Can anyone explain how RnG has materially gotten worse since Classic?

[Tradu]

If people really see bis now as max tf with socket and leech, it's no wonder why people cry som much about it. What a terrible way to look at it. The whining finally make sense. Stop dreaming. If that's the way you look at it, then BiS is unreachable. Better chance to win the top prize in the lottery.

BiS is base ilvl within your raiding skill(normal/hc/mythic etc) So your BiS in mythic Uldir will be 385.

And yes, it's a lot easier to get BiS now than in both Vanilla and TBC. For non-delusional people that is.

Except that's not what BiS means. BiS is the best item. Not a worse version of the best item, not a different item. And the problem isn't even necessarily wanting BiS, Blizzard killed that dream, it's that loot has such a big range of power for absolutely no reason. If I kill mythic Zul and get a dagger, and the other rogue also gets a dagger, that should be the same dagger. I shouldn't get one that randomly has a socket and 5 ilevels extra.

[MoanaLisa]

Giving this a bump since it was accidentally deleted during a spam purge last night.

[Craaazyyy]

Giving this a bump since it was accidentally deleted during a spam purge last night.

i was wondering what happened, i thought the topic was fine and the thread was pretty civil

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Except that's not what BiS means. BiS is the best item. Not a worse version of the best item, not a different item. And the problem isn't even necessarily wanting BiS, Blizzard killed that dream, it's that loot has such a big range of power for absolutely no reason. If I kill mythic Zul and get a dagger, and the other rogue also gets a dagger, that should be the same dagger. I shouldn't get one that randomly has a socket and 5 ilevels extra.

and the worst part about it is that sometimes no matter how many times you kill that boss you might never see the dagger that is equally as good as that other rogues dagger even though its the same dagger LOL

[IceMan1763]

I see threads
I heard guild mates complain
Over
And over

But I don’t understand why they do it. In classic loot had horrible drop chances, with some guilds going 6+ months without getting a right for their left or a left for their right.

At worse it hasn’t gotten better but it certainly isn’t worse.

Am I missing something or am I right to conclude that WoW, 14 years later, is still full of people whining about dice rolls in a Dungeons and Dragons-esque game?

I think the mistake people like you tend to make is the assumption that every complaint about the increase in RNG is a comparison to Classic. For many people, like me, I didn't consider Classic WOW to be a very good game. I hardly played it and chose to play EQ2 instead, which at the time I found to be a bit better game overall. I didn't really consider WOW to be good until Wrath. From Classic to Wrath, all of the shitty ass RNG that existed in Classic was pretty much done away with in favor of more deterministic loot systems like the badge system.

My view is that most of the "RNG is so much worse!" complaints aren't comparing RNG in the current WOW era to Classic. They're comparing it to an expansion, and considering Wrath is BY FAR the most popular xpac of this game, most of those people are comparing to Wrath. The amount of RNG in the loot system in Legion and BFA (although BFA dials it back a bit) compared to Wrath is OBJECTIVELY MORE. I don't get why people like the OP bury their head in the sand and can't admit it, or pull out this strawman argument by assuming all of those complaints are comparing to Classic WOW loot, which most people hated. Did people complain when bullshit Classic WOW loot was massively done away with and the loot system was vastly improved in Wrath? Not many and 12 million people paid for subs then.... just saying.

[Magicpot]

I see threads
I heard guild mates complain
Over
And over

But I don’t understand why they do it. In classic loot had horrible drop chances, with some guilds going 6+ months without getting a right for their left or a left for their right.

At worse it hasn’t gotten better but it certainly isn’t worse.

Am I missing something or am I right to conclude that WoW, 14 years later, is still full of people whining about dice rolls in a Dungeons and Dragons-esque game?

You get a lot of gear now, but the gear you want is behind 3-4 layers of RNG. It has to drop, it has to be the right piece, it has to forge, it can get extra sockets and stats. Your "bis item" that you chase after is now forever out of reach. My BiS trinket is a 400 titanforge with socket and leech or avoidance that drops from a late uldir boss. Completely unreasonable to ever expect to get. Until warforging was introduced you might wait 6 months for getting gear in a slot, but if you did, that was the best version of that item.

[Kokolums]

In classic, most people didnt care about gear. They were more interested in having fun with friends. The percentage of people who cleared MC was amazingly small until maybe the very end with zulgurub coming ot making MC easy.

[XDurionX]

People just knew jack about itemization back in vanilla, they just saw purple and were happy. Now an item that isn't BiS is "unusable", specs that aren't FotM are "unplayable".

The problem is players' entitlement, not RNG per se. Objectively, getting geared has never been easier than today.

[Thirtyrock]

Let's not be so absurd as to compare legendary drop chances to normal loot drops, ok?

It's RNG, and then there's RNG inside that RNG, and RNG inside that RNG. That's how it got worse... In Vanilla shit dropped one way, that was it, there was only one version of that item. There was no warforge or titanforge crap, random gem slots, there was no getting "rewarded" with AP instead of loot... What we have right now is a system of RNG stacked on top of RNG to create a neverending treadmill for loot, with no goal at the end.

Yeah, I miss the ability to know, 100% what my best in slot was, where it was going to come from, and what my overall chances of getting it were. Now it could come from so many different places and the same piece could be BIS or just OK depending on TF & Socket.

[Necromation]

Think of it as inception.

In the games current state upgrades are often held behind multiple layers of RNG.

Its one of many methods of bloat to create grinds to compensate for the lack of stimulating content in terms of PvE.

[Craaazyyy]

I think the mistake people like you tend to make is the assumption that every complaint about the increase in RNG is a comparison to Classic. For many people, like me, I didn't consider Classic WOW to be a very good game. I hardly played it and chose to play EQ2 instead, which at the time I found to be a bit better game overall. I didn't really consider WOW to be good until Wrath. From Classic to Wrath, all of the shitty ass RNG that existed in Classic was pretty much done away with in favor of more deterministic loot systems like the badge system.

My view is that most of the "RNG is so much worse!" complaints aren't comparing RNG in the current WOW era to Classic. They're comparing it to an expansion, and considering Wrath is BY FAR the most popular xpac of this game, most of those people are comparing to Wrath. The amount of RNG in the loot system in Legion and BFA (although BFA dials it back a bit) compared to Wrath is OBJECTIVELY MORE. I don't get why people like the OP bury their head in the sand and can't admit it, or pull out this strawman argument by assuming all of those complaints are comparing to Classic WOW loot, which most people hated. Did people complain when bullshit Classic WOW loot was massively done away with and the loot system was vastly improved in Wrath? Not many and 12 million people paid for subs then.... just saying.

its actually a huge problem overall.. when you tell that you prefer old wow people always assume its classic when its not LOL

[Magical Mudcrab]

It's a few things.

Better gear is easier to acquire now, but for those who like to min/max, it's gotten harder. Items with multiple stats, and things like Azerite Traits has made 'targetting' the best difficult.

It's also a case of the carrot. Before, you knew that X item that you need dropped off X boss. You run it again, and again, until it drops. Just like mounts. But now, it's becoming difficult to determine where that best/next item may come from.

It's not just that, there's also warforging and titanforging now that make the situation even worse. It used to be that if you get BiS, you knew it was BiS and that there was nothing else that could top it. Now there's a constant worry of titanforge and this perpetual hamster wheel that you're forever stuck in so long as you don't have all titanforge items. It also makes drops feel worse, since when you get a new item it can be an upgrade but even if it's a BiS item it's not as good as the BiS item could be with titanforge.

Feels bad man.

[yjmark]

Am I missing something or am I right to conclude that WoW, 14 years later, is still full of people whining about dice rolls in a Dungeons and Dragons-esque game?

lol - this made me laugh. It's very true, but still made me laugh.

Personally, I think people are complaining a lot about it now because Blizz specifically said that they did not like the RNG aspect of Legion legendaries and wanted to fix that. But, they didn't. So, it rubs many the wrong way.

[Softbottom]

dunno how people think its worse when vanilla was two items for 40 people and 1% bis drops

Pretty much this. I loved killing stuff in MC and getting 2 shaman tier pieces being alliance... good times.

[Powerogue]

It hasn't, but for some reason people think they have to obtain a very specific piece of gear, and that it has to be titanforged with a socket before they're "done." So they grind it religiously until it's not fun anymore.

News flash: that .01% dps boost from 3 months of grinding the same boss is not going to make the difference between beating a boss and not.

[Uurdz]

Better gear is easier to acquire now, but for those who like to min/max, it's gotten harder. Items with multiple stats, and things like Azerite Traits has made 'targetting' the best difficult.

It's also a case of the carrot. Before, you knew that X item that you need dropped off X boss. You run it again, and again, until it drops. Just like mounts. But now, it's becoming difficult to determine where that best/next item may come from.

Great points, that's valid and i hadn't thought that many people would be focussing on Min/Max. I know its relevant but perhaps it is more critical to people than i would have thought.

[seleri]

People just knew jack about itemization back in vanilla, they just saw purple and were happy. Now an item that isn't BiS is "unusable", specs that aren't FotM are "unplayable".

The problem is players' entitlement, not RNG per se. Objectively, getting geared has never been easier than today.

This sums it up perfectly.

It's mostly people that have an unhealthy of obsession with wanting BiS gear, which is basically impossible now. Overall, it's good for the game because it means there's almost always a chance for an upgrade and that extra surprise for the average player outweighs the negative of "needing" BiS for the tiny percentage of players that care about that.

[cparle87]

How to get BiS item in Vanilla:
Step 1: Kill boss
Step 2: Loot drops

Done

How to get BiS item in BFA:
Step 1: Figure out if it's from M+ or raids
Step 2: Kill boss/run M+
Step 3: Item drops
Step 4: Item needs to proc TF up to max
Step 5: Item needs to proc socket
Step 5.5: Item needs to proc tertiary stat

Done

Step 1, kill boss.
Step 2, loot drops.
Step 3, pray your class can use it.
Step 4, pray your class's raiding spec can use it.
Step 5, pray you don't have 4-5 people competing.
Step 6, pray you have enough DKP.

[Malfecto]

Intermittent schedules of reinforcement. That's how they keep you playing.

[Charge me Doctor]

Am I missing something or am I right to conclude that WoW, 14 years later, is still full of people whining about dice rolls in a Dungeons and Dragons-esque game?

You aren't missing something. In classic you had plenty if not more whiners, except they were concentrated on various guild forums, and now they are concentrated here, for you to see and enjoy.

RNG got better, but that's not the case, since whiners gonna whine anyways

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yet people who raided regularly got their bis stuff eventually. for some reason that doesn't happen anymore. Connect the dots

Players in classic rarely had their full bis sets, it was very rare occurrence unless whole guilds goal is to build bis set for this one guy, which is ridiculous

Our best priest didn't get two last items for his "bis" slot until TBC, then he got triggered by greens being better than his "bis" gear and quit wow.

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How to get BiS item in Vanilla:
Step 1: Kill boss
Step 2: Loot drops

Done

How to get BiS item in BFA:
Step 1: Figure out if it's from M+ or raids
Step 2: Kill boss/run M+
Step 3: Item drops
Step 4: Item needs to proc TF up to max
Step 5: Item needs to proc socket
Step 5.5: Item needs to proc tertiary stat

Done

bis items weren't exclusive to rauds in classic. I vividly remember having to run sunken temple with our druid for his bis (!) shoulders.

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Shorter in Vanilla than now, considering BiS gear now would be 395 socketed(meaning at least +10 ilevel warforge) on every slot apart from azerite, which would likely involve M+ azerite, which you can only get at most 1 of per week, with a 1/100 or so chance(with some BLP, so eventually it might be a 1/20 or however many azerite pieces there are).

You can just close your eyes on titanforge and sockets and call it a day when you've got non-titanforged pieces all together and be happy that some of them got improved while you was doing your list. It's a fucking list after all.

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It hasn't gotten worse at all.
The complaining is mostly by people not intelligent enough to understand statistics and how to deal with TF. They can't wrap their heads around each level of probability having its own BiS list, and picking the one you are comfortable with.
Then there were particularly uninspiring expansions like Cataclysm, that guaranteed people having a super easily obtainable BiS checklists, that poisoned the mind.

You existing make my brain happy

[Deleted]

How to get BiS item in Vanilla:
Step 1: Kill boss
Step 2: Loot drops

Done

How to get BiS item in BFA:
Step 1: Figure out if it's from M+ or raids
Step 2: Kill boss/run M+
Step 3: Item drops
Step 4: Item needs to proc TF up to max
Step 5: Item needs to proc socket
Step 5.5: Item needs to proc tertiary stat

Done

Forgot a key part, if your item is a azerite piece from mythic + you have a total of 1 chance in the whole week between hundreds of items to get it.