Saurfang is an SI:7/Alliance asset

[KrakHed]

Except there clearly isn't seeing as peace wasn't even close to being an option under Thrall's rule, and he's the softest warchief they ever had.
The Horde and the Alliance are nothing alike and have completely different ideals compared to eachother, much like some humans have completely different ideals compared to other humans.

You can't just go "oh well they're kinda similar in this one specific way, that should be enough".

It was very close to being an option.

[Feanoro]

It's hilarious for all the chest-pounding about Horde valuing practicality, when we're given an actual situation that is practical all around, suddenly it's bad.

Saurfang escaping is practical, he may or may not realize he had help. Should he have just sat in the cell?
Shaw helping him escape is practical, as he'll likely be a disruptive element to Sylv and the Meat Shields.

Until we have proof of a deal with Anduin, calling him an Alliance agent is one helluva stretch.

[Jastall]

The expansion is about a faction war. Having the person you're supposed to back be a stooge, willingly or otherwise, doesn't quite work. The changes to the Dagger in the Dark formula make Saurfang an even less appealing candidate than he was already. It doesn't particularly matter whether Anduin told him or not what matters is that he was freed as part of an Alliance plot to presumably divide the Horde. Now, Saurfang could rebel against his handlers and continue the war once he takes over, which is my hope, but it still means that he starts out tainted and we have far less reason to back him than we have to back Vol'jin at the same point in Mists. The reactions in this thread and on other forums demonstrate what I'm talking about.



Of course it's on Saurfang, your freedom and future agenda being entirely contingent on whether the Alliance let you go is pretty far removed from fighting the same enemy because your agenda aligns with both of you being semi-equal parties, as was the Siege, or especially Battle for UC which you wisely ditched as a talking point. It's like how people try to defend Baine by hiding behind Vol'jin accepting Varian's aid. Vol'jin was already going to do this and he never willingly ditched the Horde, the one time he was away from the Horde was when he was near death and had to recover.

The expansion is also supposed to be faction pride, yet here I was, a guy who liked Thrall's Horde forced to go along with the Scourge redux for all of 8.0 which made me about as proud of my faction as I was of my latest dump. Welcome to how lots of Hordies felt when the pre-patch dropped.

That's he part of a plot makes him no traitor at all, and I couldn't give less of a shit about Anduin's "taint" if I tried given that he has the planning ability of, well, Anduin. Saurfang going off any prospective Alliance rails is more or less assured, if they even exist in the first place and he wasn't just released out of King Saint's good will.

How were the Horde equal parties during Siege? At the end the faction has its war machine dedimated, is on its knees and literally only survives because Varian was hit by the stupid bat since gameplay demands no faction gets dismantled. It couldn't even have invested the city without timely Alliance aid, and that's in the Horde version. In the Alliance one they literally do everything and then hand over the city back to the Horde with a slap on the wrist. They were a lot more equal during the Siege of Undercity, but nobody in the Horde cared that the Alliance did fully half the work for us back then.

If we get confirmation that Saurfang is actually in league with Anduin, then yeah, I'll speak of treason and taints as well. Until then, he's using them as they are using him.

[mysticx]

I'm sure the Alliance, or at least SI 7, is happy to have Saurfang go cause some turmoil in the Horde. But as far as him being a 'plant' in SI 7's pocket, I see no reason to believe that.

SI:7 isn’t competent enough to make Saurfang an “asset” (And i believe he would never do it, he’s against Sylvanas, not the Horde in general), deliberately letting him go so he can cause turmoil on his own accord would already be uncharacteristically clever of them, in fact...

[Super Dickmann]

The expansion is also supposed to be faction pride, yet here I was, a guy who liked Thrall's Horde forced to go along with the Scourge redux for all of 8.0 which made me about as proud of my faction as I was of my latest dump. Welcome to how lots of Hordies felt when the pre-patch dropped.

That's he part of a plot makes him no traitor at all, and I couldn't give less of a shit about Anduin's "taint" if I tried given that he has the planning ability of, well, Anduin. Saurfang going off any prospective Alliance rails is more or less assured, if they even exist in the first place and he wasn't just released out of King Saint's good will.

He was released by Shaw, how much rule Anduin has in it isn't all that important. Now I understand that you personally are more invested in resolving the war plot and getting back to fighting big bad dudes than whether the current faction pride element is intact or not and that's on you, but it's pretty evidentiary that most people here maining Horde would much prefer he just breakout rather than be released as part of SI:7 because it compromises him going forward. His victory will be an Alliance victory. That he's a traitor is pretty much inarguable, but it's mostly a normative question since when he wins he won't be one. It would be a better Horde narrative for it to be a clean retread of Mists at this stage, because at least there Vol'jin and the others rebelled on their own and the Horde was on its way to reaching whatever its supposed to be about on their own and the Alliance just provided the muscle.

Mind, this is good for the Alliance writing as a whole, this has been a great patch for Shaw between this and arming the blood trolls he's the one person in the Alliance allowed to use clever subversive tactics, as @Feanoro points out, but it does no favours to the idea of the Horde being able to break itself out of its apparent funk on its own.

How were the Horde equal parties during Siege? At the end the faction has its war machine dedimated, is on its knees and literally only survives because Varian was hit by the stupid bat since gameplay demands no faction gets dismantled. It couldn't even have invested the city without timely Alliance aid, and that's in the Horde version. In the Alliance one they literally do everything and then hand over the city back to the Horde with a slap on the wrist. They were a lot more equal during the Siege of Undercity, but nobody in the Horde cared that the Alliance did fully half the work for us back then.

Vol'jin accepted the Alliance's aid but he was already set on this route regardless. He was going to fight them anyway, and his initial bluff to the Alliance player even threatens that the Alliance wouldn't be able to win the Uprising without him. He gets called on it, sure, but he's clearly setting himself up as an independent agent. Vol'jin rebelling was not contingent on the Alliance enabling him, he was already doing it, everything Saurfang does from here on out on the other hand is entirely based on the fact that the Alliance let him out to undermine the Horde.

The Siege of Undercity was a declaration of war from Varian, because they were up against the Legion, a shared enemy and he even still considered quite rationally that what he saw down there and Sylvanas enabling it was grounds enough for him to declare war on Thrall. Once again, the Alliance wasn't decisive in the action taken, the Horde would do it anyway and in this case the Alliance even complicated a situation that the Horde wanted to resolve on its own.

[Schattenlied]

There is no "puppet" in letting someone do something they wanted to do anyways.

[Jastall]

He was released by Shaw, how much rule Anduin has in it isn't all that important. Now I understand that you personally are more invested in resolving the war plot and getting back to fighting big bad dudes than whether the current faction pride element is intact or not and that's on you, but it's pretty evidentiary that most people here maining Horde would much prefer he just breakout rather than be released as part of SI:7 because it compromises him going forward. His victory will be an Alliance victory. That he's a traitor is pretty much inarguable, but it's mostly a normative question since when he wins he won't be one. It would be a better Horde narrative for it to be a clean retread of Mists at this stage, because at least there Vol'jin and the others rebelled on their own and the Horde was on its way to reaching whatever its supposed to be about on their own and the Alliance just provided the muscle.

Mind, this is good for the Alliance writing as a whole, this has been a great patch for Shaw between this and arming the blood trolls he's the one person in the Alliance allowed to use clever subversive tactics, as @Feanoro points out, but it does no favours to the idea of the Horde being able to break itself out of its apparent funk on its own.




Vol'jin accepted the Alliance's aid but he was already set on this route regardless. He was going to fight them anyway, and his initial bluff to the Alliance player even threatens that the Alliance wouldn't be able to win the Uprising without him. He gets called on it, sure, but he's clearly setting himself up as an independent agent. Vol'jin rebelling was not contingent on the Alliance enabling him, he was already doing it, everything Saurfang does from here on out on the other hand is entirely based on the fact that the Alliance let him out to undermine the Horde.

The Siege of Undercity was a declaration of war from Varian, because they were up against the Legion, a shared enemy and he even still considered quite rationally that what he saw down there and Sylvanas enabling it was grounds enough for him to declare war on Thrall. Once again, the Alliance wasn't decisive in the action taken, the Horde would do it anyway and in this case the Alliance even complicated a situation that the Horde wanted to resolve on its own.

How does his victory make it an Alliance one? If these idiots think Saurfang will be a good boy, let them. No skin off his back. Nothing tells he didn't want to escape in the first place, what he didn't want to do is go back to Sylvanas's Horde where he would be paraded as an achievement of hers. If Shaw shows him the door and offers him a risk-free scenario, let's do it.

It's basically the Ulfric Stromcloak situation from Skyrim. The elves release him and think him an agent on their payroll, but if you side with the Stromcloaks he ends up doing exactly what he isn't supposed to do, unite Skyrim as a force that can fight them. That's probably where Blizzard got the idea, even. Or it is just that they needed to have Saurfang break out, Sylvanas would never do it, and having him break out by his lonesome would have been a bit ridiculous. Now right after his escape some might have called Ulfric a traitor, but if he ends up throwing off any possible plan his prospective handlers might have, who really cares?

The only part that does make no sense whatsoever is the PC siding with Saurfang no matter what, even after finding the evidence and being able to express pro-Sylvanss sentiment through the questline... but again, welcome to sudden railroad city, population: the entire Horde. Isn't faction pride a wonderful thing.

Oh, and Zekhan as well. How does he know Saurfang escaped? How did he get there? Why does he claim the Forsaken are there to kill or capture Saurfang, where did he learn that information?

[Hubbl3]

"I was only following orders" is not a defence for war crimes. He did the right thing.

He did plenty of war crimes? What are you talking about. He will still be indicted and possibly executed, along with almost the entire Horde including most of the Tauren. If we are going with the stupid "war crimes" thing.

[Vakir]

Your memory is extremely selective. While Garrosh did have a lot of opposition among the playerbase, you've already started out with the position that's of no relevance as to whether Blizzard are doing what they intended to or not. Cataclysm was not a morality parable, at least not entirely. It was, like Wrath had already built up, a chance to have its cake and eat it too. A lot of people wanted the War in Warcraft and Blizzard wanted to both do that and do a story about the Old Horde being bad. So to that end you both followed Garrosh and to a lesser extent Sylvanas in doing bad things and gaining territories, under much more legitimate grievances than the Horde have now, but you also had setup to get rid of Garrosh later.

I mean, ignoring that the people who want the War in Warcraft this particular way are pretty dumb, no, my memory is not selective.

https://youtu.be/E7fVTabpyf8?t=1048

Again - I'm talking about intent. This is not about Metzen's competence, Thrall's writing quality, his status as a self-insert or not...this was clearly the intended trajectory of the story.

Nah, it was always intended to go that way. Sorry to break it to you. Wrath was "setting up" for that, but Garrosh in every single conceivable context of Wrath was a complete raving moron, and the only way it didn't transfer into Cataclysm 100% was the fact that they had to come up with justifications for giving a more balanced zone distribution (i.e. lots of Horde wins) after Vanilla shipped with a disproportionate skew in the Alliance zone amount. The entire reason they did the whole redemption schtick with Varian later was in reaction to his equally bad reception during this period of time. People forget that bad reaction to Pandas aside, Mists was a big ol' peace offering to a community mad-pissed off at the storytelling over that last 4 years. And yeah, Wrath was about when the lore started to go fast to hell beyond the poor showing with Vanilla/TBC with the amount of retcons and changes, what with Varian turning from some rando with a caster rod in a jail cell to Conan.

Mists of Pandaria was the best possible version of the rebellion story and even it wasn't really good. That's because Mists and Cataclysm still remembered that the Horde has a population and that population has separate views and is swayed by in-story arguments. We were often reminded that Garrosh was popular with orcs, but not with the other races and what their grievances were. Garrosh's overthrow wasn't a one-dimensional "muh honor" affair, but built over a number of patches to show why the other racial leaders wanted him gone. Some because of honor - see Baine, some because of the mistreatment of their people - Vol'jin and Lor'themar and others for practical reasons - Sylvanas and Gallywix. This meant that even after Garrosh was gone and you had an admittedly stupid peace status quo, you still had variety in the faction and the group you alienated was comparatively small. Not so BFA.

Right, but like...WHY is that neo-orc perspective popular? The in-universe justifications that were raised during stuff like Cataclysm and The Shattering prior to that didn't hold up. "We're having resource issues. That's why we can sprout an entirely new iron-fortified city after the old one is...APPARENTLY destroyed? And our encampments are also super-awesome and instant with no issues? While Westfall has food lines?" And again, all the bitching and kerfuffle over Thrall being some kind of green-guilt peacebroker was manufactured. Durotar was never presented for a good 6 years as having some kind of resource crisis and orcs were never presented as having some kind of issue with the leadership. It largely came as a result OF having to make up excuses for Garrosh to be angry largely so they could create a faction conflict that was stupid to begin with. The Wrathgate is literally a solid 15-20 minutes (counting the removed scenario) of "...but WHY?" questions.

Like, I don't get it. Warcraft becomes every other boring-ass fantasy world when you boil the Horde down to having lots of evil or barely-neutral influences stemming from the monster races, so why the fuck do people want to go back to that?

You're ascribing motives to Blizzard that aren't real. Blizzard don't give two shits about the bad blood between factions, they actively push it and it's one of their most briliant marketing decisions. If they wanted to end the faction conflict they had the means after Pandaria, they didn't, because it's intrinsic to the game on a system level. The game telling you that fighting the other faction is bad, be their buddy like Baine or Saurfang, when the majority of content is about fighting the other faction and you have no choice but to do so and at the same time, a core element PvP and the new features are all based around the faction conflict. If they have a lesson to teach, it's disingenuous which is why people don't want it. They sold this as a conflict where both sides had valid points, but instead they made a black and white parable which nobody likes because it removes what depth the game already has away in favour of one particular soapbox and one particular character, i.e Anduin and Golden.

They kinda do care. It's why we keep swinging back around to this bullshit. There's always conflict, then a cool off, then conflict again, and it's largely to create gameplay excuses to continue a system that's boring and outdated. The faction division in general is old-hat and not reflective of the current nature of where popular games are.

And indeed, WoW is not the same game it was 14 years ago, with a story that wasn't the same 14 years ago - but they're still pushing that same exact kind of morality since long, LONG before Golden came in. Anytime something goes in that direction, the war is always depicted as ultimately a "bad" thing. They market it otherwise this way, but remember how much push back the idea of a faction conflict centered expansion got. And now we're seeing why - neither side can truly win, and it requires all the disparate and confused themes of each faction being brought to the foreground.

That is to say, you CAN'T have all of those different concepts and orientations floating around the Horde and have it be a cohesive group involved and driven around a singular purpose in a war context without it becoming a huge motherfucking mess. That's why you have the situation that spawned this thread. Eventually, SOME kind of core philosophy has to exist that binds the Horde, and you can't have that core philosophy be the one that is heavily under Sylvanas without pissing people off.

And that's why the marketing was centered around factions and with her as the very popular covergirl - you were fucking duped. I was calling it from BlizzCon Day 1. You were going to be duped and it happened.

Because the Horde and Alliance aren't factions anymore until there's a unifying, agreed upon purpose and set of principles. Until then, they are t-shirts. They are bumper stickers. They are faction transfer microtransactions. They are arguments over who gets the cooler allied race with the least tortured reason for being added. And as long as people continue to try and push for a narrative where the two fight on extreme and highly aggressive footing and make any given attempt for diplomacy "MAN THIS IS FOR PUUUUSSSIES, I WANT WAAAARRRRGGGH" it'll continue to be devoid of meaning or validity.

And it's laughable. The WC3 Horde existed for the span of one game and its expansion. The addition of the Forsaken, who do the same stuff now as they did then, except with higher-res models already gutted Thrall's Horde and he was later depicted as weak and unable to keep the Horde under control or to answer his people who wanted different leadership, see the Wrath and Cata-era stories. The blood elves did get an asinine redemption, but this only got them to a point where for ten years now they've had no thematic link to the Horde whatsoever. Goblins are morally bankrupt. With the addition of Nightborne and the Mag'har, who are slavers per their scenario, you enter into an even larger discrepancy because 'muh honor' is no longer a denominator the Horde can fall into. It hasn't been since WC3 and that's why they ditched it. They will bring it back, but just as with Vol'jin, they'll eventually see it limits their story potential and we'll have another of these faction wars because Alliance vs. Horde is the core conceit of the game on the most basic system level.

And from a Watsonian POV, that's true. But from a Doylist POV, that's not supposed to be the player's takeaway. You're still supposed to side with Saurfang, and Vol'jin, and Zekhan, and to a lesser extent Baine. It's broadcast so plainly at every turn as soon as you peel away the lying marketing that exists entirely to swindle people into getting pumped about investing $50 for a product they hadn't played yet for reskins.

The Horde and Alliance are BRANDS at this point. Which is why until there's some unifying concept akin to either "muh honor" or "let's murder and skin babies," you are gonna continue to get basically nothing and a Warchief every expac or so. And the bad news is, the former is far more likely than the latter.

People understand the point of Blizzard's story ,they just don't like it because it's poorly argued and unconvincing. Their antagonists are more convincing than their protagonists and after drumming up faction pride for so long expecting people to back subversives opposing their faction obviously isn't going to fly. And Blizzard know this, which is why from the framing to the merchandise, the evil hot chick is the centerpiece and not the peacecow. It's why Saurfang is associated with Old Warrior in their marketing and not with him electing to rot in a cell or with his support for the War of Thorns throughout, a support that's echoed by the majority of the Horde.

Old Soldier ends with that because the alternative is death, which is why he ends up bladestorming a raid not 20 canonical minutes later. But when you're captured and just watched someone murder a chunk of their own army and raise them, the goal has been changed a bit, no?

I'm sorry, but you're going to continue to be duped if you don't fully recognize that you are incapable of being the baddies in our good ol' year of 2018. Go play Warhammer or something.

And Thrall failed spectacularly. He didn't redeem the Horde, he lost his powers when fighing Garrosh and he lost his hammer after becoming a manic depressive and abdicating all responsibility. And incidentally, that's why Thrall is a good character whereas Anduin isn't. Thrall legitimately struggled to bring peace to a people that were 100% not suited for it and failed. If it were told by more competent storytellers it'd be legit tragic, instead it's just really funny because of how Metzen's shilling for his author avatar still ended with him as a washed out has-been while the Horde defaults to its most marketable, i.e evil version.

And I agree with this fan reading of it - but it's not the "intended" reading of it. Death of the Author recognition here is A+, and I actually agree with you, albeit only because of conflicts they manufactured - but it's not the intended trajectory of the faction, and largely the defaulting to its most marketable only exists to sell things, followed by pulling the rug out (a dead Warchief or two with them), followed by a cyclical shift again.

It'll continue until they commit one way or the other. Spoilers, one of those ways is feasible and the other is not. :^)

Absolute nonsense. Sylvanas both in her election and in the Legion cinematic was portrayed in a very positive way, from helping the enemy faction leader which you assure is a sign of good behaviour, even saving him, to solemnly deciding to follow her Warchief's orders and ultimately agree with his judgment and act sad at his death, ultimately rallying the Horde to cheers from all others. She is later Garrosh'd in service of the new writers' atrocious narrative, but let's not kid ourselves that this was the framing from the start. Even Stormheim had more nuance than this rubbish.

Yeah, your character's appointment being framed by mysterious circumstances immediately followed by extremely slow, methodical, and portentious voicework about death coming for us all, followed by Sylvanas looking over her shoulder while the funeral pyre frames her in shadow all sinister-like is totally portrayed as a good thing.

Like, holy shit, read visual fucking storytelling. It's like the people saying Garrosh was totes moving towards being "muh honor" in Cataclysm due to Stonetalon's error...despite sitting on a spooky skull throne sneering and slouching like a stereotypical villain.

Like, has anyone here ever read...any fantasy novel...ever? Ever ever? Has anyone here ever watched a freaking movie in their life to understand even the most basic concept of visual storytelling, here made so simple so that actual pre-teens can understand it.

So let me ask you then - what is it YOU think the Horde, as a faction, is? In a sentence or so. Not "well you have all these ingredients to get whatever you want!," what is the ACTUAL faction about?

[Zandalariprelate]

How does his victory make it an Alliance one? If these idiots think Saurfang will be a good boy, let them. No skin off his back.

It's basically the Ulfric Stromcloak situation from Skyrim. The elves release him and think him an agent on their payroll, but if you side with the Stromcloaks he ends up doing exactly what he isn't supposed to do, unite Skyrim as a force that can fight them. That's probably where Blizzard got the idea, even. Or it is just that they needed to have Saurfang break out, Sylvanas would never do it, and having him break out by his lonesome would have been a bit ridiculous. Now right after his escape some might have called Ulfric a traitor, but if he ends up throwing off any possible plan his prospective handlers might have, who really cares?

The only part that does make no sense whatsoever is the PC siding with Saurfang no matter what, even after finding the evidence and being able to express pro-Sylvanss sentiment through the questline... but again, welcome to sudden railroad city, population: the entire Horde. Isn't faction pride a wonderful thing.

The thing is, Skyrim is more easy to take without the empire and said faction could try to retake skyrim again from Ulfric, in this case the horde is losing and another rebellion pretty much leaves the horde in a poor state thst can't fight back and some people really doesn't want to lose, in this case the belves, forsakens and zandalaris after the zuldazar moment.

About the post I hope they don't change the ranger dialogues and keep Saurfang as an ambigous piece of shit and give some justification of kicking out of the horde for good this time, grow tired of him in legion with him wanting to die in the broken shore again in the warrior questline, I want Nazgrel back or make Eitrigg the main orc leader because let's face it, Saurfang is popular because of the vanilla memes and blizzard wanted to milk that, they are even doing that with the rambo guy in the alliance questline

[Blizzard Moneybot]

Well that's his character destroyed. Where the honour in working for your worst enemy?

Ask the Night Elf Dark Rangers that, moments before being raised they were Night Elves trying to retake their homeland, then they are killed, by the Horde, and raised into willing loyalty to Sylvanas? Nothing in this fucking retard story makes any sense any more. Don't you get the theme 'Hope' as in have 'Hope' blizzard's creative development aren't all window licking fucktards with a combined IQ of room temperature.

[bledgor]

Best ending for this abomination is I get to kill Saurfang so he can finally enjoy his "honor".

[Sesto]

Wonder whats going to happen when they make High Elves playable for the Alliance in the Siege of Silvermoon patch

Well what's probably going to happen is we're going to get a lot of Alliance players crying when once again, the Alliance does not get high elves.

[Arrashi]

Ask the Night Elf Dark Rangers that, moments before being raised they were Night Elves trying to retake their homeland, then they are killed, by the Horde, and raised into willing loyalty to Sylvanas? Nothing in this fucking retard story makes any sense any more. Don't you get the theme 'Hope' as in have 'Hope' blizzard's creative development aren't all window licking fucktards with a combined IQ of room temperature.

What if they are just enjoying their freedom from boiking too much ?

In the end, everything is better than being slave race to boiking, so you gotta forgive NEDR, going a little too far.

[Blizzard Moneybot]

What if they are just enjoying their freedom from boiking too much ?

In the end, everything is better than being slave race to boiking, so you gotta forgive NEDR, going a little too far.

Sylvanas is just as bad as Anduin if not worse. 'Slaves to this eternal torment' is probably the fuckiest emo wristcutting line in the game. And being dead is the better option. Not undead.

[Arrashi]

Sylvanas is just as bad as Anduin if not worse. 'Slaves to this eternal torment' is probably the fuckiest emo wristcutting line in the game. And being dead is the better option. Not undead.

Nah, nothing is worse than hearing whispers of anduin in your head.

'Lets be friends"
"Lets make azeroth better place for everyone"
"You are my special friend".

Not a single night elf could resist madness.

Also, dead chicks don't salivate over human meme characters. Unlike shandris.

[Super Dickmann]

I mean, ignoring that the people who want the War in Warcraft this particular way are pretty dumb, no, my memory is not selective.

I'd be offended, but we've had four expansions made to pander to that playerbase while all the characters the muh honor crowd cling to get dragged through the dirt and mocked, so I think it's a fair trade.

Again - I'm talking about intent. This is not about Metzen's competence, Thrall's writing quality, his status as a self-insert or not...this was clearly the intended trajectory of the story.

Through your long rants you seem to be labouring under the impression that I don't know what their intent was. I am well aware of what they intend, it's just that what they incidentaly produce is better than that intent and that the intent runs counter to the systems they've created. Blaming people for identifying more with what they're sold and what they'd want instead of what these hacks are trying to push on them is missing the point. Most people want the product they're sold. Being shocked that they don't like that you're giving them shit for enjoying what they were sold makes you a dumbass. The reason we keep defaulting to the faction war is because it's the heart of the game and a lot of people want it. That you're here stanning for TBC of all expansions, which has by far the worst plot in terms of gutting major characters, from Illidan to Kael'thas to Vashj and turning them into loot pinatas, speak volumes about your handle on the playerbase and on the plot.

Right, but like...WHY is that neo-orc perspective popular? The in-universe justifications that were raised during stuff like Cataclysm and The Shattering prior to that didn't hold up.

You said it yourself, it's because that's the story Blizzard wanted to tell. Blizzard wanted to show that the orcs aren't what Thrall thought they were, that they were sick of his ineffectual leadership that had left them in a barren desert and that even Thrall would cede to the popular will and pick another candidate. Yet, that eventually, under a different, suitable minority leader they would ultimately ditch Garrosh when he went too far and default to being honorable. Until the next one of these and so on. Resource deprivation and being stuck in camps by the other group for a long while tends to give you a poor impression of them, especially when your culture is already violent and warlike. The new architecture looks like this because Blizzard thought it looked cool, the same way all outposts materialize magically within one day of us goign there, it's game mechanics combined with aesthetics.

The Wrathgate is literally a solid 15-20 minutes (counting the removed scenario) of "...but WHY?" questions.

On the contrary, the Wrath to Cataclysm faction war was the most logical one we've had. Varian saw what the Forsaken had been doing and he was rightly pissed. He was also rightly pissed that Green Jesus still allowed slave combat to go on and that the orcs were reverting to the mean. Garrosh in turn was angry at his people's resource deprivation and so on. It's a much more nuanced conflict than we got this time. What lesson Blizzard wanted to impart is incidental, because you seem to confuse the story the devs wanted to tell with the story the audience wants or should like. We know their lesson, we just don't like it and the component parts of it are far more interesting than the whole.

They kinda do care. It's why we keep swinging back around to this bullshit. There's always conflict, then a cool off, then conflict again, and it's largely to create gameplay excuses to continue a system that's boring and outdated. The faction division in general is old-hat and not reflective of the current nature of where popular games are.

I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but considering they've based so many of the expansions off of this already it's pretty clear they're doing it intentionally. They like the tribal stand-off between factions ,hence why they liked the Warbringers into Old Soldier reactions and so on. Controversy generates money.

That is to say, you CAN'T have all of those different concepts and orientations floating around the Horde and have it be a cohesive group involved and driven around a singular purpose in a war context without it becoming a huge motherfucking mess. That's why you have the situation that spawned this thread. Eventually, SOME kind of core philosophy has to exist that binds the Horde, and you can't have that core philosophy be the one that is heavily under Sylvanas without pissing people off.

That's also obvious, they will default to noblesavagery and then to warmongering again in an endless loop. The Horde has no cohesive group identity beyond that it is a reflection of whoever the Warchief is at the time. Ascribing anything else to it is wishful thinking. You can go on and on about muh honor and muh WC3, but the game itself proves you wrong at every turn and the core conceit of the game and its main gameplay elements for this one as well as Mists, Cataclysm and Wrath, as well as bits of Legion do the same. The Horde is honorable or dishonorable purely depending on the needs of the story Blizzard wanted to tell at the time and the segment of the playerbase they want to pander to at the time. The reason BFA fails is because they tried to juggle both at the same time and it isn't working.

And from a Watsonian POV, that's true. But from a Doylist POV, that's not supposed to be the player's takeaway. You're still supposed to side with Saurfang, and Vol'jin, and Zekhan, and to a lesser extent Baine. It's broadcast so plainly at every turn as soon as you peel away the lying marketing that exists entirely to swindle people into getting pumped about investing $50 for a product they hadn't played yet for reskins.

Okay, and? I don't like them. I prefer to play the evil faction because that's more reflective of what I see in game and of WC2 where I started. There's enough people like me that Blizzard pander their marketing around it and risk alienating the muh honor crowd by making them work for Sylvanas for two patches before going "Ahah! It was Mists all along!" as if anyone with two braincells to rub together wasn't already aware that's where it was going. The player's takeaway is that they should latch onto whatever they like the most, and when they fail to be given that option they're annoyed. That's where the marketing bites them in the ass. But it doesn't mean that the player will suddenly decide he likes the story being presented and would not prefer a different one, hence threads all over the forum for one faction or the other.

The Horde and Alliance are BRANDS at this point. Which is why until there's some unifying concept akin to either "muh honor" or "let's murder and skin babies," you are gonna continue to get basically nothing and a Warchief every expac or so. And the bad news is, the former is far more likely than the latter.

On the contrary, neither is a permanent identity precisely because they're brands. The Alliance identity of generic good guys is at least set up, but the Horde cycles endlessly back and forth depending on the needs of the plot. The people glad when Vol'jin got put in charge and muh honor was the name of the game were sad when Sylvanas took over and the people glad Sylvanas took over will be sad when Saurfang or Baine kicks her out. When they inevitably eat the big one to facilitate another faction war, those who liked them will be sad and so on. The Horde is too heterogenuous to have any real identity at this point, which funnily enough at least matches the one real piece of Horde culture that canon offers.

Yeah, your character's appointment being framed by mysterious circumstances immediately followed by extremely slow, methodical, and portentious voicework about death coming for us all, followed by Sylvanas looking over her shoulder while the funeral pyre frames her in shadow all sinister-like is totally portrayed as a good thing.

The triumphant music, the sad faces she makes when she hears Vol'jin's orders, the way she moves in to save Varian and so on. It's pretty clear that she was intended to be a more favourable character initially and they defaulted to more straight up evil because it's easier to write. Standing on a throne of Skulls looking menacing is what the Warchief has done for ages, skulls and spikes are pretty much visual shorthand for Horde.

So let me ask you then - what is it YOU think the Horde, as a faction, is? In a sentence or so. Not "well you have all these ingredients to get whatever you want!," what is the ACTUAL faction about?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blood_Oath_of_the_Horde

[Dagoth Ur]

How does his victory make it an Alliance one? If these idiots think Saurfang will be a good boy, let them. No skin off his back. Nothing tells he didn't want to escape in the first place, what he didn't want to do is go back to Sylvanas's Horde where he would be paraded as an achievement of hers. If Shaw shows him the door and offers him a risk-free scenario, let's do it.

It's basically the Ulfric Stromcloak situation from Skyrim. The elves release him and think him an agent on their payroll, but if you side with the Stromcloaks he ends up doing exactly what he isn't supposed to do, unite Skyrim as a force that can fight them. That's probably where Blizzard got the idea, even. Or it is just that they needed to have Saurfang break out, Sylvanas would never do it, and having him break out by his lonesome would have been a bit ridiculous. Now right after his escape some might have called Ulfric a traitor, but if he ends up throwing off any possible plan his prospective handlers might have, who really cares?

Ulfric parallel is pretty much spot on, but I think Saurfang has a bit of a better case on his hands.

Problem with Ulfric is that he played like a moron right into what Thalmor wanted, where Stormcloaks and Empire weaken each other while Thalmor is happily rubbing their hands and waiting to sweep whoever is left afterwards. I think he was even listed as "uncooperative asset" in their dossiers.

And even though Alliance is not Thalmor, same as it was stupid of Ulfric to start rebellion while Thalmor is out there, it'd be stupid of Saurfang to start rebellion while Horde is on the losing side of conflict and doesn't even know what Alliance's actual goals are. Who's to guarantee war would be over once Sylvanas was deposed? Even if Alliance claims so, you'd have to take them for their word but on the other hand risk losing Forsaken support. If he's gonna do it right, Saurfang has to realize what the risks are, and also prepare for situation where Alliance is ready to exploit on Horde being in position of weakness due to regime change.

Gotta say though, this is probably the first time I'm loving Alliance's side of the story more than the Horde's. Shaw going full on Thalmor is best thing that's happened to them in years.

[Severn]

Not if you lose your allies by doing it.

This goes both ways, however.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, I'd think respect very much helps in winning wars, because it makes the other side more amenable to surrender and occupation. But yes, slaughter works too.

Wars are borne out of hatred and contempt strong enough to warrant mass murder. Even if the design is political necessity, the politician still must make his subjects hate the enemy first.

[Zulkhan]

There are forsaken who could both respect Saurfang enough and don't like Sylvanas that much

One thing is respecting someone and not liking someone else that much and another is literally assaulting and killing your own people. It wasn't some evil, rogue faction of Dark Rangers after all, they were all Deathguards minus Lyana, the most standard Forsaken unit. It's really, really dumb.

They lie to you, yes, but this may well be because they correctly suspect that you would try to intervene because you are apparently very attached to Saurfang despite doing everything Sylvanas wants from you in the very same patch.

Their "correct assumption" comes out of nowhere though. With Garrosh and Vol'jin made sense, because Garrosh grew so paranoid at that point that he only trusted his Kor'kron loyalists and never regarded the player in any positive way, ever. But Sylvanas constantly treated the player as the Horde's best asset and keeps praising the PC at every turn. In at least a couple of occasions, she makes it clear that she especially trust the player about certain matters. We never saw that with Garrosh, at all. Which means that this sudden "distrust" comes almost out of nowhere, even more so when we never particularly dealt with Saurfang; we followed him when he followed Sylvanas, we watched him defying Sylvanas in Lordaeron while we followed Sylvanas in the throne keep and in the Stockades we just left him to rot in prison and just kept doing our business, we were on the same boat of Rokhan and look at that guy, he really enjoys his war.

So really, our sudden attachment to Saurfang, so big that we go far to slaughter the people we happily worked for until...a moment before is truly uncalled. Hilariously so.

He would probably name it Honor of Honor.

"Honor, I hereby Honor you of Honoring your Honor with Honor, Honor."

"I never asked for this".

Clearly Pandaren are the true masterminds behind this situation. It's all because their previous lesson didn't deliver, now they're trying to shoehorn another with all the brewtality necessary.