Why do people have a problem with titanforging?

[Deleted]

People keep saying it's bad but I don't get why it is. I like it when I get a good upgrade.

Gear inflation.
It removes content or makes it obsolete - sure it can also open new content for you, but if you are doing the content already you don't care about that anyways.
No sense of pride and acomplishment getting a titanforge, it's pure luck - nothing I personally did in game, outside of looting the item had any effect on it.
Non-forged items, are like bad azerite armour, it just feels bad to loot, unless you are super undergeared.


The thing that pisses me off the most, is the fact that there is no player choice involved in forges, a monkey could play this game and get the highest ilvl - if all you do is wq and pet battles, then surely 340 and the plethora of free 370's should be more than fine?
Don't know why its necessary to have the amount of ilvl equity we have in game at the moment, make epics feel epic again, and let me enjoy the gearing process for longer than 2 days. It's like d3, where you log in, rush max lvl and bing bong 15 h played later you're fully decked, and then people go complain that there is nothing to do.

[ToxicFlame]

And you have just confirmed my original point: the problem is with expectations. You are chasing a dream. You are chasing something that may be mathematically possible, but its probability is infinitesimally low.

But suppose you convince me and I agree titanforging is bad. Suppose you go on to convince Blizzard as well, who scrap it in the next patch. Now BiS is whatever base item is the best for each slot. That is realistically achieveable. Would you be happy with that gear?

I have been pre titanforging and I will be if they ever remove it. Why wouldn't I be?


Although to be fair my problem from the beginning wasn't that I don't want tf. I think tf is a cool thing if it allows me to skip but isn't the only way to get the best item. As I have said many times before, I don't mind rng in order to skip grind as long as there is also a way to realistically grind to the same ceiling if rng isn't in my favor

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[Naked Snake]

Gear inflation.

I still don't know what people mean by that.

It removes content

No. It doesn't.

No sense of pride and acomplishment getting a titanforge, it's pure luck - nothing I personally did in game, outside of looting the item had any effect on it.

The same can be said for any item drop.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is that, before titanforging and all the other versions, it was possible. Blizzard made the decision to make it significantly more difficult to the point of it being almost impossible to ever finish gearing your character, even for a little while, and there are players who want it back.

There is a tiny minority of players who would even be able to ever get BiS.

[Deleted]

Reading this post, seems like mythic raiders have forbidden titanforge items, and every other content in the game is the neverding titanforge party.
Last week I had 395 mythic belt from Taloc (92.1 percentile as resto druid healer in warcraft logs in that boss... Alanon Uldum-EU) and I feel zero regrets or shame for have that luck, when i was wearing a 360.
And knowing that other people can have it from running a +5 Key, affects me or bothers me in absolutely nothing.

All I see in this debate is classism/elitism and not wanting regular HC players like myself, trying to do mythic raiding.
I expect mockery of the fact that my guild is only 7/8 HC and 1/8MM... and i could't care less. (Modest guild with working adult obligations, struggle to find 20 people who can raid in an afternoon hour when everybody else raids 22:00 to 00:30).

The point should be to encourage more people to do progession content, and not lock them out or treat it like is a private club.

Sorry my bad english, I try to express myself the better I can to make it undestandable.

And heres the problem, because people CAN do m5 and get the same itemlvl.
Reason to raid was to clear the Raid ! See the Endboss ! Kill the Endboss ! and don't forget these stylish T.sets !!
Now with 4 different Difficulties and no big bossfight changes between the difficulties the only reason to go for higher difficulties is Gear.
This leads to Point 2, cant find people to raid with because less people raid nowaday because ... well .. why should i go for myhtic ?
For the gear ? no reason because titforge exists. Best example on my priest. Did that WQ that offered that lookingglass Use Crit for X sec.
Got it titforged 350 plus socket . NICE ! Even Uldir mythic won't drop something better .. so .. nice ? Got 380 Haste/Mastery staff out of the weekly slot machine ... So ... why go Uldir mythic ? For the fame ? theres no fame in it anymore, because 8.1.5 is around the corner...
For the story\lore ? well ... theres lfr ...
For the stylish T.set ? Gone ... we have a stylish Set thats not classoriented.

So .. as a raider with heavy focus on raiding, because its what you like to do, doesn't it scare you that the raiderbase shrinks ?
Well ... its not a problem for lfr/nhc/hc. It doesnt affect the most part of the playerbase but the mythic\not\hardcore\raiding\community suffers heavily.

This is whats all about in this Thread.
The OP says Titforge is nice, because i log in 1h every week and am happy about nice gear upgrades. Thats fun for me. There can't be anything bad about TF , can't you see ? The whole system is perfect !
The 10h/week actively raiding nhc and dipping into hc Part > WF is nice, system is good, but i can see that Titforge shouldn't be that high.
The mythic raiding community > Titforge is shit , Why do i raid Uldir mythic ? Whats the reason to farm 2h Riverbud agi/pots or spend 50k gold per week on Uldir mythic ? Why ? With a cap on ilvl 400 .. why bother ?

[Weeps]

If you're pro-titanforging, that's ok with me. I can understand that side of things.

I'm asking you to understand my side of things... as someone who is anti-wf/tf.

1) As someone who played since classic, i enjoyed the prestige of wearing really powerful gear that only raiders of highest difficulty could get. It's like having the rarest mount in the game, you're gonna ride it to show off. As you should.

Not only that, I drooled at gear that even higher level raiders were wearing. "Damn, I wish I was on a Cutting Edge team."

2) It's easier to balance the game. Homogenization of ilvl makes it easier to get into specific groups in LFG.

3) If you raid normal, you can come outta there with 370 ilvl. Wtf? I thought ilvl of normal gear was 355? This makes heroic raids feel like... flex raiding back in MoP. Heroic is stupid easy once you past an ilvl threshold as a group.

You take away that, raids become much more honest and challenging.

That is all I can think of right now, runnin' on little sleep so forgive me, fellas.

[ToxicFlame]

I still don't know what people mean by that.

same thing people mean when they say inflation in terms of money. When everyone has at least 1 million dollar income per month tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars suddenly mean nothing. Also having 1 billion is suddenly not as special anymore.
Same applies to ilvl. If everyone has 370 ilvl then 370 ilvl is nothing and 385 is not as special anymore.

There is a tiny minority of players who would even be able to ever get BiS.

If you look at all the wow players, yes but that's because only a tiny minority of wow players raid.
If you look at raiders, then no getting bis wasn't that uncommon before tf

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[Naked Snake]

same thing people mean when they say inflation in terms of money. When everyone has at least 1 million dollar income per month tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars suddenly mean nothing. Also having 1 billion is suddenly not as special anymore.
Same applies to ilvl. If everyone has 370 ilvl then 370 ilvl is nothing and 385 is not as special anymore.

Oh so it's a variation of the "other people get good gear, and that harms my experience" argument.

The idea that somehow more people having better gear is a bad thing is totally bogus.

[ToxicFlame]

Oh so it's a variation of the "other people get good gear, and that harms my experience" argument.

The idea that somehow more people having better gear is a bad thing is totally bogus.

What's bogus is people getting rewards they didn't earn.

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[Bocek]

I can see some arguments for and against titan forging and me personally I could not care either way if its left in or taken out. If I had to pick I would say take it out due to the fact it makes gearing decisions harder in game.

The one argument I just don't get is the BiS one and being done once you hit it. Are you really saying that once you hit BiS you stop raiding? You aren't done just because you have BiS, you should be helping the rest of your raid get their upgrades. People really need to treat BiS and best in slot non TF/WF and then think of TF/WF as a reward for sticking around and helping the rest of your raid out. Checking out once you have BiS is a fairly selfish approach.

[ZazuuPriest]

A guy doing only LFR would need a 9x forge on every single slot to even match what the guy doing Mythic is getting and that's ignoring the guy doing Mythic getting any forges. This is a ridiculous argument.

People like to act like it's the end of the world because someone has one item that is much higher than the content that they are doing, but in reality that is still one out of 16 (15 if 2h) items.

its a ridiculous argument to say that its bad that any random turd can luck into the best gear in the game instead of going back to a token system or something similar where the best players can actually work towards a goal instead of praying at the feet of rng? ok then...

[Naked Snake]

What's bogus is people getting rewards they didn't earn.

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I've asked before, who determines whether someone has earned something or not? I play my own account. As long as no one else plays my account, I earned everything on that account. If I kill a boss, and the boss drops something, I earned it.

[Asrialol]

The majority of the playerbase (casuals who barely touch normal mode in raids or even mythic dungeons) are the ones who enjoy titanforge I believe. The minority that raids heroic and up don't like having to feel obligated to refarm stuff I guess.

[Naked Snake]

The majority of the playerbase (casuals who barely touch normal mode in raids or even mythic dungeons) are the ones who enjoy titanforge I believe. The minority that raids heroic and up don't like having to feel obligated to refarm stuff I guess.

They aren't obligated to do it though.

[zharkos]

in mop when i got a thunderforge it felt like a neat little bonus that you could get sometimes. it wasnt high enough to make or break the experience
now if i dont get a 380 piece from my lfr, normal, heroic, or warfront run i won't be able to get into a guild

[Cyram]

If you're pro-titanforging, that's ok with me. I can understand that side of things.

I'm asking you to understand my side of things... as someone who is anti-wf/tf.

1) As someone who played since classic, i enjoyed the prestige of wearing really powerful gear that only raiders of highest difficulty could get. It's like having the rarest mount in the game, you're gonna ride it to show off. As you should.

Not only that, I drooled at gear that even higher level raiders were wearing. "Damn, I wish I was on a Cutting Edge team."

2) It's easier to balance the game. Homogenization of ilvl makes it easier to get into specific groups in LFG.

3) If you raid normal, you can come outta there with 370 ilvl. Wtf? I thought ilvl of normal gear was 355? This makes heroic raids feel like... flex raiding back in MoP. Heroic is stupid easy once you past an ilvl threshold as a group.

You take away that, raids become much more honest and challenging.

That is all I can think of right now, runnin' on little sleep so forgive me, fellas.

1) Just go raid Mythic and enjoy the prestige of having the Mythic set and the "Mythic" green word written on the set, plus the transmog and... title? idk. Having someone TF a 380 out of anything isn't taking away prestige from your Cutting Edge FoS.

[ramayana1423]

Titanforging is a cancer on this game. Completely breaks the reward structure that MMOs have been built on forever, do harder stuff, get better rewards. Titanforging has turned the game into a giant slot machine.

[Mafic]

Titanforging breaks the gearing and reward structure of the game. It goes against everything a MMORPG stands for.

[ovm33]

1) As someone who played since classic, i enjoyed the prestige of wearing really powerful gear that only raiders of highest difficulty could get. It's like having the rarest mount in the game, you're gonna ride it to show off. As you should.

Not only that, I drooled at gear that even higher level raiders were wearing. "Damn, I wish I was on a Cutting Edge team."

TLDR: The relative power levels of raiders vs non-raiders hasn't changed in 10 years at least.
TLDR2: Even in vanilla it was possible to get a BiS item without raiding.

I feel you man. but times have changed. I remember on the day LFD released and I queue'd up for my first one aiming for the perky pug. I was full on BiS Ulduar 25 man gear. I was one of the best geared Prot Pally's in the world... It was Drak'theron Keep. Just after zoning in the healer says in party chat: "Holy shit! Look at the tanks health!" I proceeded to big dick pull everything up to the first boss to show them what a real man could do. Ah... nostalgia.

However:

The thing is the really powerful gear is still reserved for the best players. Your average Mythic raider is what..? ilvl 380-390? What's the average casual? Ilvl 350-360 at the most?

That's 30 item levels.

Let's go back to Wrath as it's the content I'm most experienced with as I was pushing Battlegroup firsts raid leading.

5 man Heroics dropped ilvl 200 epics off the final boss. You fill up a couple of holes with ilvl 200 badge gear. Add in crafted items also at ilvl 200. A few thousand gold on a few items off the AH, suck through a couple of weeks of arenas and bam! You're ilvl 200 without ever stepping a single foot into a raid. That's the exact same ilvl as 10 man Naxx raider. (Which is what we required of new applicants and the reason I remember it so well.)

A fully BiS Naxx 25 raider would be approximately ilvl 215 (with the 226 weapon off KT.)

That's 15 item levels.

Add in a made up "mythic" level for Naxx that dropped full 226. (Which was actually Ulduar level.)

There's your approximately 30 ilvl difference.


The relative power levels between raiders and non raiders hasn't changed since 2008 at least.

I understand the complaint about never being able to achieve BiS due to RNG. However, I believe Blizz made the decision to help keep casuals subbed. And while earlier in the thread I made someone barf saying it: Casuals pay the bills. That carrot has to be there - to keep them grinding away the world quests / the weekly world boss / the LFR / warfronts / etc. It's best, at least in Blizz's eyes, for the overall health of the game.

It's a business decision. The 10% of player's who feel "slighted" by the fact joe blow the pet battle man getting a 395 isn't worth losing the 90% of the population that never sees the inside of a current tier Mythic.

I've brought this point up multiple times and no one has addressed it...

It was possible to get multiple BiS items without raiding... even in Vanilla. For an example please see:

https://www.wowhead.com/item=14551/e...uards#comments

(I know about this one specifically because my level 54 warlock paid for his Dreadsteed mats and a real sweet soul shard bag from it. lol)

[WolfRider]

Okay, I didn't read all the posts but most of them say the same:
- why should I (as an individual player) go to Mythic Raid if I can randomly loot gear with the same iLvl in Mythic+ dungeons or World Quests?

Is this summing up the player mentality these days? Me, Myself and I? Selfish? Greed?

I saw these changes the last 6 years, people joining a guild with a good PVE progress, cleaning the raid, looting their BiS and then 3 possibilites:
- continue
- leave for a guild with a faster progression
- making a pause (because of self accomplishment)

And believe, those who continued are representing something like 70%, which created "holes" in guilds' roasters, sometimes making guilds stop the raid progression, sometimes making guilds merge. But those suffered from that disease called "selfishness" of the player, losing another 30% of their roaster etc... etc...

And here we are, 2018, with a lot (a ton) of players whining because they don't find (their own) motivation to raid Mythic and they're pointing out the Titanforge system (something existing for years by the way).

The (end)game is not intended to content the player's thirst of gear, it's designed to push the player into challenges.

There's (appart the LFR) 3 raid difficulties related to your roaster's general level itemization (and skill/coordination). That's old news.
If your roaster is over geared for a difficulty, you can go for the next. That's old news.
The loots are not an end, they are a way to make the challenge easier. That's old news.
The more experienced your roaster is, the faster you'll clean the raid. That's old news.
Once you reached the best of your roaster on a difficulty (and there's no possibilities to go further) you can try the raid's achievements, they are designed to it. That's old news.

So unless all the people who are complaing about how it is ridiculously easy to drop high iLvl items out of Mythic Raids did every raid achievement, I think the problem is between the chair and the screen.

And don't forget, we only had ONE opening raid for now this expansion.

Titanforge is RNG, if you're lucky enough to see Titanforge raining, then whatever.
Don't forget that you're not alone, other people are still looking for that peculiar Trinket or ring in Uldir after 4 weeks of cleaning the mythic difficulty.
Or some other people are less geared than you but are still present every raid because they love the team building, the challenge.

This game is not the Sims and designed to dress your character with big iLvl shiny numbers.

As I'm experiencing this expansion, I don't see big differences with Legion.
In fact I think it's better than Legion. The story is way more interesting, the areas too, I don't feel a big draft in the gameplay, or classes.

I just feel it's the first patch of the expansion, and people tends to forget that it was the same during every first patch and raid tier.
Items felt less powerful than their previous gear (which was the best of the previous expansion's last raid tier).
Classes feel powerless (but they are forgeting that they will empower with the expansion's progress).

Thanks to WF/TF, I was able (in Legion) to do some LFG ToS HC, because my schedule did not allowed me to raid with my Guild.
And because LFG are asking a specific iLvl, that I couldn't get in raid, farming Mythic+ kept me in the game. And sometimes WF/TF items help to reach what was needed.

The real problem today is not WF/TF, it's that raid tier sets and bonuses disappeared. It was the reason why you were happy to drop something in your raid difficulty, because it brought something extra in your gameplay that you could'nt find in M+ or WQ gear (even if the iLvl was higher).

[HuxNeva]

I like to use the example of the arcano crystal from Legion...
That trinket was best in slot from day one all the way to Mythic Argus.

Which is completely irrelevant to the discussion as all its power came from the over-generous base stats. It actually scaled very little with ilvl.