Saurfang is an SI:7/Alliance asset

[Aucald]

This thing is that most annoying for me, forcing the player to break the blood oath again is ridiculous. If i have not problem is Saurfang wants to get Sylvanas down from The Warchief throne, but doing it The Horde way by Mak'gora. Don't make me do the same stupid thing again when you know players were outraged when they did this with Garrosh

I don't think the Champion is subject to the Blood Oath, really - I don't recall ever giving it to Thrall, Garrosh, Vol'jin, or Sylvanas. The Blood Oath is only really ever leveraged the once, in inducting the Taunka into the Horde. It may not be a common instrument of Horde diplomacy, or it may be unique to Overlord Agmar's particular methods of outreach.

[Naked Snake]

To me Saurfang is just doing what makes the most sense. It's actually a shame not more characters in the Horde are openly defying Sylvanas. To me she's way worse than Garrosh.

I mean even Garrosh had a line he wouldn't cross, and what Sylvanas was doing was crossing the line even for him, so that should tell you something.

When it comes to raising the dead, everyone except the undead seem to have problems with it. Maybe the problem are just the undead.

[Mehrunes]

What? Tyrande and the Night Elves going completely rogue and against Anduin's wishes and pulling their forces back from the Zuldazar war effort to take back Darkshore. And then Genn pledging, and then doing, the same thing immediately after.

I thought the symbolism was pretty obvious there. Unity vs Inner-conflict. In this moment, the two swap. The Horde coalesce around supporting one another after Rastakhan dies. Rokhan, Baine, and even Sylvanas (Completely uncharacteristically) agree to continue to support the Zandalari while the Alliance sees two of their factions abandon their war effort on the eve of its most important battle of the war to take back Darkshore.

"Let's conveniently ignore the entire event this topic is about. Or Baine protesting against Sylvanas raising Jaina's brother. I'm sure no one will notice."

Also, given how Darkshore becomes a Warfront afterwards, it'll get the support from the rest of Alliance anyway.

And they lose (at least for now) Mekkatorque, the arguable smartest leader on either faction, and Jaina is seriously injured. That's not me saying the Alliance isn't winning in 8.1 btw, dont @Me with that. But just that its likely if the Gilneans and Night Elves were also there, the attack would have been even more effective.

Whereas before the Alliance has been fully united and the Horde fraying with Sylvanas' warmongering.

And what has Mekkatorque's arguably highest intellect actually resulted in for his people? Other than killing 80% of them and irradiating a fair share of the rest. And oh noes, Jaina is wounded after a campaign in which Alliance steamrolled Zandalar. What a cost. Oh, wait, given Golden writing her, she's likely to get magical bones out of it.

No, I actually don't have to prove that Saurfang is NOT providing intel to the Alliance. You (or others) have to prove that he IS.

Because nothing in any of the dialogue in 8.1 or anything Saurfang has done in the game, and everything about his character from its inception, suggests the likelihood of him doing this is nil.

Right. Saurfang would have never go against core values of his people. Not at all. Ever.

Hilarious the Lich Queen's new scourge is calling a hero of the Horde a traitor.

Given how Saurfang disobeyed orders and then turned his back on the Horde, he's literally a traitor. So I'm not really seeing the humor in calling spade a spade.

People are acting like this is the first time the Alliance has tried this. Already in BfA, in 8.0, they tried to befriend the Blood Trolls because they were enemies of the Zandalari. Didn't exactly work but in 8.1 after G'huun is gone and they're basically just a savage nuisance, they again arm them and send them against the Horde forces.

You just compared Saurfang to goddamn Blood Trolls. Yet another amazing argument.

The Alliance and Saurfang both have their own separate agendas and seeing people pretend that Saurfang is somehow following the Alliance's or acting under their orders is just laughably stupid. Saurfang wants the Horde to regain its honor, he doesn't want the Alliance to roll over it and annihilate it. Currently the easiest way to do that seems to be to gather supporters who think as he does and try to check Sylvanas.

Except in this case their agendas overlap. Which you yourself argued in his favor, multiple times by now. Which is why Alliance would have released him in the first place. Which you yourself also pointed out. Why are you not reading your own posts?

THe end boss will probably be a Council Fight against Moorguard and Christie Golden

Oooooh, I get it. A clever way to pad the story and the expansion count. Obviously the only way to win this fight would be the Godzilla solution of releasing Sargeras to kill them for us, so Blizzard could make us fight the Legion some more.

I'm pretty sure doing this on a forsaken or blood elf character, hell any race of character would give me a nosebleed. From the ingame view, we have every reason to doubt Saurfang and you blindly kill the people trying to bring him in.


It's literally the Vol'jin quest with no build up, no motivation, if anything the opposite motivation.

Wait, Vol'jin quest had build up or motivation? He was a traitor since 4.0, even Baine effectively argued that Garrosh was within his rights to kill him.

Also, what with the saga thing? Out of loop right now.

"I never asked for this".

Just puked in my mouth a bit. Can't all the lulzworthy Pandaren characters (so, like 99.999999% of the race) be buried beneath Pandaria, like Sha used to be?

[Trassk]

Given how the player is forced to join Saurfang, lorewise we're a suspect element likely to follow subvertive traitors.

don't give me that crap. As the player we were also forced to follow along everything ordered to us by sylvanas and nathanos, but you didn't think people mind not be happy about that then did you?

[looorg]

He might be an asset, even tho that doesn't seem all the likely. It's not like he loves the boyking or anything like that. In that case it would be far more likely that is what would be classified as a "useful idiot" to the alliance cause. He doesn't know he is working for them but by his actions against the banshee queen he is also helping the alliance cause. So having him "escape" Shaw and company is nudging him in the direction they want him to go.
If we wanna be all spy vs spy about it then Saurfang could also still be a horde asset, and this whole business about letting himself be captured is just a ruse and he is still working on his and Sylvanas masterplan to f*ck over the Alliance once and for all. The cake could be a lie or have so many layers we don't even know them all yet ...

[Friendlyimmolation]

Wait, Vol'jin quest had build up or motivation? He was a traitor since 4.0, even Baine effectively argued that Garrosh was within his rights to kill him.

Also, what with the saga thing? Out of loop right now.

Blizzard showed Garrosh as starting to trust only his advisors/ not talking to the Horde player.

Sylvanas holds the player character close, treats them like the valuable asset we are. She's done nothing to warrant us murdering her dark ranger and forces

It's like the assassination plot, but somehow worse because this time there is no reason, not even a forced reason on why we would help, for all we know with our in-game knowledge, Saurfang is a traitor, evidence in game does not help his cause.

Blizzard basically said "You just don't like the story yet because you haven't seen the whole epic saga yet" or whatever.

- - - Updated - - -

don't give me that crap. As the player we were also forced to follow along everything ordered to us by sylvanas and nathanos, but you didn't think people mind not be happy about that then did you?

I agree choice should be a thing, even if it's the illusion of choice. You should be able to disagree with Sylvanas and so she sends Nathanos/ Belmont with you to do the dirty parts of the job while you just be your morally pure self, on the flip side the dark ranger and her men didn't deserve to die nor should players be forced to kill them just because Zappy meme feels sentiment. Have Saurfang knock your character out and then kill the dark rangers if you side with Sylvanas. That way the story isn't as utter shit as it currently is.

[Super Dickmann]

It isn't the size of the group that is an issue in my view, it's the fact that Dark Ranger Lyana lies to the Horde Champion about "returning to Orgrimmar" for further orders while ordering the Champion not to do anything else until she returns to update them. Presumably Lyana does this on order of Sylvanas, which gives rise to the suspicion that this is because Sylvanas doesn't want the Champion around for Saurfang's arrest. The likeliest reason for that is because she has no intention to bring Saurfang in and actually plans on killing him using Lyana and the Deathguard regiment. She can then say she attempted to arrest Saurfang and was forced to kill him in the process without witnesses.

This whole argument is predicated on her knowing we'd defy orders to go intervene or alternatively, that she cares about appearances when the event takes place in a swamp with no witnesses. Who was she putting on a performance for in this version? She doesn't know you're there and it's not like they give two shits if Zappy knows, since they can throw him in the same ditch as Saurfang provided their aim was to kill. In fact, if she were out to kill him she wouldn't have bothered with this routine at all but torched the house and then made Saurfang's body disappear. There are no witnesses and it can be covertly brought to Orgrimmar where if they want to question him that badly a Val'kyr can bring him back. Then after he's said what Sylvanas may suspect he's told the Alliance it can be disposed of. There's no element in this entire procedure contingent on taking Saurfang alive unless they really did want to bring him publicly to Orgrimmar.

Your entire second point is contingent on someone finding the body considering they can easily dispose of the remains, then identifying it as Saurfang and then deciding it was Sylvanas who did it instead of the Alliance secret service. If Sylvanas wanted to kill him she could easily make it look as if SI:7 did it and lie to the Horde. Or you know, not lie to the Horde and just not mention it since the only reason anyone knows Saurfang escaped is because she tells you, someone she trusts implicitly.

But suppose that Memeboi is right and they really do want to disappear Saurfang and they're just putting on a performance for the benefit of the shrubbery and crocodiles of the region. So? What of it? Let's go over Saurfang's recent conduct with the Horde, shall we?

1. He engineers the whole of the Horde invasion of Kalimdor, agreeing with starting a war of aggression despite muh honor. He does this job up until he's ordered to kill Malfurion, which he disobeys because killing a wounded enemy is bad but hiring hundreds of assassins isn't. Strike One against him, he's already in violation of the Oath.

2. He has to be talked out of suicide by Zappy and then deserts after taking issue, not with Sylvanas deploying the Blight on her own I remind you, but over her turning an evacuated city into a death trap for the Alliance. At this point, he's left the Horde. He is however, unlike everyone else in the Horde present there, taken alive as a captive by Anduin. Strike Two.

3. When the Horde later tries to spring him out of prison, he refuses, cementing his decision to desert and de facto renouncing his allegiance to the Horde in favor of staying in Alliance custody. He's out already.

4. Later on, for seemingly no reason he changes his mind and leaves. The agents sent after him find out that his escape was facilitated by the Alliance secret service, with Saurfang's knowledge or otherwise, so he can subvert the Horde. When the rangers and the PC corner him, he doesn't explain himself at all on these points and refuses arrest.

Sylvanas is fully in the right to have him killed at this point, since he's either switched sides voluntarily or is an unwitting tool of the Alliance on top of going AWOL in the middle of a fight and declining rescue. As @Mehrunes pointed out, even Baine, the king of pansies, argued that Garrosh's order to kill Vol'jin was valid and we can say many things about Vol'jin, but he neither left the Horde nor conspired with the Alliance at the time of the attempt on his life. Saurfang did both. Even giving him a chance to explain himself for show is already more than was granted to a much less damning case by a Warchief who had done considerably more to warrant reprisal from their own faction. And Vol'jin had an actual constituency. Nobody we see except Baine gives a flying fuck about him in-game, since they happily prosecuted the war without him and his own army ignored his orders to stop in favour of torching the tree and commit genocide on Sylvanas' behalf.

And what about the PC? The PC has been working for Sylvanas this entire time without complaint. We have no idea who the fuck Memeboi is and we have no opportunity to ask Saurfang about the allegations against him or why he changed his mind on running off. Nor, for that matter, does it make any sense for Sylvanas to have enough trust in us to send us on this mission before all of this damning evidence is revealed, yet not enough trust to believe we'd side with her over Saurfang after it's presented.

[Maljinwo]

Wait, Vol'jin quest had build up or motivation? He was a traitor since 4.0, even Baine effectively argued that Garrosh was within his rights to kill him.

While I know your opinion on Vol'jin (and don't worry, im not trying to change it), he had at least a book where he voiced his displeasure with Garrosh, the troll intro quests, most of Pandaria and even a book to justify his views and actions.

Saurfang, on the other hand, had like... 2 scenarios. And the whole War of Thorns was planned by him, despite the end result.
I mean, I'll take any chance I can get to get rid of Sylvanas. But there's no denying that the writing in this expansion is just... bad. They probably spent all their budget on Bwonsamdi or something

[Powerogue]

No, I can't see Golden's oh so pure husbando even thinking of something "underhanded and manipulative". Shaw, on the other had, seems to have no difficulties with the pragmatism that mysteriously is no longer being praised here.

I'm saying if it was Shaw, it was probably attempting to manipulate and weaken the horde indirectly. If it was Anduin ordering Shaw, it was probably because he saw too much good in Saurfang and his bleeding heart insisted that maybe the horde would see the light if Saurfang could talk some sense into them (which would be pretty naive considering Saurfang willingly participated and helped plan the entire Darkshore invasion).

[Mehrunes]

As I said previously, I would've preferred the Horde player be given some agency in this quest - perhaps an option to speak to either Saurfang or Lyana, and aid one or the other depending. You could have the events play out roughly the same way, too; but it would permit Horde players loyal to the Warchief to be so, and those loyal to Saurfang to make their choice.

Well, we don't, player preference be damned. Obviously a company as allergic to effort as Blizzard would rather set explosives in its HQ to escape the misery of even being faced with the prospect rather than provide branching quest options in an RPG. So whether players like it or not, we're suspicious elements lorewise (regardless of the fact how we cheerfully aided Nathanos in Honorbound storyline, because even in face of lack of player choice Blizzard can't even make our not-choices consistent because that'd also take effort). As such it only makes sense for Sylvanas to keep us in the dark about some issues. It's not like she reveals everything to the likes of Baine either.

The circumstances of the assassination would become known either way, in time. Horde spies in Stormwind would report that Saurfang had escaped the Stockades and that he was now missing or MIA, which would give rise to cries of "foul" over time if he never reappeared (which would be deeply unlike Saurfang). If his body were found, many questions would be asked pretty much immediately. If the the Alliance tried to apprehend him it would be hard to hide the corpses he'd make in the process. Saurfang is a legendary character as well as a proverbial force of nature - there's no way I can think of to end him that doesn't produce highly visible and forceful waves. Doubly so since we know that SI:7 let him out (for reasons so far unknown).

Sylvanas let the Alliance spies be before War of Thornes for a reason, just like Alliance let Horde spies be for their reasons. Those reasons were rendered moot once the war erupted. So while the Alliance probably still has some spies left, they are doubtfully to have the same influence they had shortly before the war. And even then, what is going to be the louder voice? That of Sylvanas, or that of some random spies, who are going to get targeted the moment they spread their story?

And how long would it take for someone to find his body when it'd take forever for the Horde to learn that he died for sure? No Alliance corpses? They found them and buried them as is their custom. Their later assurances to the contrary would be not very believable for why would they make an exception for people killed by someone who was their prisoner? Or the corpses were eaten by wildlife. Or perhaps Saurfang eluded the Alliance after all and merely choked to death on his muh honor.

Or the body is never found because Sylvanas isn't an idiot and she orders his body to be put in a Blight tank, Breaking Bad style. Then the likely fate of Saurfang left to Horde's imagination is that he charged a dragon or whatever seeking his beloved death and it's his body that was eaten. What are the people doubting Sylvanas going to do then? Issue poo-searching quests for remains of Saurfang? Which would only vindicate their suspicions if they actually don't find digested pieces of Saurfang. Except that can be excused with the dragon flying away to wherever.

Saurfang's actions at the conclusion of the War of Thorns are pretty hotly debated (even here), I imagine it is very much so in the rank and file of the Horde as well. A leader executing a storied general for refusing an order on moral grounds is a pretty bad look for Sylvanas - I won't say she's wrong to do so, but killing Saurfang now for an act of treason or treachery that is itself questionable to the people to the Horde has all the makings of promoting Saurfang as a martyr. I don't think the case against Saurfang is quite so open and shut, myself; though I agree his actions in the War of Thorns are profoundly insubordinate if not treasonous from Sylvanas' perspective. You would need a trial to ascertain the scope of Saurfang's guilt and possible punishment - and a trial of Saurfang is probably another outcome Sylvanas is keen to avoid (as it would require her to explain and expound her own actions in the War of Thorns).

What moral grounds? Saurfang refused it on the grounds of his muh honor. Which is not moral grounds. It's not any ground. It's smokescreen, ever changing and ever shifting as needs be, that Saurfang mostly uses to justify his death craving.

And why would the ranks of the Horde reflect the forum here? The Horde is much less developed as a society when it comes to rules of war than we are. Saurfang is consistently painted as an outlier so far. The rest of the Horde takes part in burning of Teldrassil or Brennadam without a squeak. The first voice of dissent other than Saurfang's so far is Baine's protest against resurrecting a human (because he somehow hasn't spotted yet that this was what the Horde was doing in the entire Honorbound campaign and what the Forsaken have been doing since 4.0; probably too busy thinking how Garrosh "betrayed his father").

Given how you just argued that his body would be found if assassinated and raise questions and dissent in the Horde, then Sylvanas would be faced with dissent regardless of how exactly she handled Saurfang. But unless she was to leave him be entirely, then what is going to cause less dissent? Kill him like an Alliance pig or some other Baine in the middle of nowhere with no trial, only for the Horde to find out anyway, or to officially prosecute him and sentence him for treason proved by Horde court?

I'd say it's the latter. And the latter is also less likely to result in Saurfang becoming a martyr because his proponents would be faced with much more opposition from those agreeing with how he was handled, as there's going to be more of those if Saurfang is dealt with by the full extent of the law rather than cloak and dagger methods.

And what of Sylvanas' actions in the War of Thorns? The Burning of Teldrassil? That the Horde at large, even Alliance lovers like Baine, ignored even with no explanation given to them? Even Saurfang internally agreed with what Sylvanas told him once she explained her reasoning for the burning of the tree and his own shortcomings there. He spazzed out anyway only because his muh honor told him to do so. The Horde is not going to even blink twice there. And that is only going to damn Saurfang even more.

Especially since with how full of herself Sylvanas is, there was very little for her to leave the killing of Malfurion of Saurfang in the first place. She could pride herself to be the one that killed someone as mighty as Malfurion for an eternity. But she didn't. It's probable she intended it as a test for Saurfang from the get go, hoping he'll prove fully worthy of her trust after he managed to come up with the strategy for War of Thorns for her, which he then failed because of the voices in his head.

She could denounce him - she already has, really. But not everyone in the Horde sees Saurfang in the same way you do, or Sylvanas does - he has a lot of support still. Sylvanas' actions in both Darkshore and Lordaeron are the basis of a lot of questions about the quality of her leadership.

Given the obviousness of his treason those that don't see him as traitor are traitors themselves. Or at least Alliance lovers. As such, they are next either on the chopping block with Saurfang or the list of people devoid of influence with Baine. And where are those questions? Did Baine develop a multiple personality and is debating Sylvanas' merits with himself in 8.1? Because if so, I missed it. Other than that I'm not seeing anyone in the Horde actually asking questions about her leadership.

And neither of those things are open and shut occurrences, either. Saurfang's refusal at Lordaeron is a result of Sylvanas' own questionable tactics with the Blight, and his decision not to leave the Stockades initially is explained by the man himself - he doesn't believe in Sylvanas' leadership anymore, and feels she doesn't represent the Horde. Technically treason, sure, but also not an uncommon sentiment among the Horde, either.

He was questioning orders, creating a distraction in a situation that demanded none, while offering no alternatives of his own, even before that. And him not believing in Sylvanas' leadership is only more kindling for his stake. He doesn't get to say "not my Warchief". The Blood Oath isn't sworn to "my ideal vision of the Horde". It's sworn to the Warchief. And that is who it primarily binds the Horde members to. There's more obligation towards the Warchief specifically in it than there's obligation to the Horde in a wider meaning. And the Horde has Mak'gora for things like that, not safe space in Alliance prison to brood in.

Speaking of Baine, I'm not sure if you missed it because of edit (though I'm not sure if it was), but the point about him still stands. Baine's own argumentation against Vol'jin, that was then accepted by Vol'jin, can be used against Saurfang. It'd fit perfectly. Which means Sylvanas would have authority of Horde's previous Warchief backing her against Saurfang, as well that of Baine (not that he has any authority being Blanduin's boy toy).

She doesn't even have to ask Baine to testify in this specific case and risk him suddenly developing a spine after all those years by exposing his hypocrisy to the world in an effort to save Saurfang. She can just invoke the other trial and claim precedent. What's Saurfang going to do then? Denounce Baine's argumentation and throw him under the bus? Would his muh honor even allow him to do so?

I mean, it allowed him to get captured and imprisoned by the Alliance with no resistance, which made the corpses of his ancestors roll in their graves while their spirits committed seppuku in Orcish Valhalla, so you never know with him and his inconsistency, but I'd be leaning towards no.

I don't think the Champion is subject to the Blood Oath, really - I don't recall ever giving it to Thrall, Garrosh, Vol'jin, or Sylvanas. The Blood Oath is only really ever leveraged the once, in inducting the Taunka into the Horde. It may not be a common instrument of Horde diplomacy, or it may be unique to Overlord Agmar's particular methods of outreach.

It's the most fundamental law of the Horde. I.e. pretty much their constitution. Why would anyone be exempt from the most fundamental law of the organization they are members of? Besides, players and racial leaders of the Horde pledge themselves to Sylvanas at Vol'jin's BBQ.

[Maljinwo]

It's the most fundamental law of the Horde. I.e. pretty much their constitution. Why would anyone be exempt from the most fundamental law of the organization they are members of? Besides, players and racial leaders of the Horde pledge themselves to Sylvanas at Vol'jin's BBQ.

To be fair, I was in a party while doing the Broken Shore thingie, and only the party leader pledged himself. That's probably the only illusion of choice the game has given me

[Mehrunes]

don't give me that crap. As the player we were also forced to follow along everything ordered to us by sylvanas and nathanos, but you didn't think people mind not be happy about that then did you?

People not being about happy or not with what their quest choices is utterly irrelevant to what our characters (i.e. not the players themselves) are from lore perspective.

[GetCrunk]

don't give me that crap. As the player we were also forced to follow along everything ordered to us by sylvanas and nathanos, but you didn't think people mind not be happy about that then did you?

Is not the same thing, if you play Horde you know: The Warchief of the Horde stands as the undisputed leader his/her word is absolute, The Warchief holds dominion over the entire Horde. The Warchief maintains the Horde, is able to declare war for the entire Horde.
You follow The Warchief command anything else is treason.
Everyone here talks about the true way of The Horde and the honor but 90% know shit about The Horde honor and to follow The Warchief or the honor of The Horde

I don't think the Champion is subject to the Blood Oath, really - I don't recall ever giving it to Thrall, Garrosh, Vol'jin, or Sylvanas. The Blood Oath is only really ever leveraged the once, in inducting the Taunka into the Horde. It may not be a common instrument of Horde diplomacy, or it may be unique to Overlord Agmar's particular methods of outreach.

All members of the Horde have to swear a blood oath to join the Horde and are thus obligated to follow the warchief's commands and support the warchief in times of war if the warchief calls upon them for aid.
And this is the moment when you Swear the blood oath with Vol'jin and betray Garrosh

Vol'jin says: Swear da blood oath wit me.
Click on Vol'jin.
Vol'jin holds his hand out to you.
Gossip Swear the blood oath with Vol'jin

[Leodric]

If you play the new Saurfang questline it's evident that he was a allowed to escape. So what does everyone think? Now it's a bit more clear why Anduin did not press their advantage.

Oh someone even took pictures as well.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...42/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...58/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...52/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...44/unknown.png

It would make sense that the Alliance is setting it up, but I can't imagine Saurfang betraying the Horde for the Alliance. He could try to assasinate or overthrow Sylvanas which would be the best for the Horde obviously. Another SoO would be just too cheap, even for Blizzard. We will most likely see a cutscene of Saurfang sacrificing himself while defending the Horde.

Reading through some pages it's refreshing to see the mental gymnastics some people pull against Horde characters. I always thought it had to do something with a huge Horde bias (seeing it against Alliance characters most of the time), but as it seems it's just for the defence of sylvanas and her scourge 2.0, luls.

[Trumpcat]

He's not a puppet, his agenda and intentions are his own. They happen to also benefit the entire world, so the Alliance, as usual, does the greater good and enables him to carry that agenda, they do not control him.

But do not be worried, Sylvanas fanbois, that will be just another small pinch against her plot armor. She'll be fine.

[Leodric]

Is not the same thing, if you play Horde you know: The Warchief of the Horde stands as the undisputed leader his/her word is absolute, The Warchief holds dominion over the entire Horde. The Warchief maintains the Horde, is able to declare war for the entire Horde.
You follow The Warchief command anything else is treason.
Everyone here talks about the true way of The Horde and the honor but 90% know shit about The Horde honor and to follow The Warchief or the honor of The Horde




All members of the Horde have to swear a blood oath to join the Horde and are thus obligated to follow the warchief's commands and support the warchief in times of war if the warchief calls upon them for aid.
And this is the moment when you Swear the blood oath with Vol'jin and betray Garrosh

meh, the blood oath is being used when suited most, as we've seen on the broken shore while the Horde was running away and leaving the Alliance behind.

[GetCrunk]

meh, the blood oath is being used when suited most, as we've seen on the broken shore while the Horde was running away and leaving the Alliance behind.

Blood oath has nothing to do with what happen on broken shore
Horde have to swear a blood oath to join the faction and are thus obligated to follow the warchief's commands and support the warchief in war if the warchief calls upon them for aid.

[Friendlyimmolation]

meh, the blood oath is being used when suited most, as we've seen on the broken shore while the Horde was running away and leaving the Alliance behind.

The warchief commanded them to retreat.... so what exactly are you trying to talk about here?

[Mehrunes]

Blizzard showed Garrosh as starting to trust only his advisors/ not talking to the Horde player.

Sylvanas holds the player character close, treats them like the valuable asset we are. She's done nothing to warrant us murdering her dark ranger and forces

It's like the assassination plot, but somehow worse because this time there is no reason, not even a forced reason on why we would help, for all we know with our in-game knowledge, Saurfang is a traitor, evidence in game does not help his cause.

We only became a Horde general in WoD though. Super duper omega general extraordinaire even later than that. It's not like we were a major player back then that deserved to be in Garrosh's inner circle. And Vol'jin was literally a traitor to the Horde since before 4.0, as later argued even by the prime Alliance sympathizer of the Horde.

I'm not saying this situation is equal. I'm saying the Horde player already had no reason to side even with Vol'jin back then (at least before all the Old God crap, but that only happened afterwards). It's just in this case we have a negative amount of reasons.

Blizzard basically said "You just don't like the story yet because you haven't seen the whole epic saga yet" or whatever.

Ah, I see. In that case, lul.

While I know your opinion on Vol'jin (and don't worry, im not trying to change it), he had at least a book where he voiced his displeasure with Garrosh, the troll intro quests, most of Pandaria and even a book to justify his views and actions.

I'm not disputing that. But the way I understood Friendly's post was that there was some motivation for players to join Vol'jin over Garrosh (as opposed to there being no motivation to follow Saurfang over Sylvanas), not that Vol'jin himself had motivation. The same applies to my reply.

Obviously, Vol'jin himself had plenty of motivation. Starting from the Troll intro quest onward those motivation revolved around him being a traitor though, as such it gave the players little motivation to side with him over the Warchief of the Horde (at least specifically with him).

Saurfang, on the other hand, had like... 2 scenarios. And the whole War of Thorns was planned by him, despite the end result.
I mean, I'll take any chance I can get to get rid of Sylvanas. But there's no denying that the writing in this expansion is just... bad. They probably spent all their budget on Bwonsamdi or something

As much as I enjoy Bwonsamdi, he's Ryuk from Death Note with Caribbean coat of paint, so not exactly a major writing achievement all things considered. Especially given his secondary role and limited presence. So that must have been a very small budget. Which actually explains even more things than what you said.

The warchief commanded them to retreat.... so what exactly are you trying to talk about here?

Probably their usual shtick on how Lok'tar Ogar means the Horde is suicidal and never retreats. Even though even Orgrim and Garrosh, the most Lok'tar Orcs to ever Ogar retreated when it was necessary. And has little relevance to the part of the Blood Oath that's actually relevant here, i.e. the pledge to the Warchief.

[Maljinwo]

Obviously, Vol'jin himself had plenty of motivation. Starting from the Troll intro quest onward those motivation revolved around him being a traitor though, as such it gave the players little motivation to side with him over the Warchief of the Horde (at least specifically with him).

I guess Blizz just went with the "well, someone's already rebelling so whatever, join him".
It was either him or Lor'themar at that point I guess.

Sylvanas was busy doing... Sylvanas stuff and of course Baine wouldn't do anything.