Blizzcon 2005 Raid Design - i knew i wasnt crazy

[slalmon]

What's the weather like in the world where World of WarCraft had a great reputation? People that played other MMO's thought it was casual shit, people that played it complained about it constantly, and people that didn't play it thought it was addictive no-lifer shit.

Doing any kind of organized content in this game, whether it was heroic dungeons in BC or it was raids or if it was even something as faceroll as heroic scenarios in MoP put you squarely in the minority. People didn't aspire to be raiders, they wanted the raid gear but they didn't want a second job. Nothing Blizzard ever did up to the introduction of LFR ever had any degree of success at getting asses into seats for raids. Thanks for the insults by the way, had a great laugh at those.

It is weird to see how people talk about Vanilla WoW and seem to have forgotten (if they played) just how tedious it could be and the large barriers to entry for end game activities (i.e. Raiding). I mean I remember it because it was like the second MMO I ever played in a serious way. I put soooo many hours into, but the thing is the vast majority of those hours I don't think really were much fun in hindsight.

1. Waiting, soooo much waiting around, was unreal, people just have no idea how much standing around waiting with your thumb in your ass you did. And don't try to tell me I was in a shit guild or something, you waiting for everything it was why shit took so long lol. I mean people go on about how long it took to level (world first was 10 days btw lol) but a lot of that was tedious running and more waiting.

2. Raiding.... gah. MC was so boring after you had done it 20 times, soooo boring. BWL was tedious at best, AQ (this is where my raiding ended in Vanilla) was just a shit place in general, just terrible. (Let us not forget the total lameness of ZG and AQ20... shudder, wiping for hours on shit tuned bosses to get some crappy blue.. fun times lol). I find it super funny a lot of people in the thread keep arguing about raiding in Vanilla, it was pretty terrible.

3. Lack of things to do, there was very little to do at level cap if you didn't raid. PvP was a uber chore and not really worth messing with until BC. Dungeons was a about it but you had what 4 or 5 max level dungeons to do? Two of them being 10 man (originally 15)!

I dunno there are so many negatives I just can't see going back being much fun in the long run. Sure I will try it just cuz why the hell not and maybe I will be wrong. Maybe it will be super fun, more fun that I could imagine but I doubt it. Going back to play old ass MMOs always ends in quickly becoming bored and those private WoW servers are a joke.

I do think folks need to remember that this is very likely a marketing thing mostly (and probably nostalgia from the dev team as well) for the huge, huge WoW 15 year anniversary that is next year.

I mean we just don't have many examples of a game with WoWs lifespan, it has evolved and expanded and morphed so much over the last 14 years, it is amazing to me it is still around (I am amazed I still play it!). So Blizzard has something to be proud of with WoW and I can see why they would want to celebrate with Classic, but make no mistake that is what it is, a present from the past, not the future for WoW.

[Armourboy]

Uh you have to do that on any difficulty lol. Whats your point? You aren't killing any boss just once, no matter if its heroic or mythic. Not unless you are method or those type of guilds.

My point is killing a boss on a harder mode that may have extra mechanics is a hell of a lot closer to being different content than killing the same boss on the same difficulty for months on end.

[ryanmahaffe]

Sort of sick of mythic tbh. But at the rate Blizzards going they'll announce legendary raids soon for 4 difficulties >.< That's their answer to everything not more content, the same content with more % across the board

I actually wouldn't mind a new type of content with a (Legendary) difficulty that was either for solo players or flex groups that had 1 boss extreme challenges.

[oplawlz]

Technically if you aren't clearing mythic level raids there is unbeaten content for you. The difference? One it's 15 years later and no one gives a damn, and two, Transmog has pretty much destroyed any coolness factor there was from getting Tier sets.

The difference is that one version of the game was actually offering cool new content you hadn't seen before, and the other is giving you a slightly different overtuned version of the same boss you killed while afk watching porn.

[Barnabas]

I've been called an an awful person for having my "exclusive" opinions about the game.
But Plot twist
Blizzard actually believed in this stuff in 2005 Blizzcon panel of Raid Design.

"Players need something to aspire to: When you see someone in raid gear you think that person is cool (maybe motivate you to raid)"

"The world feels bigger for everyone if there is unbeaten content out there"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falm0H7VEiQ&t=0m55s

What do you guys think about this?
The guy was completely wrong on his ideals and philosophy behind the game?

I want to play Classic WoW so much because i believe in this oldschool ideals.
I hope all of us have a great time in Classic WoW

I want to beat a m+ 20 key so rn there is unbeatable content for everyone to aspire to on live. Eventually the classic servers will turn into speed runs so it won't be much different than live rn.

[NihilSustinet]

I've been called an an awful person for having my "exclusive" opinions about the game.
But Plot twist
Blizzard actually believed in this stuff in 2005 Blizzcon panel of Raid Design.

"Players need something to aspire to: When you see someone in raid gear you think that person is cool (maybe motivate you to raid)"

"The world feels bigger for everyone if there is unbeaten content out there"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falm0H7VEiQ&t=0m55s

What do you guys think about this?
The guy was completely wrong on his ideals and philosophy behind the game?

I want to play Classic WoW so much because i believe in this oldschool ideals.
I hope all of us have a great time in Classic WoW

ive been saying this for years. giving gear to casuals was the worst idea blizzard ever had. when wow was at its best there were unattainable goals for most people. and no, the same armor at a slightly higher ilevel, with a slightly different color from the same boss youve already killed, but harder doesnt count.

[Armourboy]

The difference is that one version of the game was actually offering cool new content you hadn't seen before, and the other is giving you a slightly different overtuned version of the same boss you killed while afk watching porn.

Last I looked Live still drops just about as many raid as Vanilla did for most expansions. Lets not fool ourselves, raiding hasn't changed much over the years, with a separate difficulty or just one you spend the bulk of your time killing the same thing over and over again. I really enjoy Vanilla, but lets not act like it was some super unique content or anything. Stuff stayed unbeaten for most people due to time constraints, lack of care to do it, or they more or less got a late start. Even I managed to get in AQ40 runs and my guild didn't do anything outside of ZG and Ony here and there.

[Deleted]

I want to beat a m+ 20 key so rn there is unbeatable content for everyone to aspire to on live. Eventually the classic servers will turn into speed runs so it won't be much different than live rn.

I dont know, it depends on the person
Do you think its epic being the first one to clear a m+20 compared to being the first of the server beating a boss on a raid that almost no one on the server even saw?
And on top f that you are rewarded with tier sets no one will ever get instead of some random titanforged item that no one cares about because of transmog?

Its 2 different things and IMO the most epic one is the raid no one ever saw and get rewarded with items everyone will see because of no tmog.

[oplawlz]

Last I looked Live still drops just about as many raid as Vanilla did for most expansions. Lets not fool ourselves, raiding hasn't changed much over the years, with a separate difficulty or just one you spend the bulk of your time killing the same thing over and over again. I really enjoy Vanilla, but lets not act like it was some super unique content or anything. Stuff stayed unbeaten for most people due to time constraints, lack of care to do it, or they more or less got a late start. Even I managed to get in AQ40 runs and my guild didn't do anything outside of ZG and Ony here and there.

Sure, there were lots of reasons that people didn't raid, but at the end of the day it still falls in line with the philosophy. Having prestigious content in the game that people haven't done, but know they could do is a good thing. Harder bosses simply don't have that same psychological effect.

[Armourboy]

Sure, there were lots of reasons that people didn't raid, but at the end of the day it still falls in line with the philosophy. Having prestigious content in the game that people haven't done, but know they could do is a good thing. Harder bosses simply don't have that same psychological effect.

See I think that has less to do with the mechanics of it all and more to do with the fact that people just really don't care as much anymore. Transmog went a long way to removing the status you gained from it, and most people just don't want to put that kind of time into a game anymore. There is a reason easier raiding content has always generally been more used, it's quick and most people don't mind messing with it.

I'd argue less people would raid today than did in Vanilla if everything was still the same on the raiding front.

[oplawlz]

See I think that has less to do with the mechanics of it all and more to do with the fact that people just really don't care as much anymore. Transmog went a long way to removing the status you gained from it, and most people just don't want to put that kind of time into a game anymore. There is a reason easier raiding content has always generally been more used, it's quick and most people don't mind messing with it.

I'd argue less people would raid today than did in Vanilla if everything was still the same on the raiding front.

Oh, I agree - you can't put that genie back in the bottle for modern gaming.

It's a chicken and egg thing though. Wow has been the market leader of mmos for a very long time - they set the trends that caused people to expect easy raid content. Whether it was a good change is an argument for the ages.

[Armourboy]

Oh, I agree - you can't put that genie back in the bottle for modern gaming.

It's a chicken and egg thing though. Wow has been the market leader of mmos for a very long time - they set the trends that caused people to expect easy raid content. Whether it was a good change is an argument for the ages.

Well while I do think they went overboard and frankly lost a bit of something with the attunements ( although I thought the kill 2 bosses to unlock the next was just a poor way of doing it ), getting more people in raiding did give them the reasoning to continue to spend the time and money that they do on them. I think had they stuck with the Vanilla model raiding probably would have all but been extinct by now. Things like TBC heroic and Mythic+ probably would have been where they spent the bulk of their time and efforts I think.

[KainneAbsolute]

I still have unbeaten content and others players still look cooler than me.

[oplawlz]

Well while I do think they went overboard and frankly lost a bit of something with the attunements ( although I thought the kill 2 bosses to unlock the next was just a poor way of doing it ), getting more people in raiding did give them the reasoning to continue to spend the time and money that they do on them. I think had they stuck with the Vanilla model raiding probably would have all but been extinct by now. Things like TBC heroic and Mythic+ probably would have been where they spent the bulk of their time and efforts I think.

See that's where I disagree. The value of having that untapped content is far greater than the value of those extra players doing it for a few weeks then burning out till the next raid hits. The trick wasn't getting more people in - it was making sure that the barriers to entry felt attainable. Things like MC or onyxia attunement were perfect.

[Armourboy]

See that's where I disagree. The value of having that untapped content is far greater than the value of those extra players doing it for a few weeks then burning out till the next raid hits. The trick wasn't getting more people in - it was making sure that the barriers to entry felt attainable. Things like MC or onyxia attunement were perfect.

I had no real issue with those attunements, the ones I didn't care for were the ones where you had to kill certain raid bosses to open a later raid. It wasn't something you could work on and enjoy in smaller guild groups and such, it took a full on raid group which always took most of the enjoyment I had out of it.

[bigbleach]

Maybe not but in Vanilla you are going to be killing them multiple times anyways if you want any chance at gear. I mean which is more enjoyable, killing the same guy again on a harder mode, or killing him again for the 4th month because your Tier won't drop?

Or when it finally drops and your 3rd in line to get that piece after months of killing a boss lololol. All these people thinking raiding in classic was worth a damn are delusional lol. 3 pieces of loot to split between 40 people lolololol.

[oplawlz]

I had no real issue with those attunements, the ones I didn't care for were the ones where you had to kill certain raid bosses to open a later raid. It wasn't something you could work on and enjoy in smaller guild groups and such, it took a full on raid group which always took most of the enjoyment I had out of it.

Yeah, totally agree there. Not going to pretend that finding that balance is easy, but it kinda felt like they threw the baby out with the bathwater when they switched to the difficulty tier model.

[Doffen]

I need classic now, because forums will be hilarious when it launches.

[Adlian]

I will be glad when classic is out. People will have a good choice in what they want to play. The only question is how people can access the game, do they attach it to an existing sub for the main game etc.

I highly guess that it will be tied to the BFA subscription so you can play both with the same subscription. Price unchanged. Some "leaks" suggested that the Classic sub will be cheaper than the regular one.

[Deleted]

Last I looked Live still drops just about as many raid as Vanilla did for most expansions. Lets not fool ourselves, raiding hasn't changed much over the years, with a separate difficulty or just one you spend the bulk of your time killing the same thing over and over again. I really enjoy Vanilla, but lets not act like it was some super unique content or anything. Stuff stayed unbeaten for most people due to time constraints, lack of care to do it, or they more or less got a late start. Even I managed to get in AQ40 runs and my guild didn't do anything outside of ZG and Ony here and there.

Which is good thing. Unbeaten content have giant value for the game. I hate concept of multiple difficulty levels. I completly lost any drive to raid beocuse of it. Now i just finish LFR than quit game and wait for new patch. In past i would never quit becouse there was always unbetedn content for me. And no i do no consider new difficulty new content. It is same content.