubt, Baine may have been a bad ass out for revenge and would have personally slaughtered all the Grimtotem if there were no faction alliances.

[Archmage Xaxxas]

My question then, is what can they write into the story in order to ensure Baine becomes the brutal, strong Tauren we need him to be?
(as if Cairnes death wasn't enough, but that would be a hatred towards Magatha alone.)

I'd say some sort of an assassination attempt from an Alliance character, but who? Nobody has bad Blood towards him on the Alliance save maybe Tyrande. But that's only because of the -ancient- and long-passed feud for land between the Kal'dorei and Tauren pre-Sundering.

Baine currently has one thing to lose- and it's his home/people. But again, nobody on the Alliance wants Thunderbluff destroyed.

I love Baine, I think he's an interesting character and a responsible leader for The Tauren- but maybe it's just his time to be killed off? Seems people want a Tauren leader who isn't afraid of some bloodshed, which is funny considering we're talking about a "Bloodhoof" here. At this point, I'd be interested in seeing some Grimtotem characters welcomed into the fight against the Alliance. Magatha is kind of a meme, but does she have a son who can challenge Baine? Does Tauren culture even work like that?

We're just stuck at this point, as I think everything seemed to agree.

HERE'S THE KICKER- Baine at this point, by not completely pulling his Tauren from the fight, has failed and is failing his people.
Juuust as the famous End Time dungeon predicted. I've been saying it for 2 years that the characters in that dungeon aren't random, it's long-term planning for story development. (as I'm sure others have and speak up if you've been #teamEndTime)

WoWHead is just confirming this for you with their Tyrande datamining, and I gushed over that.

Emerald Nightmare shows Thunderbluff in ruins. I have a feeling the Dark Iron might get really nasty towards the Tauren and group up with Magatha, who wants that precious Doomstone- and they're gonna blow Thunder Bluff the heck up.

Baine's gonna snap and basically we get the character you all want.

[Wolfie of Medivh]

that was in cataclysm, and considering what would of happened in the hour of twilight he would of been smart to start preparing evacuation then and there.

that was in the question about if the Draenei should leave Azeroth post-Wrath.

There was a second time, in a meeting in Stormwind Keep when he broached the topic... I'm fairly sure it's during Legion.

[Doffen]

Poor Baine. He must be so hurt after all these mean things said about him.

[Powerogue]

Saying he is true to his characterization and the way the Horde's tauren are is a blasphemy in this thread.

Just because you don't like him doesn't mean this isn't what he's always been like.