Why do people have a problem with titanforging?

[Geckoo]

How does it harm the game? You failed to even make a compelling argument for that.

I don't think you care about compelling arguments at all, but is a fun topic to talk about anyway.

How does this matter? If you are 340 doing 340 stuff, how does getting an item that makes you 341 or 342 matter? Answer: it doesn't. Getting a WF every ~20 items barely boosts your overall ilvl and getting a TF is even less frequent than that. If you are only doing 340 stuff you'd probably need to run enough for a hundred items to drop for you to get upgrades (assuming you are full 340).

First, no need to diminish the impact is has. It's low, we agree on that. But even if it's low, is still negative in the longt term for the game.

Effort = reward should be the basic rule and each effort should have an apropiate reward. It doesn't really matter if the chance is low or if it just gives you 0.01 more average ilvl. A system that randomly gives a better reward for the same effort is not good for the game.

Wrong. Titan Forging / War Forging does reward effort. You want a 385 piece from doing Heroic Raid? Do the raid like 100 times and get 1 piece. That is a shit ton of effort.

Or you can get it on the first kill. That's the problem. Luck is not the same as effort.

Effort in this context would be if titanforging was a system to upgrade your items. You get your 'whatever' points from doing all types of content, when you have X points you can go back to the city and add 5 ilvl to any of your gear.

Then yes, after a a few weeks someone that just plays LFR can have a really high ilvl on one slot and that's fine, because he did in fact put the time for it, he saved his points and made a choice between raising his average ilvl across all his gear or getting one single slot to the top.

But that's not what we have here, what we have is RNG.

I would totally support an upgrade system like the one described BTW.

Who cares? If all the content you do only requires 385 ilvl (which btw it only requires mid 370s) it doesn't matter if you have "bis" or 385. People having OCD about not havin the absolute best gear possible is a personal issue not a game design issue.

Having a BiS list has nothing to do with OCD about not having that gear, because in fact, that rarely happened, is about having a finish line that feels realistic.

In the past you got your BiS gloves and that's it, good for you!
Now you get those same gloves, but RNG comes in and maybe they are BiS, maybe they are not, maybe they even have a gem slot!, or maybe you have another item on that slot that has a higher ilvl because of reasons... too much RNG involved.

Also, it doesn't really matter if you need it or not, you certainly don't need to be full BiS to be able to raid mythic (that would be stupid, right?), but having that kind of goals is a fun way to keep farming content interesting.

Titanforging fails to do that because, again, there is too much RNG involved, so it does the oposite. If the chance is too low, why even try? if it takes too long, why even bother? And that's a design problem. When they intentionally made BiS lists obsolete, did they consider if the replacement was fun or enjoyable or as with many changes the only thing they really cared about was time invested?

[Bhorin]

I don't think you care about compelling arguments at all, but is a fun topic to talk about anyway.

You claim "luck" isn't the same as effort, when realistically there is no difference between doing a boss 20 times for 20 tokens for a +5 ilvl upgrade and doing it 20 times with a 20% chance for the upgrade (20 kills ~= 5 items ~= 1 of 5 items are +5). It's just math. You look at the extreme and say "hey this guy got lucky!", but for each time he got it on the first try he gets another item on the 40th try instead of the 20th. It's the law of large numbers. Just get some basic statistics and you'll see this. RNG isn't actually RNG over a long enough period of time (e.g. rolling a 6 sided dice over and over your average roll is 3.5 even if you roll 6 the first time). If anything you'll likely get more ilvls via the badge system unless the tokens are barely given out to the point where you never get anything.

You deciding that the base level item isn't good enough for you is an OCD issue because you're worried about the small chance to upgrade instead of just the base item when in any realistic scenario that max roll item makes very little difference because no content requires it (aside from world first raiders trying to max ilvl going into next tier).

You can have goals that don't include titan forging even with titan forging in the game.. hard to believe but it is true. If you are a Mythic raider you can indeed aim for 385 in each slot and achieve said goal!

What you find "fun or enjoyable" is not what everyone finds fun or enjoyable, so even invoking this argument is pointless at best. Personally, I do not chase TF, but do prefer to have them than to not have them (specifically because they are a nice boost once in a while), but I also don't agonize over each piece of loot I did or didn't get or ones that did or didn't forge/socket/etc.

[Raelbo]

LFR Hero in a Nutshell.

You do realise that if you are resorting to ad hominem you may as well just acknowledge that you lack the capacity to actually engage in a rational debate. In a nutshell.

First of all if NORMAL and HC RAIDERS are doing TALOC and MOTHER MYTH due to TF from NORMAL/HC, they are GETTING SAME GEAR, no matter if it isnt Zul-Myhtrax-Ghuun loot table, it is STILL MYTHIC GEAR.

If you compare the pile of loot that is accumulated between groups running normal, heroic and mythic, the pile of mythic gear will be a lot more powerful than pile of heroic gear which will be a lot more powerful than the pile of normal gear. That is what is important and relevant. The fact that there may be a few overlapping isn't going to change that.

So "normal or hc raiders were getting the same gear as mythic raiders, but that isn't what is happening" is pure BS

The fact that normal or hc raiders have one or two pieces that are of the same quality as gear that is typical for raiders in the higher difficulty does not mean that they "are getting the same gear".

"The probability" + PL on 20-30 players doing HC and be able reset after reset to trade TF item is enough, so another BS.

What exactly are you trying to argue here? As @Bhorin so eloquently demonstrated, over time there will remain a sizeable gap in gear between normal, hc and mythic raiders.

Progression is ruined because it isn't a real progression, you do the boss for the loot that virtually is better than yours, if TF make you having the same itm lvl or even more there is no progression is just bruteforce it with itm lvl, cough EN Myth cleared in 1 day with people geared with itm lvl same or better than Xavius Myth cough

Every single time I have done the exercise of actually going and looking at the armory pages of the guys in guilds like Method, the vast majority of their gear was obtained from Mythic raids. Sure, between 20 raiders you can expect to see maybe 5-6 pieces of TF gear from Heroic, but in the grand scheme of things it isn't a significant factor in raid progression.

The real effect of TF is over the long term where guilds aren't one-shotting bosses, but are slowly accumulating the odd piece of TF gear to keep their gear ticking until they eventually beat the boss.

You have 15 slot if you have all "normal" gear you will have literally 355 itm lvl and it is ok, but if you are a LFR peeps that must have 340 for doing only LFR you would have 340 but lets say that you get 3 395 [just for example] you basically get from 340 to 351, and normal is 355, you get too much itm lvl for doing nothing, and spamming stuff while afk is not effort.

Look, if you're going to quote an example, at least use one which is remotely viable. Honestly, I'd love to see an actual example of someone who has 3 x 395 ilevel items from LFR. The odds of getting an item from LFR which would be better than the item from Normal is pretty low. The odds of getting a 395 is ludicrously small. For the average LFR raider, WF/TF is adding 1-2 ilevels, not 11. I would say that even the top 1% of luckiest LFR raiders aren't getting more than a 3-4 ilevel increase.

Secondly, your assertion that people get gear for "doing nothing" and "spamming stuff while afk" is just nonsense (how the hell do you even "spam stuff" while afk?). The vast majority of people in LFR do actually participate, even if they're not all that good. And as far as I'm concerned, anyone who is prepared to exercise enough patience to get through LFR has earned whatever gear they got. For someone to sit through enough LFR to get 3x395 pieces - hell that guy deserves a bloody medal.

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First, no need to diminish the impact is has. It's low, we agree on that. But even if it's low, is still negative in the longt term for the game.

Effort = reward should be the basic rule and each effort should have an apropiate reward. It doesn't really matter if the chance is low or if it just gives you 0.01 more average ilvl. A system that randomly gives a better reward for the same effort is not good for the game.

A single piece of gear is pretty meaningless. Your power comes from having a good set of gear, which is the result of sustained effort. Random luck over the kind of time committments that are required to obtain a decent reward (ie a good set of gear) tends to cancel out and have very little overall effect.

[Deleted]

Impossible to explain RPG Progression to casual players.

Luck and Welfare epics no matter the effort.

[Deleted]

Also he didn't demonstrate nothing, assuming stuff that aren't the reality is pretty different than " he eloquently demonstrate "

[Raelbo]

Also he didn't demonstrate nothing, assuming stuff that aren't the reality is pretty different than " he eloquently demonstrate "

This coming from the person who is trying to argue that TF is bad because of LFR raiders with 3x395 pieces

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Impossible to explain RPG Progression to casual players.

No. What is impossible is trying to explain reason and logic to an individual whose argumentation skills fail to extend beyond ad hominem

[Deleted]

This coming from the person who is trying to argue that TF is bad because of LFR raiders with 3x395 pieces

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No. What is impossible is trying to explain reason and logic to an individual who has to rely on Ad Hominem.

LFR example is just the most " irritating commonly " isn't hard to understand but I get you are having issues.


But even if a HC raider get a 385 instead of a 370 is still an issue.



But Nixxiom(?) gave the perfect example about TF issue, if you don't study and get the same grade as someone who studied isn't fair, and doesn't makes you willing to improve.


" But I don't care about Mythic Raiding or HC or M+ "

Fantastic, so why letting you get the same loot if you don't use it? What do you need for? Completing a WQ 0.3 sec faster ? Whoa.


Meanwhile if we have TF/WF a la MoP, so basically a little +10 itm, and resize the itm lvl gap between LFR NM HC MH, we still would have that " extra rng boost " without having the problem of " need to fish TF procs on lower difficulty "

[Deleted]

Also everybody here beside you 2 and the troll, what a team, understand pretty much the basic concept of logic and RPG


Nevertheless we eager to waste time reading your 'ex falso sequitur quodlibet" roundup

[Bhorin]

LFR example is just the most " irritating commonly " isn't hard to understand but I get you are having issues.


But even if a HC raider get a 385 instead of a 370 is still an issue.



But Nixxiom(?) gave the perfect example about TF issue, if you don't study and get the same grade as someone who studied isn't fair, and doesn't makes you willing to improve.


" But I don't care about Mythic Raiding or HC or M+ "

Fantastic, so why letting you get the same loot if you don't use it? What do you need for? Completing a WQ 0.3 sec faster ? Whoa.


Meanwhile if we have TF/WF a la MoP, so basically a little +10 itm, and resize the itm lvl gap between LFR NM HC MH, we still would have that " extra rng boost " without having the problem of " need to fish TF procs on lower difficulty "

His analogy actually fails upon scrutiny because his example would actually be: test 1 (you get max of C grade), test 2 (max of B grade) and test 1 (you get A grade). But for any test you can do extra credit to raise your grade, e.g. to go from test 1 to B you need to do 100 units of extra credit and test 1 to A you need to do 1,000 units. And Test 2 to A is 100 units of extra credit. Then you can take test 1 with no extra credit and get the A. So yeah, you can take the easiest test then put in 1,000 units of effort to get the A, but it's much less effort to study and do test 3 for the A.

Using a shitty flawed analogy that doesn't really encompass the problem doesn't make your point valid.

Nor does you saying we don't understand the "basic concept of logic and RPG" when it appears apparent that you do not understand logic and being condescending prick on top of that (though I find this part amusing, but it isn't a great way to actually get your point across). You're so caught up in each individual item that you don't realize that to make your character powerful you need a set of items and if one item takes 1 drop to go full and the rest of your gear takes 5,000 drops each slot then your effort overall is still like 4,700 items per slot.

[Raelbo]

LFR example is just the most " irritating commonly " isn't hard to understand but I get you are having issues.

There is nothing "common" about people in getting 3 x 395. The odds are like 1 in a billion. It isn't hard to understand, but yes, I get that you are having issues.

But even if a HC raider get a 385 instead of a 370 is still an issue.

No it's not. It's a total non-issue unless someone wants to turn it into an issue for no good reason - which you have entirely failed, repeatedly to provide.

But Nixxiom(?) gave the perfect example about TF issue, if you don't study and get the same grade as someone who studied isn't fair, and doesn't makes you willing to improve.

But you don't get the same gear. You keep on arguing that people in lower difficulties are getting the "same" gear. It's a fundamentally false premise for your entire argument. If you don't study and still get one or two questions correct that doesn't mean you're going to get an A like the person who did study. .

" But I don't care about Mythic Raiding or HC or M+ "

Fantastic, so why letting you get the same loot if you don't use it? What do you need for? Completing a WQ 0.3 sec faster ? Whoa.

A fundamental principle of an MMO is that you should always be progressing. I am not advocating that people participating in lower difficulty content should expect to become geared like a mythic raider, but getting one or two pieces of decent TF gear is not going to result in that at all. So where is the problem? In your mind.

Meanwhile if we have TF/WF a la MoP, so basically a little +10 itm, and resize the itm lvl gap between LFR NM HC MH, we still would have that " extra rng boost " without having the problem of " need to fish TF procs on lower difficulty "

Anyone who thinks that they "need to fish" for TF procs on lower difficulty is not very smart. What does make sense, and has always made sense, is to farm lower levels of content until you have filled most of your gear slots with gear from that tier (for example, if you're raiding mythic, you should be clearing heroic until all your raiders have at least a heroic raid item in almost every slot). But that doesn't mean you need to keep doing this for a very low chance of a high TF proc. And if you are doing this, it's not a problem with the system, it's a problem with you.

I have explained it to you, and many others on this forum have done the same, but if you choose to be willfully ignorant and insist wanting to argue your point in the face of reason and logic, sorry, but it's your own problem if you feel like you're not enjoying the game because of all those hours wasted fishing for TF in LFR, normal and heroic.

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Also everybody here beside you 2 and the troll, what a team, understand pretty much the basic concept of logic and RPG

And again, back to the ad hominem because, you know, clearly you lack an an actual argument. Good job.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

in simple terms: they took a RPG with a clear progression part and made a slot machine out of it. Better Buy a ticket to Vegas.

[Naked Snake]

in simple terms: they took a RPG with a clear progression part and made a slot machine out of it. Better Buy a ticket to Vegas.

There's still a clear progression path, and gear in the game has always been a slot machine.

[Gungnir]

I don't understand how this thread is still going after each side has presented arguments ad infinitum.
Older players that are fond of RPG's dislike the system. Newer players that only play 1 hour per day and expect to have the same progression absolutely loves the system.

That's just how it's going to be, there's nothing more or less that can be said about it.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

There's still a clear progression path, and gear in the game has always been a slot machine.

LFR dudes like you may not understand but there are ppl that playing to compare with others and that is impossible with RNG on top of RNG. Try to get your 100% logs agist some one with +4 sokets and titanforged BIS trinket from a Worldbos ( Hello ArcanoCrystal )

[Naked Snake]

LFR dudes like you may not understand but there are ppl that playing to compare with others and that is impossible with RNG on top of RNG. Try to get your 100% logs agist some one with +4 sokets and titanforged BIS trinket from a Worldbos ( Hello ArcanoCrystal )

So are you not able to kill bosses?

[Feral Druid ist Op]

So are you not able to kill bosses?

I can... playing on a W. top 150 Guild, that does not change that Bads parse way higher by sheer randomness, like i said slot machine.

[Naked Snake]

I can... playing on a W. top 150 Guild, that does not change that Bads parse way higher by sheer randomness, like i said slot machine.

Oh yeah I'm sure they have no skill at all.

Who cares who ranks higher as long as you are able to clear the content? Are you jealous of their ranking?

[Ztranger]

I for one enjoy TF, makes it easier to do higher keys on m+

[Gungnir]

Oh yeah I'm sure they have no skill at all.

Who cares who ranks higher as long as you are able to clear the content? Are you jealous of their ranking?

It's clear that he values competition instead of "just" clearing the raid. People are allowed to have different goals than you do.
Why are you still trying to argue and bait replies out of people by the way?
You've been doing it for 59 pages and you've always been dismissive about anything anyone says that doesn't align with your own view.

It's pretty thinly veiled so I suggest you reel it in before you end up getting in trouble with the mods.

[Doffen]

Still going around with my 345 wep... People who complains about TF can go away, some of us doesn't even get the base ilvl!! Gotten loot 5 weeks straight on zek'voz(hc) yesterday I got belt...and belt!!! Never weapon. And don't you dare mentioning keystones!! Silly rant off.

No seriously, people who complain about TF don't know rng. You don't need TF. It's just a bonus. Be happy you got base item. Maybe you get the TF version another day. It's already a lot less TF going around than in Legion, don't make them take it away completely.