Why are people so much against basic balance changes?

[Tonkaden]

I'm almost to this point too. If they just use the 1.12 codebase instead of the 1.12 talents with time locked dungeons and raids, then I've no interest. I want to Play as close a version to Vanilla as possible, not Blizzard's approved version of a private server.

You are missing a very glaring detail.

Vanilla wasn't just one patch bro. 1.12 was the most balanced. Thats why its used by private servers. That is why its being used by blizzard.

Would you want 1.0 where using the spirit rez meant 100% durability loss or 11.1 where it was lowered to 25%? They also removed reagent costs for mark, fort, and ai. There was no maraudon. No option to hide cloak / helm. No Gurubashi arena. How about starting at 1.3 which added DM, Meeting stones, dungeon player caps? Good? Alright!!!

Okay lets go with 1.3. Whoops, no Priest or Hunter quests. No honor system either. No? Sounds bad right? Fine fine, lets go 1.4 so we have these things. Oh shit. Guess what? if we go 1.4, we dont have battlegrounds! Nor do you have BWL, Darkmoon Faire, or the warrior / warlock talent revamps. You played a warrior? You really want 1.5 so your warrior is way more useful? You want to kill Nef in BWL? Sweet! Lets skip right to 1.6 so we have battlegrounds, new raids, AND a couple revamps. I play a hunter though. Why would I want to play a version of the game where im gimped in certain things when they did a revamp for my class in 1.7. I say we go with that one. I mean come on bro, Id love to experience ZG and Arathi Basin again. Good. 1.7 it is. Thats final!








... or is it?


I just remembered something. AQ40 was probably my favorite raid. And my main was a Holy Pally. AQ was released in 1.9 along with the Paladin revamp. Id much rather that be the base for classic.



On a more serious note. Do you see the problem with trying to decide on one patch or the other. Lets be real. Anyone with a 1/4th of a brain minimum knew that they were NEVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER going to release cyclical patches. They were always going to pick a patch and roll with it. They without a doubt picked the right patch when it comes to picking one where things are the most balanced. As balanced as they could be anyways.

The ball is in their court. They better re-tune content around 1.12 or just stop now.

[Fascinate]

The ball is in their court. They better re-tune content around 1.12 or just stop now.

This is one of the biggest decisions they need to make, along with how they are going to be doing server tech (phasing etc).

My hope is they do progressive itemization which will help greatly with content difficulty, but then you have to take into account 1.12 talents/abilities.

Tough decisions to be sure, im kind of at the point where i dont care and am just glad they are doing it lol.

[Tonkaden]

Pretty sure you are a troll, yet I respond:

What challenge? Clearing Mythic and getting Gladiator R1. Thats the challenge. If you can show me that you achieve both of them, I accept that it probably isn't a big challenge for you. If you cant get those 2 things done, its probably because you are unable to do it. No need to deny it by saying "lol i dont play retail it's shit, I can easily do that". Post your feats on retail with evidence or stop "discussing" here.

It's like saying winning the Oscars is no challenge, I just don't want to do it because I dont like it, but it is super easy.

Not everyone plays the same. The worst thing blizzard has done outside of LFD/LFR was introducing 1,001 raid variations to appease the masses. It should have always stayed one raid difficulty. You are speaking of 2 things that less than 1% of players even do in WoW. Want to be top ranked in arena? Better reroll to one of the 3-4 classes that fit comps! Want to raid mythic in 8.0? Better switch off that Warrior!!!

And who said I don't play retail? I DO play retail. I will play til classic is out. Then I wont touch it again. The only reason i even play retail right now is to mount / pet / xmog farm. There is no sense of community with CZ. There is no sense of anything in WoW retail right now. Its pretty much a lobby game. Made 8m the first month. Got the long boy. Cleared heroic. Downed a couple easy bosses in mythic on a pug. Made it to 1900 rating. I don't really pvp much. I don't like grinding in PvP. I haven't since trying to go for high warlord in classic. Couldn't beat out the account sharing kids.

Just stahp bro.

[Kanegasi]

That's definitely wrong, it's still going to feel different even if the game content perfectly reproduces 1.12 patch.
One example: from Vanilla to MoP included, there was deliberate latency on server combat event processing. WoD onward, they have reworked their combat system to remove this latency as much as possible. This latency caused some situations such as wasting a CD on a dead character, or 2 mages mutually sheeping themselves. It can still happen on the live game, but with much, much lower probability.

I actually find that fascinating. Was that the original purpose of GCD?

[Khallid]

I think it sounds reasonable to ask for no changes. People who want vanilla must have nostalgia, and the more you revamp the game the less the nostalgia is going to work.

[Kherneas]

Release classic, fix bugs, but never ever balance classes or items, you'll just alienate the purists who've been asking for this for years.
They wanted classic, give them classic with all its balance problems, if they're unhappy it's their own fault.

[Captain Longstar]

They are not balancing classes for the classes sake.
They are balancing them according to the player who is behind the keyboard right now that doesn't understand what a combat rotation is or any RPG system like talents and professions work.

[Enkrypt]

It's like why some people are against marijuana. It's not the pot that's the danger, it's opening the "door" to doing other drugs, aka gateway.

Literally the same concept with changes to Classic. You make one change, you set a precedent, and then other changes will be perceived as justified.

I'll say again, the reason people are against is because of one keyword: changes.

[itstheduke]

What's wrong with Classic WoW having a 'hard mode'?

You can do 200 DPS as a feral druid in preraid gear, which is well above what is needed to clear shit so the only beef is gonna be community driven. You just need to understand how the spec works and play it properly, which a LOT of people just didn't.

There was a ret paladin running a guild on X private server because he knew he wouldn't get a raid spot as other specs so he made a guild and ran it himself.

None of these spec changes are "needed"; and the game could get boring just playing one of the 3 "uber DPS" classes; so branch out and mix it up. I'd imagine enough of the community will be bored with the "fill your raid with rogues and frost mages" style of raiding and there will be more esoteric outings organised.

If only there were more people like you.

Honestly, more people would be inclined to do this as long as nobody tries to turn classic WoW raiding into a competition.

[Maudib]

Why do classes have to be balanced? Why can't just enjoying the playstyle and abilities be enough? You didn't have to minmax to kill bosses... you simply had to spend time gearing properly. Heck many people keyboard turned. It's going to be just fine.

[Itisamuh]

Because doing any sort of balancing would mean that it is not classic anymore, so why bother even having the servers to begin with? I could maybe understand having things like group finder and whatnot, though even that would spark some controversy, but absolutely nothing about the gameplay itself should be different.

[Tonkaden]

The ball is in their court. They better re-tune content around 1.12 or just stop now.

This is one of the biggest decisions they need to make, along with how they are going to be doing server tech (phasing etc).

My hope is they do progressive itemization which will help greatly with content difficulty, but then you have to take into account 1.12 talents/abilities.

Tough decisions to be sure, im kind of at the point where i dont care and am just glad they are doing it lol.

Im not sure if changing itemization is the key. I think it would be a lot easier for them to scale world npcs and dungeon / raids. Im no developer. It just seems like they would have to scale both itemization and NPCs if they change itemization.

I think the blizzcon demo is going to give us some good info. We might get some insight on what they have done just based on how hard / easy it is to level the few levels in the demo.

[Maudib]

Because they want people to actually see how much Vanilla was bad and then go on the forums and tell them they never actually wanted classic so they can reply "we told you you wanted it but you didn't"

I think you are closer to the truth than you think... at least about how Blizzard feels Classic will do.

But it was the sweetest thing ever... to see the guy who said "You think you do, but you don't...." be the one who ate crow and be the one to announce Classic. I truly believe he will be the one who announces Classic BC as well... with something along the lines of... "Well, who'da thunk it! I guess you really DO know what you want!"

[Tonkaden]

Release classic, fix bugs, but never ever balance classes or items, you'll just alienate the purists who've been asking for this for years.
They wanted classic, give them classic with all its balance problems, if they're unhappy it's their own fault.

Eh you act like purists are the majority. They are the vocal majority , but are the minority as a whole. Hell. Id bet most of the vocal crowd have only played private servers.

Blizzard is definitely targeting more than purists. They are thinking long term here.

[FlubberPuddy]

Why do classes have to be balanced? Why can't just enjoying the playstyle and abilities be enough? You didn't have to minmax to kill bosses... you simply had to spend time gearing properly. Heck many people keyboard turned. It's going to be just fine.

Pretty sure because say if someone wants to DPS on a specific class in all content and they get told "lol no you're heals or gtfo" that is considered a problem.

Heck it's currently an issue in game's today, so saying it shouldn't be an issue is faux pas.

The vanilla wow class designer (Kevin Jordan who literally oversaw all 27 specs) himself said it was an issue and struggle to rectify the perception that certain classes "are not competitive".

I'm sure if the devs back then had the time to balance classes within Vanilla they would've, but with expansions and such that time had passed.

With that said, it will all depend on how the Classic team intends for Classic to be: Either a Museum/Snapshot of content/gameplay rules/items, or something to be tweaked upon within the ruleset/content/items of Classic.

[Fascinate]

Im not sure if changing itemization is the key. I think it would be a lot easier for them to scale world npcs and dungeon / raids. Im no developer. It just seems like they would have to scale both itemization and NPCs if they change itemization.

I think the blizzcon demo is going to give us some good info. We might get some insight on what they have done just based on how hard / easy it is to level the few levels in the demo.

Well not necessarily changing itemization, just having the gear match the raid cycle. But again even if they do that they would have to deal with talents/abilities from 1.12.

TBH world firsts arent going to matter anyways, im 100% cool if the raids are 5% easier because of mismatched raids/talents. I just want them to do whatever is easiest for them to get it quicker lol.

[Animalhouse]

Because this train of thought was what led us to the current state of the game. Wanting all classes/specs to do the same, to be the same, class homogenization in a nutshell.

Feral druids had their place. They were hybrids, they were not supposed to be top dpsers but they brought stuff and no other class/spec could bring, from the ability to switch to bear and OT for a while if needed, to the very needed innervate.

It was a different time, and anyone who really wants to play classic valued those differences. So... let Classic be Classic please kk?

This guy gets it. Hats off to you, I couldn't agree more.

Besides, Blizz has stated it WILL be 1.12 and the only thing fixed will be bug fixes. Period blank.
So, people can stop worrying it will be a "Frankenstein" Classic experience as one guy said. And those wanting to hijack Classic...go play on a customized PS.

[Maudib]

Pretty sure because say if someone wants to DPS on a specific class in all content and they get told "lol no you're heals or gtfo" that is considered a problem.

Heck it's currently an issue in game's today, so saying it shouldn't be an issue is faux pas.

The vanilla wow class designer (Kevin Jordan who literally oversaw all 27 specs) himself said it was an issue and struggle to rectify the perception that certain classes "are not competitive".

I'm sure if the devs back then had the time to balance classes within Vanilla they would've, but with expansions and such that time had passed.

With that said, it will all depend on how the Classic team intends for Classic to be: Either a Museum/Snapshot of content/gameplay rules/items, or something to be tweaked upon within the ruleset/content/items of Classic.

This isn't BfA we're talking about.. it's Classic. Anyone pulls that crap in Classic will be ploitely escorted to the main city of their choice to just sit around and twiddle their thumbs because we aren't going to have any of that.

And Vanilla did just fine as it was. It'll do just fine again. Classes are not "competetive"... they are cooperative.

[Tonkaden]

Well not necessarily changing itemization, just having the gear match the raid cycle. But again even if they do that they would have to deal with talents/abilities from 1.12.

TBH world firsts arent going to matter anyways, im 100% cool if the raids are 5% easier because of mismatched raids/talents. I just want them to do whatever is easiest for them to get it quicker lol.

Id rather them take a little bit, re-tune, and have the raids actually feel challenging. If they don't, we will be walking into MC with 10-12 players and clearing the place week 1-2 then twiddling our thumbs for weeks / months til bwl.

- - - Updated - - -

This guy gets it. Hats off to you, I couldn't agree more.

Besides, Blizz has stated it WILL be 1.12 and the only thing fixed will be bug fixes. Period blank.
So, people can stop worrying it will be a "Frankenstein" Classic experience as one guy said. And those wanting to hijack Classic...go play on a customized PS.

Why do people perpetuate shit that they never said. They said it would be 1.12. They haven't said fuck all of anything else about what it will or won't include.

They never once said it would be bug fixes only. Please provide sources with your info. I must have missed this breaking news about the ONLY thing changing is bugs.

[Fascinate]

Id rather them take a little bit, re-tune, and have the raids actually feel challenging. If they don't, we will be walking into MC with 10-12 players and clearing the place week 1-2 then twiddling our thumbs for weeks / months til bwl.

Ya its a hard decision, how long do we want them to work on this stuff to get it as close as possible? Its already been a year, i dont want it to take another.