Holy pala HPS

[Deleted]

So I played holy paladin all of last expansion as my main in the raiding scene and didnt do too badly 90% in heroic and 70%+ in Mythic. Then came this expansion where I rerolled to resto druid (Cause I fancied a change) Now I decided to make my pala my alt and its just so bad.
I feel like I just cant get enough crit with current gear, LoD feels even weaker then last expansion and unlike last expansion I dont have infinite mana.
So outside our now insanely op cd Avenging Crusader how are you supposed to make hps? Aura of sacrifice seems really nerfed, with such low crit atm I rarely ever getting crits on Holy shock meaning no decent heals from FoL. The basis for the whole spec seems really broken atm. Sure the talents from the weapon werent amazing but they gave the spec a direction and atm I feel like nothing feels the same at all. There seems to be some nice traits which I assumed would assist with the clunky healing "rotation" we now have but its still just feels not enough outside wings.
Some suggestions and pointers would rock, I have done some research of my own but it feels like no one is really discussing holy outside "Its different to Legion".
Now im not really having any issues in 5 mans it still feels like business as usual in 5 mans (BoV Holy shock FoL etc etc) its only in raids im having issues. I feel like my hps is pointless compared to the Holy Priest and Mistweaver Monk we have (And its only heroic).

[Tehterokkar]

You can't compare yourself to MW/HPriest, they are currently HPS machines. Holy Paladin still brings invaluable tank healing and as you said, powerful CD healing.

And the usual question; Are people dying in raids to HPS?

[Deleted]

So thats it then? Just accept your hps is going to be pretty much worthless outside your cd? That seems a tad tragic, I could hold my own easy with any healing class last expansion and had powerful cds to boot. If this is what paladins have come to this is a really sad day for them.
I was really hoping I had missed something or I wasnt playing it right cause its a bit degrading being last on every encounter regardless of whether everyone lived or not.

[GreenJesus]

You don't use aura of sacrifice. For progression you are supposed to take devotion aura and do even less HPS because the damage prevented is more than aura of mercy heals.

[Deleted]

You don't use aura of sacrifice. For progression you are supposed to take devotion aura and do even less HPS because the damage prevented is more than aura of mercy heals.

Damn the life of a Holy Paladin that just wants to have some fun in heroic raids must be a really fun one this expansion -_-

[Wries]

Divine Purpose is the key for solving mana as well as HPS issues. Overall HPS can be increased further by using Awakening (combined with DP and if suitable also Crusader’s might) and provides synergy with Aura of Mercy, but you lose control of having two pretty powerful raid CDs into two slightly weaker ones, so it depends on the fight.

[Deleted]

Divine Purpose is the key for solving mana as well as HPS issues. Overall HPS can be increased further by using Awakening (combined with DP and if suitable also Crusader’s might) and provides synergy with Aura of Mercy, but you lose control of having two pretty powerful raid CDs into two slightly weaker ones, so it depends on the fight.

Oh right, I'll try this. It was my understanding that now that beacon of the lightbringer was taken off us we had 2 choices 2 beacons or BoV. Also I have heard nothing but bad publicity from Awakening since you cant know when its going to proc so it could proc 12 times on trash then 0 on the boss.
In saying that I will give divine purpose a shot.

[Thestuff1992]

Oh right, I'll try this. It was my understanding that now that beacon of the lightbringer was taken off us we had 2 choices 2 beacons or BoV. Also I have heard nothing but bad publicity from Awakening since you cant know when its going to proc so it could proc 12 times on trash then 0 on the boss.
In saying that I will give divine purpose a shot.

Please don’t listen to that. Completely wrong and misinformed. Might’ve been trolling but DP and Awakening shouldn’t be used. DP can be used in niche cases like mother where there’s only 1 tank taking damage.

Hpal hps is actually in a decent spot. Can’t really look at Hpriest or MW and compare, just like they couldn’t look at us in legion and compare. Compare yourself to other Holy Paladins to see if your actually doing well in terms of the class.

The “standard” talent setup for raids is: CM or Bestow faith, rule of law, devotion aura (mercy is for padding and not much else), JoL, Avenging Crusader and BoF. Things can change on a fight to fight basis though so just be aware of that. Mana isn’t an issue for Hpal at all, we’re the best healer at conserving mana so you’re doing something wrong here, most likely spamming FoL.

By the sound of things you could probably do a lot better especially considering you took the above post seriously, that lacks knowledge of the spec as that post was wrong in basically every way possible. Awakening is garbage compared to either talent on that row and DP is very niche.

You can link your logs if you want and I’ll help out but we’re pretty competitive. Obviously some healers are doing quite a bit more but overall we’re definitely competitive. Our hps isn’t anywhere near worthless outside of CDs either. Before blaming the game you should definitely check out logs and guides to compare yourself.

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Divine Purpose is the key for solving mana as well as HPS issues. Overall HPS can be increased further by using Awakening (combined with DP and if suitable also Crusader’s might) and provides synergy with Aura of Mercy, but you lose control of having two pretty powerful raid CDs into two slightly weaker ones, so it depends on the fight.

This is really bad advice. Not sure if youre trolling or just really misinformed but it’s not good. Awakening doesn’t hold a candle to SW or AC, it certainly doesn’t “increase hps further” and on top of that it’s RNG. Pretty sure you’re trolling but still

Divine purpose isn’t the key to solving mana issues either. We’re very efficient with mana, if you’re running oom it’s highly likely you’re doing something wrong. Giving up BoF for DP due to mana is not the way to go. DP has its uses but this isn’t it. Sure it can help with mana slightly but you’d give up double beacon and you shouldn’t be having an issue with mana anyway. Can probably go DP if you run double Hpal though but shouldn’t be taking it due to mana issues.

[Deleted]

Please don’t listen to that. Completely wrong and misinformed. Might’ve been trolling but DP and Awakening shouldn’t be used. DP can be used in niche cases like mother where there’s only 1 tank taking damage.

Hpal hps is actually in a decent spot. Can’t really look at Hpriest or MW and compare, just like they couldn’t look at us in legion and compare. Compare yourself to other Holy Paladins to see if your actually doing well in terms of the class.

The “standard” talent setup for raids is: CM or Bestow faith, rule of law, devotion aura (mercy is for padding and not much else), JoL, Avenging Crusader and BoF. Things can change on a fight to fight basis though so just be aware of that. Mana isn’t an issue for Hpal at all, we’re the best healer at conserving mana so you’re doing something wrong here, most likely spamming FoL.

By the sound of things you could probably do a lot better especially considering you took the above post seriously, that lacks knowledge of the spec as that post was wrong in basically every way possible. Awakening is garbage compared to either talent on that row and DP is very niche.

You can link your logs if you want and I’ll help out but we’re pretty competitive. Obviously some healers are doing quite a bit more but overall we’re definitely competitive. Our hps isn’t anywhere near worthless outside of CDs either. Before blaming the game you should definitely check out logs and guides to compare yourself.

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This is really bad advice. Not sure if youre trolling or just really misinformed but it’s not good. Awakening doesn’t hold a candle to SW or AC, it certainly doesn’t “increase hps further” and on top of that it’s RNG. Pretty sure you’re trolling but still

Divine purpose isn’t the key to solving mana issues either. We’re very efficient with mana, if you’re running oom it’s highly likely you’re doing something wrong. Giving up BoF for DP due to mana is not the way to go. DP has its uses but this isn’t it. Sure it can help with mana slightly but you’d give up double beacon and you shouldn’t be having an issue with mana anyway. Can probably go DP if you run double Hpal though but shouldn’t be taking it due to mana issues.

Well as I noted above I am not world first standards thats for sure, I havnt really tried to be either. But I like to think I did fairly well last expansion for a guild that finished all content even if it did take till the very end of the expansion to do it.
The point wasnt to boast thats for sure, it was merely an indication that I had played it in the past :P
Also things change from patch to patch and the fact that I questioned it should at least make you realise im not a moron just havnt played this expansion.

So further to the above im wondering what % crit you have? Cause my crit is way to low to get consistent procs from HS meaning my FoL isnt as effective as it could be. Also I find since holy shock doesnt feel quite as effective as last expansion it doesnt feel like I can do much with it outside patching someone up that has lost a little bit of hp. Last expansion if I hs'd someone they knew they had been healed.
Next I feel like LoD has somehow gotten worse then last expansion, given that towards the end with the set bonuses it could be really good I wonder if its I just got used to actually having an aoe that was worth having.
Finally I find Avenging crusader to be crazy overpowered for the small duration we get it massively so but given that aura mastery feels a little crappy now that aura of sacrifice is useless and Mercy has always been that aura that is only any use in half a dozen fights I find it doesnt feel like its much help outside Mythic raids and near raid wipes (Cause the reduced damage to the whole raid for such a small amount of time feels underwhelming) and due to it not even having the extra healing taken when its on anymore its a big pile of wank outside Mythic raiding. Certainly isnt going to compare to other healer cds thats for sure.

One of the main reasons I never ran out of mana back in legion was cause I could get a very high crit and my heals ended up being massively big meaning I really never needed to heal more then once but given I am on 24% crit and dont seem to be able to get any higher (Crit on every piece apart from 1 trinket) I really am interested to know how you are not having mana problems with such low crit over the board and DP in a basically inaccessible place. I thank you in advance.

[Rhade1337]

Hi guys, this is offtopic but i need to ask this question about healers in general, why did blizz remove interrupt from all the healers except resto shamans?
Also another question for holy palas: did you guys enjoy when you had holy power??

[Wries]

This is really bad advice. Not sure if youre trolling or just really misinformed but it’s not good. Awakening doesn’t hold a candle to SW or AC, it certainly doesn’t “increase hps further” and on top of that it’s RNG. Pretty sure you’re trolling but still

Divine purpose isn’t the key to solving mana issues either. We’re very efficient with mana, if you’re running oom it’s highly likely you’re doing something wrong. Giving up BoF for DP due to mana is not the way to go. DP has its uses but this isn’t it. Sure it can help with mana slightly but you’d give up double beacon and you shouldn’t be having an issue with mana anyway. Can probably go DP if you run double Hpal though but shouldn’t be taking it due to mana issues.

I'm not trolling. Maybe you are, though? I mean the thread was about HPS and a paladin alt that is going to run HC primarily and you're talking like OP is asking how to take Ghuun Mythic on this weekend.

I logged top 1 holy pala HPS in the world on any ilvl (mine was 358) on Zul HC and consistently logged in the 95+ percentile with that spec. But it's pretty much a "HPS"-spec which sacrifices control which I acknowledged in my post even. DP is insanely nice to your mana, though.

[Deleted]

Healers are specialized this expansion, like they always should of been. Holy priests and misweavers bring next to no utility, but provide big numbers, palas and shamen are strong in their specific niche and have more utility than they need, but cannot provide raw numbers. Druids and disc are the outliers, where resto is just kinda weak atm and disc has way too high numbers, considering it has decent DR cooldowns. So expect more buffs/nerf to them.

If all healers did the same healing, as it was in legion, we would be in the same situation, where holy priests and misweavers are inferior specs, and are only taken when you have no other choice. Except this time druids would also join them, since they lost most of their utility from the artifact.

[Thestuff1992]

I'm not trolling. Maybe you are, though? I mean the thread was about HPS and a paladin alt that is going to run HC primarily and you're talking like OP is asking how to take Ghuun Mythic on this weekend.

I logged top 1 holy pala HPS in the world on any ilvl (mine was 358) on Zul HC and consistently logged in the 95+ percentile with that spec. But it's pretty much a "HPS"-spec which sacrifices control which I acknowledged in my post even. DP is insanely nice to your mana, though.

None of the top parses (including any of my 95+ in mythic or even heroic)) include awakening or DP. If it was so good for HPS you’d see it a lot on logs from mythic farm. I don’t really look at heroic logs, parsing there is fairly easy and near meaningless but you can take a look for yourself.

Even people who pad with mercy don’t use either of those 2 talents. You don’t get more healing from awakening compared to AC/SW, that’s flat out false and the Hpal spreadsheet can show you that as well as any of the top logs. You won’t get more healing from DP either unless you have 2 hpals or it’s a fight like mother.

If it were as good as you say it is it’d be used a whole lot more especially now that a lot of top logs have most bosses on farm. Awakening/DP/CM was the meme build during pre patch because it was pretty fun and could pump out decent numbers (especially with certain legendary setups) but it’s not really in the running now at all.

If you wanna take those talents it’s fine but recommending it to newer or struggling players isn’t really good as it’s bad for anything progression related and most definitely won’t help you parse better than the standard set up.

Yeah, DP is very nice for mana conservation but mana isn’t really an issue for our spec. Giving up double beacon because you have mana issues is pretty bad unless you have a 2nd Hpal in the group.

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Well as I noted above I am not world first standards thats for sure, I havnt really tried to be either. But I like to think I did fairly well last expansion for a guild that finished all content even if it did take till the very end of the expansion to do it.
The point wasnt to boast thats for sure, it was merely an indication that I had played it in the past :P
Also things change from patch to patch and the fact that I questioned it should at least make you realise im not a moron just havnt played this expansion.

So further to the above im wondering what % crit you have? Cause my crit is way to low to get consistent procs from HS meaning my FoL isnt as effective as it could be. Also I find since holy shock doesnt feel quite as effective as last expansion it doesnt feel like I can do much with it outside patching someone up that has lost a little bit of hp. Last expansion if I hs'd someone they knew they had been healed.
Next I feel like LoD has somehow gotten worse then last expansion, given that towards the end with the set bonuses it could be really good I wonder if its I just got used to actually having an aoe that was worth having.
Finally I find Avenging crusader to be crazy overpowered for the small duration we get it massively so but given that aura mastery feels a little crappy now that aura of sacrifice is useless and Mercy has always been that aura that is only any use in half a dozen fights I find it doesnt feel like its much help outside Mythic raids and near raid wipes (Cause the reduced damage to the whole raid for such a small amount of time feels underwhelming) and due to it not even having the extra healing taken when its on anymore its a big pile of wank outside Mythic raiding. Certainly isnt going to compare to other healer cds thats for sure.

One of the main reasons I never ran out of mana back in legion was cause I could get a very high crit and my heals ended up being massively big meaning I really never needed to heal more then once but given I am on 24% crit and dont seem to be able to get any higher (Crit on every piece apart from 1 trinket) I really am interested to know how you are not having mana problems with such low crit over the board and DP in a basically inaccessible place. I thank you in advance.

You keep mentioning mercy and Aos but never mention devo. Devo aura is an extremely strong raid CD and one of the main reasons you’d want an Hpal. It’s not the only reason but it’s certainly nice to have for mythic progression.

My crit is at 23% (29% in uldir). Beginning of uldir progression I had ~19-20% crit though and still no mana issues. You’ll definitely run oom but it shouldn’t really be 2 or so minutes before the fight ends.

LoD is good for what it is. It’s a group heal (not a raid wide heal) and it’s decent. It’s definitely weaker than in legion since we lost second sunrise and Dusk before dawn or whatever it was.

AC isn’t overpowered but it’s really good. SW is fairly close (about ~5% behind) but they’re both strong options. Hpals do rely on good CD management however your healing outside of that shouldn’t really be garbage and certainly not worthless.

I know what you mean by our heals feel weak outside of CDs. It does feel that way for sure but in practice they actually aren’t all that weak.

[Deleted]

None of the top parses (including any of my 95+ in mythic or even heroic)) include awakening or DP. If it was so good for HPS you’d see it a lot on logs from mythic farm. I don’t really look at heroic logs, parsing there is fairly easy and near meaningless but you can take a look for yourself.

Even people who pad with mercy don’t use either of those 2 talents. You don’t get more healing from awakening compared to AC/SW, that’s flat out false and the Hpal spreadsheet can show you that as well as any of the top logs. You won’t get more healing from DP either unless you have 2 hpals or it’s a fight like mother.

If it were as good as you say it is it’d be used a whole lot more especially now that a lot of top logs have most bosses on farm. Awakening/DP/CM was the meme build during pre patch because it was pretty fun and could pump out decent numbers (especially with certain legendary setups) but it’s not really in the running now at all.

If you wanna take those talents it’s fine but recommending it to newer or struggling players isn’t really good as it’s not optimal.

Yeah, DP is very nice for mana conservation but mana isn’t really an issue for our spec. Giving up double beacon because you have mana issues is pretty bad unless you have a 2nd Hpal in the group.

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You keep mentioning mercy and Aos but never mention devo. Devo aura is an extremely strong raid CD and one of the main reasons you’d want an Hpal. It’s not the only reason but it’s certainly nice to have for mythic progression.

My crit is at 23% (29% in uldir). Beginning of uldir progression I had ~19-20% crit though and still no mana issues. You’ll definitely run oom but it shouldn’t really be 2 or so minutes before the fight ends.

LoD is good for what it is. It’s a group heal (not a raid wide heal) and it’s decent. It’s definitely weaker than in legion since we lost second sunrise and Dusk before dawn or whatever it was.

AC isn’t overpowered but it’s really good. SW is fairly close (about ~5% behind) but they’re both strong options. Hpals do rely on good CD management however your healing outside of that shouldn’t really be garbage and certainly not worthless.

I thought I made it plain I wasnt playing this character for mythic progression, doing it on one character is quite enough for me thanks So saying aura mastery is good cause of that is kind of a moot point.
Also im not saying I run oom at 95% sunshine, no im saying I do oom. Even on the harder fights in Mythic Antorus I barely ever ran out of mana it was the one constant I had. Nowadays the last stages of a fight and im oom.
It maybe cause im old and full of mold (Which it probably is) but 24% crit doesnt cut it on heals that are a lot less impressive then last expansion. Also im really not convinced about LoD being good, last expansion it had so many traits to make it worthwhile it felt really useful. Nowadays it barely manages to heal a slight boo-boo. Couple this with a low crit chance it barely ever manages to crit therefore is doubly useless.

Maybe im missing the point and you are just a better player but im really interested to see one of your logs to see what you cast and when you oom.

[Mijati]

oO if anyone still compares the holy pala logs with yourself .. than u probably all are doing something wrong ..... cuz i cant imagine, that anyone here talking about HPS or talents. is able to heal solo a 20 people team on HC or heal 20 people with 2 healers at all ....
so far i did not read the fact, that 95% of this logs are garbage and dont even should or could be compared to anything at all since they were spacaly made for worldoflogs in generall ....
and dont even risk to tell me iam wrong , cuz i directly can point u to such logs in the top ranks.i know it cuz i compared my logs to others in the past 3 weeks

[Thestuff1992]

I thought I made it plain I wasnt playing this character for mythic progression, doing it on one character is quite enough for me thanks So saying aura mastery is good cause of that is kind of a moot point.
Also im not saying I run oom at 95% sunshine, no im saying I do oom. Even on the harder fights in Mythic Antorus I barely ever ran out of mana it was the one constant I had. Nowadays the last stages of a fight and im oom.
It maybe cause im old and full of mold (Which it probably is) but 24% crit doesnt cut it on heals that are a lot less impressive then last expansion. Also im really not convinced about LoD being good, last expansion it had so many traits to make it worthwhile it felt really useful. Nowadays it barely manages to heal a slight boo-boo. Couple this with a low crit chance it barely ever manages to crit therefore is doubly useless.

Maybe im missing the point and you are just a better player but im really interested to see one of your logs to see what you cast and when you oom.

you can’t just say our CDs are bad because you don’t do mythic. I mean shit even for heroic progression devo is great. If all you care about is parsing then you basically have 1 option. It doesn’t do awful healing if you use it properly but it’s certainly no salv or legion AoS either but saying it’s a moot point because you don’t like it doesn’t make it bad.

Hpal was easier in legion no doubt. We were OP and it was easy to do well. We had 100% crit by NH/ToS, our legendaries were good, tier bonuses were mostly good and our artifact was decent. Even if you fucked up CD management in legion you could make up for it outside of CDs unless you completely botched the only AoS you’d get. However now in BFA screwing up CD timings can feel pretty shitty as AC is huge but if the raid is topped off by your 2nd judgement then you pretty much wasted it and that feels bad and leads to poor hps. Mercy isn’t quite the same as it’s weaker but if you get it right it’s decent.

Our heals “feel” weaker but they aren’t too much weaker in all honesty. Yes, not having 100% crit or 90% crit by now is weaker than legion, that was our biggest nerf. Everything just feels weaker due to artifact being gone (when SS would proc you’d definitely notice). You can literally just look at spell coefficients to determine this yourself, it’s all there.

A lot of people that rolled Hpal because it was OP in legion are upset about it because it’s been relegated to being regular rather than ridiculous. However we’re fairly close to most healers, yes Hpriest and MW can be crazy but you shouldn’t be getting left heavily behind. Mana conservation was also 10x easier in legion due to our crit being so high and a large majority of our healing coming from AW and AoS which are pretty mana efficient.

In terms of your mana, are you spamming FoL? That’s probably the main reason your going oom. I’m almost positive you are if you have a “parse mentality” but you shouldn’t do this. Holy light is our main filler now whereas in legion you could use FoL much more. This is another big-ish change that a lot of hpals don’t really know and it leads to them going oom much faster than they should. Holy light is our filler now, not FoL. Use it when you need it but not more than that unless the fight is short.

Anyway, if all you care about is parsing then honestly just copy top logs that use mercy. They’re most likely padding.

Either way tho man if you don’t like Hpal just roll something else. Holy priest is strong, disc is strong, MW is strong and they all feel pretty good. You can look through logs on WCL yourself and see what others do for padding if that’s your game plan. Simple as that. I can send you mine but you could just look through the top logs (I’ll be there on some of them for mythic) and get all the info you need.

[tikcol]

Oh right, I'll try this. It was my understanding that now that beacon of the lightbringer was taken off us we had 2 choices 2 beacons or BoV. Also I have heard nothing but bad publicity from Awakening since you cant know when its going to proc so it could proc 12 times on trash then 0 on the boss.
In saying that I will give divine purpose a shot.

Disregard the DP advice completely. It's a niche talent for particular situations like Mother. You will want faith for most raid encounters.

[Deleted]

You can't compare yourself to MW/HPriest, they are currently HPS machines. Holy Paladin still brings invaluable tank healing and as you said, powerful CD healing.

And the usual question; Are people dying in raids to HPS?

Mistweaver is the better tank healer in BfA by a large margin. And yes, HPS is an issue on fights like Vectis mythic. The thing is that holy pala has to play extremely well to do similar HPS than other healers can do easily. It is possible, but much more stressful. My fix would be to make LoD heal more targets than it currently does.
@Tovart: yes, also pick Devotion Aura over Mercy, unless you have more than one holy paladin. It´s hidden HPS pretty much, similar to disc barrier vs that other talent. Smart raiders know this.

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Disregard the DP advice completely. It's a niche talent for particular situations like Mother. You will want faith for most raid encounters.

DP should be baseline tbh.

[tikcol]

Mistweaver is the better tank healer in BfA by a large margin. And yes, HPS is an issue on fights like Vectis mythic. The thing is that holy pala has to play extremely well to do similar HPS than other healers can do easily. It is possible, but much more stressful. My fix would be to make LoD heal more targets than it currently does.
@Tovart: yes, also pick Devotion Aura over Mercy, unless you have more than one holy paladin. It´s hidden HPS pretty much, similar to disc barrier vs that other talent. Smart raiders know this.

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DP should be baseline tbh.

It should.. And they shouldn't have removed lightbringer. Hpala mastery is either godlike or a dead stat and that talent helped balancing it out. It pains me when I have to heal targets near 40 yards with the realization that the 900~ mastery I have are being completely useless.

It's such a weird design.

[Deleted]

I could hold my own easy with any healing class last expansion and had powerful cds to boot.

Cant you see how ridiculous that was? A paladin should never have the hps of a Hpriest because a Hpriest can never match Hpala in other utility lr survivability

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Healers are specialized this expansion, like they always should of been. Holy priests and misweavers bring next to no utility, but provide big numbers, palas and shamen are strong in their specific niche and have more utility than they need, but cannot provide raw numbers. Druids and disc are the outliers, where resto is just kinda weak atm and disc has way too high numbers, considering it has decent DR cooldowns. So expect more buffs/nerf to them.

If all healers did the same healing, as it was in legion, we would be in the same situation, where holy priests and misweavers are inferior specs, and are only taken when you have no other choice. Except this time druids would also join them, since they lost most of their utility from the artifact.

One very important thing you are forgetting about druids, mobility, they are by far and away the most mobile healer in the game, in no way should they have the same throughput as turret healers who lose most of their hps during movement mechanica, eapecially extended ones

Reato druids also have decent representation across the board